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Quote (t8 @ June 27 2010,19:55) Good question. I would like to add this.
If I try not to sin and I have faith in God, but sin from time to time, am I a sinner?
Some people like Ray Comfort would say yes.Here is another couple of questions.
If I go fishing once every few years, am I a fisherman?
If I run sometimes, am I a runner?
Your point is well taken.A scripture which you may find most useful along these lines is Romans 5:19.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.People were made sinners by Adam's error.
People were made righteous by Jesus Christ's obedience.
We who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ are righteous.
Our obedience to the word overcomes Adam's disobedience to it.
How? By our works? No, of course not. It was by JC's obedience that we are made righteous. But we claim what is ours, what God has already done for us through Christ. All we have to do is receive it.
This is not automatic armor against sinning, no more than having a bible is a guarantee that we will read it, let alone, do it. But God has now given us the potential to do right, all the time, in every situation. And He has given us the instruction manual on how to use it most beneficially and effectually. We now have it in us to do right. The OT believers did what they could with what they had to work with. We now have so much more than they ever had because of the accomplished works of JC.
You are righteous now.
HaHa…t8,
That is so funny…That is false logic.
Noone needs to go fishing.
Noone needs to go running.Sinning is not like going fishing or running otherwise many would be sinless and Jesus' sacrificen would have been for nothing.
Going 'fishing' takes effort and preparation.
Going running, tskes effort and preparation.
Sinning takes no effort and requires no preparation.Sinning is innate.
Going fishing is not, nor is going running.But don't believe I don't understand what you are suggesting. You just did it badly.
If one speaks the truth once or twice, is that person righteous?
That is another silly questions.The question is: 'If one have the propensity to sin, is that one, then, a sinner?'
And that answer is, indefatically, Yes.
Jesus had the potential, but not the propensity, therefore he was not a sinner.Quote (t8 @ June 27 2010,19:55) Good question. I would like to add this.
If I try not to sin and I have faith in God, but sin from time to time, am I a sinner?
Some people like Ray Comfort would say yes.Here is another couple of questions.
If I go fishing once every few years, am I a fisherman?
If I run sometimes, am I a runner?
Hi T8 and All,A man doesn’t get to decide whether or not he is a a sinner, any more than a
speaker can declare his own words to be truthful. Either they are or they aren't.The bible teaches that all sinners declare themselves innocent, but then they
are found to be sinners by others. The record of a person’s actions speaks volumes
of their “Righteousness” or lack thereof (I John 3:10). It’s how others view you over time
that matters, not how a person declares themselves without “sin” or “fault” in their thinking.What does perfection in Christ mean as it relates to Biblical Truth?
There is only one way to be perfect and that’s to stop sinning (Matt. 5:44)!
This can only be done with the Holy Spirit tabernacleing on the inside (Heb. 8:10).A progression away from the old sinful nature (Col.3:4-10):
1John has a progression away from sin. Starting at 1John 1:8:
“If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves”…
Sinners practice sin!Progressing to 1John 3:9: “Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; For his seed
remainith in him: and he cannot sin (AS A USUAL PRACTICE), because he is borne of God.”
Practice of sin diminishes!Finishing in 1John 5:18: “We know that whosoever is borne of God SINNETH NOT;
But he that is begotten of God keepeth (GUARDS) himself,
and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not.
All sinning STOPS; fulfilling Matt. 5:44! (Eph.4:13)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.comEd J: 1) Please tell me what someone has to do to sin? How does one commit sin?
2) How do you practice sin?
3) Is a person born of God by faith? Is salvation by faith in Jesus? How can one born of God by faith, sin by doing a work good or bad? If one that is born of God sinneth not?
4) If faith connects you to God then only un-belief can disconnect you from God. Would that be true?5) Can you aquire salvation by good works? If not aquired by good works, then how? By believing, right? So the only way to lose ones salvation would be through unbelief. Works have no part in our union with God!!!
If believing you recieve then not believing would be the only way to lose or disconnect.
Sin is not a good work or a bad work. Sin is a wrong belief. Sin is believing that something one has done has separated him from God!
Sin is incorrect believing. Bless all, TK
Quote (Tim Kraft @ July 04 2010,05:04) Ed J: 1) Please tell me what someone has to do to sin? How does one commit sin? 2) How do you practice sin?
3) Is a person born of God by faith? Is salvation by faith in Jesus? How can one born of God by faith, sin by doing a work good or bad? If one that is born of God sinneth not?
