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This really has to do with a misunderstanding of the use of the word “true.”
We tend to think of it in terms of True vs False, since we hear of false gods. A false god is “a god” that is't really a god (mighty one) at all. It is perceived as a God by some, but in reality, it has no power, so it is a false god…eyes it has, but it cannot see, ears it has, but it cannot hear, etc.
So when we see “true God” we are pre conditioned to take that to mean the “opposite” of “false God.”
But that is incorrect.
If I said that James is my ONLY TRUE FRIEND, it does not mean all my other friends are “false friends,” as if “true” in this sense were the opposite of false.
Jehovah is the only TRUE God since relatively speaking, he is the only “true” mighty one, without lack of might. While Jesus is a “mighty one” he is not the “almighty one” and hence not the only “true” mighty one, relatively speaking.
Quote (david @ June 08 2011,12:35) This really has to do with a misunderstanding of the use of the word “true.” We tend to think of it in terms of True vs False, since we hear of false gods. A false god is “a god” that is't really a god (mighty one) at all. It is perceived as a God by some, but in reality, it has no power, so it is a false god…eyes it has, but it cannot see, ears it has, but it cannot hear, etc.
So when we see “true God” we are pre conditioned to take that to mean the “opposite” of “false God.”
But that is incorrect.
If I said that James is my ONLY TRUE FRIEND, it does not mean all my other friends are “false friends,” as if “true” in this sense were the opposite of false.
Jehovah is the only TRUE God since relatively speaking, he is the only “true” mighty one, without lack of might. While Jesus is a “mighty one” he is not the “almighty one” and hence not the only “true” mighty one, relatively speaking.
Perhaps Greek and Hebrew are different or there are older English definitions of “true” but according to the online Merriam-Websters dictionary true is defined to mean essential, actual, steadfast, properly called, ideal, belonging ton the same group, legitimater, accurate, narrow, and the like.So the one true God is the one legitimate God or the one god worthy of worship.
I find it hard to say that any god that is not worthy of worship is a god as opposed to merely called a god for one reason or another. That would make them illegitimate God's in the sence that Jahovah is God.
And so Kerwin, you would be calling God's only begotten Son, our Lord, King and Savior, an “illegitimate mighty one”.
Don't you agree that Jesus IS a “mighty one” who is not “THE ALMIGHTY ONE”? Jesus IS the god who was with THE God in the beginning. He IS the only begotten god. Do you think Jesus is a “false god”?
Paul says there are many gods and lords, both in heaven and on earth. I believe him. And like him, I know that Jehovah is the only “true” God and therefore the only One deserving of worship from us, because He is God Most High, God Almighty, and the God of gods.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2011,10:00) And so Kerwin, you would be calling God's only begotten Son, our Lord, King and Savior, an “illegitimate mighty one”. Don't you agree that Jesus IS a “mighty one” who is not “THE ALMIGHTY ONE”? Jesus IS the god who was with THE God in the beginning. He IS the only begotten god. Do you think Jesus is a “false god”?
Paul says there are many gods and lords, both in heaven and on earth. I believe him. And like him, I know that Jehovah is the only “true” God and therefore the only One deserving of worship from us, because He is God Most High, God Almighty, and the God of gods.
Jesus is not worthy of worship though he is worthy of homage. Since Jesus is not worthy of worship he an illegitimate god in the sence of being worshiped and thus departs from the typical model which is Jahovah.If a person worships Jesus then they make him a false God. note I am using the word “God” in that sentence to mean God in the sense Jahovah is God not in the sense a judge, angel, demon, etc. is god.
Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2011,23:34) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2011,10:00) And so Kerwin, you would be calling God's only begotten Son, our Lord, King and Savior, an “illegitimate mighty one”. Don't you agree that Jesus IS a “mighty one” who is not “THE ALMIGHTY ONE”? Jesus IS the god who was with THE God in the beginning. He IS the only begotten god. Do you think Jesus is a “false god”?
Paul says there are many gods and lords, both in heaven and on earth. I believe him. And like him, I know that Jehovah is the only “true” God and therefore the only One deserving of worship from us, because He is God Most High, God Almighty, and the God of gods.
Jesus is not worthy of worship though he is worthy of homage. Since Jesus is not worthy of worship he an illegitimate god in the sence of being worshiped and thus departs from the typical model which is Jahovah.If a person worships Jesus then they make him a false God. note I am using the word “God” in that sentence to mean God in the sense Jahovah is God not in the sense a judge, angel, demon, etc. is god.
Kerwinwhat make , the person who worship a false god,idol worshiper??
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2011,23:34) Since Jesus is not worthy of worship he an illegitimate god in the sence of being worshiped and thus departs from the typical model which is Jahovah.