4) If faith connects you to God then only un-belief can disconnect you from God. Would that be true?5) Can you aquire salvation by good works? If not aquired by good works, then how? By believing, right? So the only way to lose ones salvation would be through unbelief. Works have no part in our union with God!!!
If believing you recieve then not believing would be the only way to lose or disconnect.
Sin is not a good work or a bad work. Sin is a wrong belief. Sin is believing that something one has done has separated him from God!
Sin is incorrect believing. Bless all, TK
Faith without works is dead.It's a catch 22.
or paradox.
——-
I agree that sin is an unbelief…but it's still a catch 22
For example:
The Law says stealing is a sin.
So if you steal, whether your a sinner or christian.
It's still a sin.
——
But the catch 22 of the situation would ask the question:
why would a christian steal?——
More often than not, it's due to weakness in the spirit and poor judgement.
this happens because when you give yourself to God and become christian, your journey starts and ends with walking by faith.
This in itself is a learning experience, in which you must GROW in God.
During that period of growth (in which it never ends until death) you will sin.
And when you do, it's your duty to repent of your sins and try your best not to do it again.
——
Its not the works that get you into heaven, it's the faith…but how can you know you have faith, if you don't have works to prove them?
For example, if your faith in God tells you to be generous, how can you be generous if you don't give?
It's a catch 22.
But the catch 22 of Faith + Works = Walk
Your walk with God not only solidfies your salvation by faith, but determines your rewards by works.
So all in all, we need to WALK with God.
Your walk in trying to abstain for sins, and repenting when you do…shows your CONCERN for God and his will.
—–
Sinners sin without regard, live and die in them.
Saints by way of Christ, sin by mistake, repent…and work to be better.
—–
So even though I agree with your logic…I don't agree with your conclusive application.
Quote (Tim Kraft @ July 04 2010,05:04) Ed J: 1) Please tell me what someone has to do to sin? How does one commit sin? 2) How do you practice sin?
3) Is a person born of God by faith? Is salvation by faith in Jesus? How can one born of God by faith, sin by doing a work good or bad? If one that is born of God sinneth not?
4) If faith connects you to God then only un-belief can disconnect you from God. Would that be true?5) Can you aquire salvation by good works? If not aquired by good works, then how? By believing, right? So the only way to lose ones salvation would be through unbelief. Works have no part in our union with God!!!
6) If believing you recieve then not believing would be the only way to lose or disconnect.
7) Sin is not a good work or a bad work. Sin is a wrong belief. Sin is believing that something one has done has separated him from God!
Sin is incorrect believing. Bless all, TK
Hi TK,Please only ask one question per Post, so the readers of the thread can follow what is being said; OK?
1) 1John 3:4
2) Do you mean: How does anyone practice sin? (Psalm 53:1-6)
3) You have too many unrelated Points numbered #3?
4) FALSE; sin can disconnect 'you' from God. (Heb.10:26)
5) Once again you have too many unrelated Points numbered #5?
6) Speculation with No Scriptural support.
7) False; like Nick Hassan says: Dust off your Bible and read what's inside!God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (kerwin @ July 03 2010,19:49) Choosenone, What do you believe Jesus meant when he told the Eleven to teach the believers of all nations everything he had commanded them, Matthew 28:19-20?
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Hi kerwin.
The apostles never went out to all nations. On the contrary, Peter was opposed when he went to the proselyte Cornelius (Ac.11:3). They never baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit. They used the titles of Christ intelligently when they baptized. They used “Jesus Christ” in baptizing Israelites, “Lord Jesus” for Samaritans (Ac.8:16). They never used “Christ Jesus,” the title of His present heavenly glory. They never used the formula here given because they knew that it was reserved for the future kingdom proclamation. They never discipled the nations, as such. The Lord was not with them till the conclusion of that eon, but left them soon after, when He ascended. This commission cannot be carried out until His return in power and glory to bless all nations through His people Israel.(Copied from Concordant Publishing concern)
God Bless, Jerry.
Quote (chosenone @ July 04 2010,12:21) Quote (kerwin @ July 03 2010,19:49) Choosenone, What do you believe Jesus meant when he told the Eleven to teach the believers of all nations everything he had commanded them, Matthew 28:19-20?
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Hi kerwin.
The apostles never went out to all nations. On the contrary, Peter was opposed when he went to the proselyte Cornelius (Ac.11:3). They never baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit. They used the titles of Christ intelligently when they baptized. They used “Jesus Christ” in baptizing Israelites, “Lord Jesus” for Samaritans (Ac.8:16). They never used “Christ Jesus,” the title of His present heavenly glory. They never used the formula here given because they knew that it was reserved for the future kingdom proclamation. They never discipled the nations, as such. The Lord was not with them till the conclusion of that eon, but left them soon after, when He ascended. This commission cannot be carried out until His return in power and glory to bless all nations through His people Israel.(Copied from Concordant Publishing concern)
God Bless, Jerry.
Hi Chosenone,The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.
Jesus returned at “Pentecost”. See here and here. (1John 4:3)God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ July 04 2010,00:18) Hi TK, Do you keep the 10 commandments, meaning is there any you are currently breaking?
Ed J: Luke 16:16–“the Law and the prophets were until John, since then the Kingdom of God is preached”!Jesus said he did not come to destroy (lit:stay in, or lodge in, or make his abode in) the Law. He fulfilled it, completed it. If you are still under any part of the law you must follow every part of the law. Including sacrifices!! IMO, TK
RM,
Are you being paid to use the word 'Paradox'?
Or is your whole world a 'Paradox'?
Faith is greater than works.
But works without faith is subject to the Judgement of Jesus. It is the reason behind the lack of faith that matters, for instance: Was that person subjected to the truth of the word of God.
If they were mislead and therefore did not believe because of that … But they did good works… Then , in the second rising they will be given the chance to be subjected to the truth. If they decide from that, tnat they still donlt believe then that will be that.Where is the 'Paradox'?
RokkaMan, from now I give you a new name, 'Luke' (as in 'Lukewarm')
Quote (Tim Kraft @ July 04 2010,20:59) Quote (Ed J @ July 04 2010,00:18) Hi TK, Do you keep the 10 commandments, meaning is there any you are currently breaking?
Ed J: Luke 16:16–“the Law and the prophets were until John, since then the Kingdom of God is preached”!Jesus said he did not come to destroy (lit:stay in, or lodge in, or make his abode in) the Law. He fulfilled it, completed it. If you are still under any part of the law you must follow every part of the law. Including sacrifices!! IMO, TK
Hi TK,First your response is diversionary, amounting to NO answer at all.
Secondly there are “commandments”, “statutes”, and “judgments”.
You clearly speak out of ignorance, not knowing what The Bible actually teaches!
ONLY the statutes were done away with, not the 10 commandments nor the judgments!
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Click Here)Deut.6:1-2 Now these are the “commandments”, the “statutes”, and the “judgments”, which the LORD (YHVH)
your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it: That thou
mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee,
thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.In the mount of transfiguration we find three people who illustrate these “Three”. (Matt.17:1-6)
Elijah: The Judgments; rewards and punishments.
Moses The Commandments; “10” in Old Testament, “2” in New Testament.
Jesus: The Statues; Jesus fulfilled the statues (contained as ordinances), and done away with them.Eph.2:15: Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained
in ordinances (called statutes); for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
PS> The commandments show “fractal” consistency with the Kingdom
splitting into 10 Northern tribes and two Southern tribes (Judah & Benjamin).Gene.
It is true that you cannot come to Jesus except God draws you and the evidence that God draws you is a “contrite heart and a broken spirit”. It is also true that one that lives by the spirit they receive through faith when immersed as Jesus taught teaches does have a “contrite heart and a broken spirit”.
Since one must repent before they are in immersed after coming to believe it follows that they are have a “contrite heart and a broken” spirit before they have the spirit to live by and thus that appears as a sign God has drawn one to Jesus the Anointed. I would therefore conclude that having “a contrite heart and a broken spirit” do not come from the spirit but rather come from the soul as the soul is all that is left to originate them as they do not come from the flesh.
I am unsure of the function of the “heart” and whether it is a synonym for “spirit” and/or “soul” in some cases
Sincerely,
Kerwin Brown
Choosenone,
Thank you for giving your interpretation of Matthew 28:19-20. I disagree with it but this thread is not the appropriate place to address that disagreement. Perhaps God will lead us to discuss it at a later date in a more appropriate forum.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Quote (kerwin @ July 04 2010,22:47) Gene. It is true that you cannot come to Jesus except God draws you and the evidence that God draws you is a “contrite heart and a broken spirit”. It is also true that one that lives by the spirit they receive through faith when immersed as Jesus taught teaches does have a “contrite heart and a broken spirit”.