Hi Kerwin,While I don't think the one of a kind God Jehovah could be called “typical”, I agree that if you're going to define “god” as “one worthy of worship”, then Jesus does not qualify.
But that is apparently not how Paul defined the word “theos”. Paul says there are many gods in heaven and on earth, and calls Satan the god of this age. Surely Paul didn't intend to worship any of these, right?
This is a very tricky subject, no?
- For us there is one God the Father.
- For others there are three that are God.
- And still others say that someone other than the Father is God.
- While a growing number of people choose to believe that there is no God.
Those who believe the first point have faith in the teachings of Jesus Christ and the apostles.
Any of the others deny their teachings.
The last point is the belief of fools.
Each point become progressively foolish as you go past the first one.Quote (t8 @ June 13 2011,19:29) - For us there is one God the Father.
- For others there are three that are God.
- And still others say that someone other than the Father is God.
- While a growing number of people choose to believe that there is no God.
Those who believe the first point have faith in the teachings of Jesus Christ and the apostles.
Any of the others deny their teachings.
The last point is the belief of fools.
Each point become progressively foolish as you go past the first one. Quote Since Jesus is not worthy of worship he an illegitimate god in the sence of being worshiped and thus departs from the typical model which is Jahovah. If a person worships Jesus then they make him a false God. note I am using the word “God” in that sentence to mean God in the sense Jahovah is God not in the sense a judge, angel, demon, etc. is god.
I think this is the reason we get into trouble and get confused about God. Since 99% of the time, when we see the word “god” it refers to the Almighty, Jehovah, we tend to think that all the things that go with being Jehovah relate to the word “god.”
ie: Jehovah is “the God” and Jehovah is worshiped, therefore, a “god” is someone who is worshiped.
But that's not what “god” means.
Based on all the scriptures, and everyone that is called “god” in the scriptures, the basic meaning of the word “god” is “mighty one, powerful one, strong one, etc.” It DOES NOT mean one who is worshiped. Of course, the All Mighty God is worthy of worship.
Looking at and understanding what “god” means, Jesus can not be made a “false god” whether you worship him or not. Jesus is “mighty” without a shadow of a doubt. He is second only to the ALL MIGHTY. Hence, he is a “mighty one,” a god.
So, just because someone worships him does not make him a false god, as if to say he is not a god. The false gods of the Bible were “false” because they in fact weren't gods at all. Eyes they had, but they could not see, etc. They had no power to do anything, no mightiness. They may have been thought of as gods (mighty ones) by those who worshiped them, but that did not make them mighty ones, hence, they were false gods.
I think our thinking is very black and white on this. Either you are the one and only true God, or you are a false god. (But we have others who are called “gods” without being either of those things.) Once we understand what “god” means, ALL these confusions go away.
Also, I don't think we should call Jesus an illegitimate god. That word in no way fits.
Can anyone show me scripture that the Father could eternally save us apart from the Son?
If He can save us only because of the Son, then the Father is mightier and more capable BECAUSE of His connection with the Son then apart from the Son.
Can the Father dwell within believers apart from His Holy Spirit?
If not, then the Holy Spirit causes the Father to be more capable than apart from His Holy Spirit.The presence of the Son and the Spirit bring more capabilities to the Father to be mightier than without their presence…and thus Almighty.
Can one really worship the Father as 'Almighty' as a being who is independent of His Son and Spirit, and still be worshipping the Father in truth?
Many here seem to believe that the Father wasn't always as capable to do the 'God' size tasks because they think the Son didn't always exist.
With the Son, God created…with the Son, God can offer eternal salvation.
When God says that He was alone during creation does God consider the Son an integral part of His being the Creator? So integral that they seem as one unity who act as one God to us although they are actually two distinct persons.
Just think about it.
Kathi
Quote Can anyone show me scripture that the Father could eternally save us apart from the Son?
do you mean ?that God can save us and give us eternal live ?without the sacrifice of Christ ?Quote Can the Father dwell within believers apart from His Holy Spirit?
I never see anyone that is full of God being,this believe does not exist in scriptures,the only way that the father dwells in us is if we do his will ,it is the will of God that make us from God or from the Devil if we do not do the will of God,since there is only two options,the holy spirit is not a being it is the will of God ,and what God wants that is what is,so men who are righteous are so declared because there obedience to Gods will,wen a prophet is send by God he does not come to do his own will but the will of God and so speaks the words of God,those words recieved trough the angel or in dreams,but they are both well understood by the reciever(prophet)
no one in his right mind would stand in Gods way only the fools do that ,Quote When God says that He was alone during creation does God consider the Son an integral part of His being the Creator? So integral that they seem as one unity who act as one God to us although they are actually two distinct persons. God is the only creator,the architect of all creation and as used the son what is his first creation to be the base of all the rest of his creation,
for this reason the son was the only being be able to intervene to save all of creation,but God as to accepted first and this end up for the son to give up his live to save all creation,Quote one God to us although they are actually two distinct persons. there is only one God because the son was not there at one point in time ,like before God created the first of his creation was is Christ the son.