Since one must repent before they are in immersed after coming to believe it follows that they are have a “contrite heart and a broken” spirit before they have the spirit to live by and thus that appears as a sign God has drawn one to Jesus the Anointed. I would therefore conclude that having “a contrite heart and a broken spirit” do not come from the spirit but rather come from the soul as the soul is all that is left to originate them as they do not come from the flesh.
I am unsure of the function of the “heart” and whether it is a synonym for “spirit” and/or “soul” in some cases
Sincerely,
Kerwin Brown
Hi Kerwin,Dr. Gene Scott of Stanford University was going to do his Doctorate paper on
the difference between “Spirit” and “Soul”, but after carefully studying of (Shaool)
The Apostle Paul's use of both words he found he could not as Paul mixed their usages.
Either the soul is part of the spirit or the spirit is part of the soul or they are one and the same!God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Tim Kraft @ July 04 2010,05:04) Ed J: 1) Please tell me what someone has to do to sin? How does one commit sin? 2) How do you practice sin?
3) Is a person born of God by faith? Is salvation by faith in Jesus? How can one born of God by faith, sin by doing a work good or bad? If one that is born of God sinneth not?
4) If faith connects you to God then only un-belief can disconnect you from God. Would that be true?5) Can you aquire salvation by good works? If not aquired by good works, then how? By believing, right? So the only way to lose ones salvation would be through unbelief. Works have no part in our union with God!!!
If believing you recieve then not believing would be the only way to lose or disconnect.
Sin is not a good work or a bad work. Sin is a wrong belief. Sin is believing that something one has done has separated him from God!
Sin is incorrect believing. Bless all, TK
Tim……….Perhaps this the difference between (BORN) and (BEGOTTEN) . If a person is begotten He may have God's Spirit (seed) in Him , but not yet Born. There is a scripture that says for we hope for that righteousness to come. Paul seem to say that even though we have God's Spirit (IN) we also have sin in our bodies that war against the Spirit of GOD in us. Maybe we will not completely shed ourselves from sin until we are completely born again from above. This is by no means saying we have a license to sin though , how could we (practice) sinning with a Godly nature. So this wretched condition exists in all who are (Begotten) but not yet born. We are however accounted as Son of GOD even Now if we have His (Spirit) seed in us. IMOpeace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 04 2010,23:46) Tim……….Perhaps this the difference between (BORN) and (BEGOTTEN) . If a person is begotten He may have God's Spirit (seed) in Him , but not yet Born. There is a scripture that says for we hope for that righteousness to come. Paul seem to say that even though we have God's Spirit (IN) we also have sin in our bodies that war against the Spirit of GOD in us. Maybe we will not completely shed ourselves from sin until we are completely born again from above. This is by no means saying we have a license to sin though , how could we (practice) sinning with a Godly nature. So this wretched condition exists in all who are (Begotten) but not yet born. We are however accounted as Son of GOD even Now if we have His (Spirit) seed in us. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Hi Gene,I'm not so sure you've got the wording right or even if what you said is understood by others?
But I know for a surety that you understand it Brother!God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ July 04 2010,23:01) Quote (kerwin @ July 04 2010,22:47) Gene. It is true that you cannot come to Jesus except God draws you and the evidence that God draws you is a “contrite heart and a broken spirit”. It is also true that one that lives by the spirit they receive through faith when immersed as Jesus taught teaches does have a “contrite heart and a broken spirit”.
Since one must repent before they are in immersed after coming to believe it follows that they are have a “contrite heart and a broken” spirit before they have the spirit to live by and thus that appears as a sign God has drawn one to Jesus the Anointed. I would therefore conclude that having “a contrite heart and a broken spirit” do not come from the spirit but rather come from the soul as the soul is all that is left to originate them as they do not come from the flesh.
I am unsure of the function of the “heart” and whether it is a synonym for “spirit” and/or “soul” in some cases
Sincerely,
Kerwin Brown
Hi Kerwin,Dr. Gene Scott of Stanford University was going to do his Doctorate paper on
the difference between “Spirit” and “Soul”, but after carefully studying of (Shaool)
The Apostle Paul's use of both words he found he could not as Paul mixed their usages.