SO ONE GOD ,ONE PERSON,CHRIST THE SON ONE PERSON SEPARATE AND CREATED WAY AFTER ??TIME??BUT IS HIS FIRST CREATION.
Just understand the truth of God
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ June 13 2011,14:58)
Can anyone show me scripture that the Father could eternally save us apart from the Son?
Sure:
Mark 10:27
Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”
Who do you think Jesus was referring to as “God” in this scripture, Kathi?Quote (Lightenup @ June 13 2011,14:58)
If He can save us only because of the Son, then the Father is mightier and more capable BECAUSE of His connection with the Son then apart from the Son.
That's a big “IF”, Kathi. If God could only return the remnant of Israel to Jerusalem because of Cyrus, then the Father is mightier and more capable BECAUSE of His connection with Cyrus………….. Does that make sense to you? Or are you able to understand that Cyrus is someone lessor than God who God used to fulfill HIS purpose? And if you CAN understand that in the case of Cyrus, why not in the case of Jesus?
Why would the vessel God chose to do something through make God more powerful? Kathi, I have a question for you:
Revelation 7:1
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.Kathi, if God can only hold these winds back because of these four angels, then the Father is more capable BECAUSE of His connection with these four angels than apart from these four angels…………….DO YOU AGREE?
Quote (Lightenup @ June 13 2011,14:58)
Many here seem to believe that the Father wasn't always as capable to do the 'God' size tasks because they think the Son didn't always exist.
That is the worst twisting of thoughts I've seen on HN since Jack left. I challenge you to name ONE person here who thinks the Son had a beginning and also thinks that because of that, God wasn't “as capable to do the God-sized tasks” before He beget His Son.ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE FOR GOD – WITH OR WITHOUT HIS SON. Kathi, you SERIOUSLY need to stop confusing the way God CHOSE to do things with some imagined “NEED” for Him to do them that way. The fact that God CHOSE to save us through Jesus does not mean He was INCAPABLE of doing it without Jesus, anymore than the fact that God CHOSE to have four angels hold back the winds means that He was INCAPABLE of doing that without those angels.
I'll await your honest answer to my bolded question.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 13 2011,06:12) Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2011,23:34) Since Jesus is not worthy of worship he an illegitimate god in the sence of being worshiped and thus departs from the typical model which is Jahovah.
Hi Kerwin,While I don't think the one of a kind God Jehovah could be called “typical”, I agree that if you're going to define “god” as “one worthy of worship”, then Jesus does not qualify.
But that is apparently not how Paul defined the word “theos”. Paul says there are many gods in heaven and on earth, and calls Satan the god of this age. Surely Paul didn't intend to worship any of these, right?
This is a very tricky subject, no?
I believe Paul meand different things when using the word “theos” and he expected the context in which it was used to make clear what he meant. This is normal when using words.Paul was directing his letters to those who already knew what he meant while we are not always in the know do to those who have snuck into the church and made the truth of Scripture unclear. We must depend on God to lead us through the truth as he is a living God that reveals the truth to those who seek him.
Quote 2 Peter 2:1(New International Version (NIV)) False Teachers and Their Destruction
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.Quote (david @ June 13 2011,09:58) Quote Since Jesus is not worthy of worship he an illegitimate god in the sence of being worshiped and thus departs from the typical model which is Jahovah. If a person worships Jesus then they make him a false God. note I am using the word “God” in that sentence to mean God in the sense Jahovah is God not in the sense a judge, angel, demon, etc. is god.
I think this is the reason we get into trouble and get confused about God. Since 99% of the time, when we see the word “god” it refers to the Almighty, Jehovah, we tend to think that all the things that go with being Jehovah relate to the word “god.”
ie: Jehovah is “the God” and Jehovah is worshiped, therefore, a “god” is someone who is worshiped.
But that's not what “god” means.
Based on all the scriptures, and everyone that is called “god” in the scriptures, the basic meaning of the word “god” is “mighty one, powerful one, strong one, etc.” It DOES NOT mean one who is worshiped. Of course, the All Mighty God is worthy of worship.
Looking at and understanding what “god” means, Jesus can not be made a “false god” whether you worship him or not. Jesus is “mighty” without a shadow of a doubt. He is second only to the ALL MIGHTY. Hence, he is a “mighty one,” a god.
So, just because someone worships him does not make him a false god, as if to say he is not a god. The false gods of the Bible were “false” because they in fact weren't gods at all. Eyes they had, but they could not see, etc. They had no power to do anything, no mightiness. They may have been thought of as gods (mighty ones) by those who worshiped them, but that did not make them mighty ones, hence, they were false gods.
I think our thinking is very black and white on this. Either you are the one and only true God, or you are a false god. (But we have others who are called “gods” without being either of those things.) Once we understand what “god” means, ALL these confusions go away.
Also, I don't think we should call Jesus an illegitimate god. That word in no way fits.
Words in most, if not all languages have more that one definition and so it is an error to assume they have but one.My post atemps to point out that is the case.
There is debate about what the word “elohim” means in Hebrew. The word “Gibbowr” means “mighty” and “mighty man” in Hebrew. I suppose it could be a synomyn of “elohim” in some cases.
Jesus does not set himself equal to God and so he does not make himself a illegitimate God. In other words he himself acknowledges he does not have a legitimate right to claim to be God as Jahovah is God.
Edited to finish answer to post by adding last paragraph.
Quote (terraricca @ June 12 2011,08:01) Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2011,23:34) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2011,10:00) And so Kerwin, you would be calling God's only begotten Son, our Lord, King and Savior, an “illegitimate mighty one”. Don't you agree that Jesus IS a “mighty one” who is not “THE ALMIGHTY ONE”? Jesus IS the god who was with THE God in the beginning. He IS the only begotten god. Do you think Jesus is a “false god”?
Paul says there are many gods and lords, both in heaven and on earth. I believe him. And like him, I know that Jehovah is the only “true” God and therefore the only One deserving of worship from us, because He is God Most High, God Almighty, and the God of gods.
Jesus is not worthy of worship though he is worthy of homage. Since Jesus is not worthy of worship he an illegitimate god in the sence of being worshiped and thus departs from the typical model which is Jahovah.If a person worships Jesus then they make him a false God. note I am using the word “God” in that sentence to mean God in the sense Jahovah is God not in the sense a judge, angel, demon, etc. is god.
Kerwinwhat make , the person who worship a false god,idol worshiper??
Pierre
They would be an idol worshipper, at least in the mental sense.Pierre,
you said:Quote SO ONE GOD ,ONE PERSON,CHRIST THE SON ONE PERSON SEPARATE AND CREATED WAY AFTER ??TIME??BUT IS HIS FIRST CREATION. We disagree here and so we come to different conclusions. I think that the Son always existed, first within the Father and then begotten from within before creation.
Mike,
So many questions…
you said:
Quote Mark 10:27
Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”
Who do you think Jesus was referring to as “God” in this scripture, Kathi?God would be the Father who was inseparable from His Son and their Spirit.
Quote Why would the vessel God chose to do something through make God more powerful? The Son is far more than a vessel. He is the wisdom and power of God, the image of God, and the word of God…our righteousness, and our salvation. He cannot be compared to a man that God used to do a man thing. The Father used the Son to do God things…creation and eternal salvation for just two examples.
Quote Kathi, I have a question for you:
Revelation 7:1
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.Kathi, if God can only hold these winds back because of these four angels, then the Father is more capable BECAUSE of His connection with these four angels than apart from these four angels…………….DO YOU AGREE?
Obviously, yes. but we know that God can hold the wind in His fist and that Jesus controlled the wind by His word. Therefore, they do not need the angels.
Quote I challenge you to name ONE person here who thinks the Son had a beginning and also thinks that because of that, God wasn't “as capable to do the God-sized tasks” before He beget His Son. Mike, all who believe that the Son was necessary for our salvation would imply this if they thought the Son did not exist at first, whether they actually realize this or not.
Quote ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE FOR GOD – WITH OR WITHOUT HIS SON. Kathi, you SERIOUSLY need to stop confusing the way God CHOSE to do things with some imagined “NEED” for Him to do them that way. The fact that God CHOSE to save us through Jesus does not mean He was INCAPABLE of doing it without Jesus, anymore than the fact that God CHOSE to have four angels hold back the winds means that He was INCAPABLE of doing that without those angels. And this is where we disagree. I believe the Father and the Son are interdependent with each other and always had each other. I do not believe that the Father was independent of the Son.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ June 15 2011,23:40) Pierre,
you said:Quote SO ONE GOD ,ONE PERSON,CHRIST THE SON ONE PERSON SEPARATE AND CREATED WAY AFTER ??TIME??BUT IS HIS FIRST CREATION. We disagree here and so we come to different conclusions. I think that the Son always existed, first within the Father and then begotten from within before creation.
KathiCol 1:15 He(Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
what is it you do not understand ? ,is Paul lying ?
Pierre
Kathi
Quote And this is where we disagree. I believe the Father and the Son are interdependent with each other and always had each other. I do not believe that the Father was independent of the Son. Kathi
this comment is changing 99% of the bible ,so let me know when you are finish the written book
Pierre
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