Either the soul is part of the spirit or the spirit is part of the soul or they are one and the same!God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
ED J………..I concur with Dr. Gene Scott, the soul and Spirit can be mixed up, but the fact is the soul (which is a person) can not exist without a body while spirit can. Jesus could not exist without his body as a soul, so God raised His body after three days and He again became a living Soul. Scripture say that God would not leave his Soul in the Grave to see corruption. Jesus also said the Soul can die (IN) the Grave> It is absolutely necessary we be given new (BODIES) through a Change or a new resurected one in order for us to continue to live. Only YHVH can live outside a body of his own no one else can. He can also cohabit with us in our bodies as in the case of Jesus. IMOpeace and love…………………..gene
Ed, J,
It is quite possible that Paul did mix the usage of soul and spirit but it does not follow from that that the soul and spirit share certain functions in part or whole. It does not follow as language will give different definitions to the same word and therefore two different words can be synonyms in certain usages while being completely different in other usages. This is one reason why a a particular Greek word does not always translate to the same English word. Like in English the context a word is used in determines what its correct definition is.
I believe I simplified the process by applying one particular definition to soul and another to spirit. Using those definitions every time you encounter the associated word in scripture will not work but the simplifying does aid in understanding the ideas expressed in scripture but you have to know which definition is appropriate in a given situation. The word “heart” and “mind” are also in the mix. In Greek it may even get worse with kidney and guts are also used.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 04 2010,23:46) Quote (Tim Kraft @ July 04 2010,05:04) Ed J: 1) Please tell me what someone has to do to sin? How does one commit sin? 2) How do you practice sin?
3) Is a person born of God by faith? Is salvation by faith in Jesus? How can one born of God by faith, sin by doing a work good or bad? If one that is born of God sinneth not?
4) If faith connects you to God then only un-belief can disconnect you from God. Would that be true?5) Can you aquire salvation by good works? If not aquired by good works, then how? By believing, right? So the only way to lose ones salvation would be through unbelief. Works have no part in our union with God!!!
If believing you recieve then not believing would be the only way to lose or disconnect.
Sin is not a good work or a bad work. Sin is a wrong belief. Sin is believing that something one has done has separated him from God!
Sin is incorrect believing. Bless all, TK
Tim……….Perhaps this the difference between (BORN) and (BEGOTTEN) . If a person is begotten He may have God's Spirit (seed) in Him , but not yet Born. There is a scripture that says for we hope for that righteousness to come. Paul seem to say that even though we have God's Spirit (IN) we also have sin in our bodies that war against the Spirit of GOD in us. Maybe we will not completely shed ourselves from sin until we are completely born again from above. This is by no means saying we have a license to sin though , how could we (practice) sinning with a Godly nature. So this wretched condition exists in all who are (Begotten) but not yet born. We are however accounted as Son of GOD even Now if we have His (Spirit) seed in us. IMOpeace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Gene: Thank you for your patience. I believe that understanding what sin is or does is the most important thing we can learn from the Bible as it is sin that separates us from God. It is a worthy study.Originally in Gen.4:7 when the lord said to the boys about their offerings, “if thou doest well shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
The word sin is only used two times in Gen. once again at the 18th Chapter. The definition of the word sin is, an error or the punishment for an error. It seems to me that sin is the cost of or punishment for an error.
I took that to heart and began to use that definition each time I saw the word sin and realized that it was being used as as error against God or that separates one from God.
Since our union with God is in our minds/hearts by faith then the punishment for sin or the result of a sin or fruit of sin is severence or separation from God. So sin is not an act. Sin is not something one does. Sin is an error of thinking that one is separated from God for some reason. Thinking that one has done something wrong and God is angry with his is the error of thinking that so easily besets us. Sin is what one gets for thinking wrong. Sin is what happens to us if we think we have done a wrong work. Sin is the fruit produced from incorrect thinking about separation from God.
IMO, this is what I have come up with. I appreciate all the imput by well learned individuals on this site. I don't like it when they personally get mad a me. They know who they are. This subject is extremely important to the growth and power of each individual searching for God. God does not inhabit a defiled temple. Sin defiles the temple. Jesus cleansed us is we believe. If we don't believe he cleansed us we are dead in our trespasses and sin. God Bless, TK
Tim………….I do believe sin is certainly the result of wrong things and Lusts driving minds of People as well as Pride. You do have a very strong and valid Point brother. I think sometimes people are defeated in their minds , but GOD has forgiven us our Sin and is quite capable of cleansing us from all Sin and Our Faith (IS) the Victory as John said. ” And this is our victory , Our Faith”. We need to truly trust in His power to clean us and guide us to living waters. He has already forgiven us through Through Christ Jesus. We need to all just believe that and Let the spirit have its perfect Work. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
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