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Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,15:41) Hi Jack, You know what I think? I think you've stalled and avoided moving on to the “right hand” issue until you could come up with an “excuse” to bail out for good.
That's okay, I'll just bring it up in a new topic. So what have we both learned from our extremely long debate on “begotten” and “all creation”?I hold that “monogenes” means “only begotten” or “caused to exist”. You hold that “begotten” is just a title or position that Jesus was given after he was raised from the dead. Strong's agrees with me. So does Eusebius. So does the KJV, the NIV, the NWT and many other translations. Even the people you quoted against me don't agree with you that “the Son with power” means that's when Jesus became the “only begotten Son of God”.
You have asserted that “all creation” means only mankind, yet you have failed to prove that assertion. The words “pasa ktisis” definitely mean “all creation”.
In this whole time consuming debate, you've offered only conjecture – both yours and trinitarians who are recently trying to change the meaning of long accepted definitions. You have tried to insert your beliefs into Scripture and make the Scripture say what you think it should. But that has failed simply because it is NOT what the Scripture says.
We had like 25 topics we were going to discuss and couldn't even move to my first choice because you would not “agree to disagree” on your first choice. I had my doubts when I first challenged you in an attempt to eliminate your running away. But alas, you have escaped indeed. So sad.
Keep running Jack. Just like you did from Nick's question about Legion and so many others like it.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,You already lost the right hand issue when you said that Christ is not reigning now but “waiting.”
According to Paul:“He must REIGN until He has put all enemies under His feet”.
According to Mike:“He must WAIT until He has put all enemies have been put under His feet”.
Read this thread from the beginning and you will see that we had discussed the right hand issue enough here. We went over several points regarding the right hand on other threads too. And I was upfront with you saying that if you chose to discuss it on other threads that we would not discuss it here to avoid repitition. So if we continue we will just be repeating ourselves like we have been doing. The record shows that we have discussed the right hand issue. I repeat: The record shows that we have discussed this point!
So believe what you want Mike.
You have adopted full blown heresy and I don't care what a full blown heretic thinks.
You say that Christ is “waiting” instead of “reigning” and that He is a god in the “same sense” as satan. These statements reflect that you lied when you said that you are here to learn.
You may claim the victory. I will not be discoursing with you any more. I cannot stomach you!
Did you notice that you received no “high fives” from your comrades when you said that Jesus is a god in the “same sense” as satan?
Mike:
Quote Keep running Jack. Just like you did from Nick's question about Legion and so many others like it.
Nick's question about Legion was not valid. I could have invoked the fact that Legion said, “My name is Legion for we we are many”. The demons used the singular “my” and then the plural “we”. I could have said, “See Nick, the devils were a plural unity and this illustrates that God is a plural unity”.But I didn't argue that because it was not valid. Legion doesn't have squat to do with the Messenger of Jehovah. Nick would not answer my point that Gabriel did not speak to Mary like the Messenger of Jehovah spoke to Hagar. Gabriel said to Mary, “The Most High will….” But the Messenger who spoke to Hagar said, “I will multiply your seed.”
Again Mike, you are a full blown heretic and I don't give a hoot what you think. From this point on consider yourself ignored.
Titus 3:10:
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject.
You were admonished more than once about saying that Christ is a god in the “same sense” as satan. It is time to ignore you.
You make me want to puke!
Jack
Hi Jack,
Run, run, run away. It's what you do second best. #1 is insult and belittle people who disagree with your doctrines.
Instead of sitting on your high horse accusing me of heresy, why don't you prove my statement wrong? All the necessary info is in the two posts I made. Am I mistaken? Show me how.
This is typical trinitarian behavior. They have had this rep from the start of there flawed doctrine. Look at my info on Eusebius. He didn't believe that Jesus was God Almighty, but was begotten by Him. But he was persuaded to cave in by the threat of excommunication. Isn't that what you are doing? Threatening to excommunicate me? Unfortunately for you, unlike Eusebius, I love praise from God more than praise from men.
You say I make you puke? Just like the JWs and JA make you puke, huh? Seems to me when you can't refute Scripture with your conjecture, your adversary makes you want to puke. How mature of you. But it's the same reaction the trinitarians take against the JWs for the way they translate John 1:1. You speak some Greek. You know it should be “a god”, not “God”. At the very least, you know it COULD be. But instead of dealing with that, it's far easier to join the “slam the Witnesses” club and go around calling them a cult. May Jehovah rebuke you Jack.
Finally, we have NEVER discussed my original questions about the right hand, although I've asked them at least 10 times.
1. When in the history of the world did being at someone's right hand make that one exactly equal to the one who's right hand he was at?
2. When in the history of the world did being at someone's right hand mean that one was the same exact being as the one who's right hand he was at?
Btw, it is Scripture that tells us that Jesus now sits at God's right hand, WAITING for his enemies to BE MADE a footstool for his feet. Instead of heresy accusations, maybe you could actually answer to what the Bible teaches for once?
Does Jesus now rule the world as it's King? Or will that happen when he opens the scroll, comes on the clouds, and begins his 1000 year reign? Has it already begun, like the JWs believe? IMO, we would have seen many changes for the better in this world by now if Jesus was reigning as King. Does he already reign in heaven? This I don't know. But I'm pretty sure that Satan is still “the god of this world”. Has Satan already been cast out of heaven? Don't know for sure.
Oh yeah, the Legion question was to prove that although the man was doing the physical talking, the voice was that of someone other than the man. So when someone says “Jehovah said” this or that, it doesn't necessarily mean that Jehovah was there in person.
Happy trails to you. I will continue to pray that you receive an understanding of Jesus that is more aligned with Scripture.
peace and love,
mikeHi Roo,
I was perusing my debate with WJ and came across this:
Keith,
Forgive me for posting here. I want to direct you to my reply today to Mike's false charge against me. He copied and pasted my statement out of context. In reply I copied and pasted ALL that I said in relation to that statement.
See my reply to Mike today in my debate with him.
The next time Mike misrepresents me like this I will ask the tech adm to close our debate.
I had to laugh.
It seems that I was right a couple of posts ago. You don't really think I'm a heretic. You ARE just scared of where our debate is going. You have failed to answer to any valid points in our debate for weeks before I said that Jesus is a god in the same sense that Satan is a god. This that I just posted above was the warning sign that you were about to cower and bail. From this post on, you've been waiting for me to say anything that might give you an out. I don't want that, though. I want to see you try to explain how being at someone's right hand means they are the same being as that person and equal to them. Not to mention how Stephen could see Jesus but only the glory of Jehovah, and many other points. Points like how monogenes really did still mean only begotten in NT times according to Eusebius.
Would it help if I said that Jesus is a god in the same sense that Gabriel and Michael are gods? (Even though as fellow angels with Satan, it would mean the same thing as I said before.) Would that make it all better for you?
Think about it Roo, am I still a heretic if I rephrase it to say Gabriel instead of Satan?
Nah…I know it will make no difference to you because you have already decided that you don't like being closed in a box with only me and Scripture. Your “hit and run” tactics don't work if you can't employ the “run” part, do they?
So now what are your plans? Going topic to topic telling others how they need to rebuke and educate me because I'm too much like the Devil for you to converse with me? You've already started with David. You are a coward, Roo. A whiny little child-like coward. How pathetic.
mike
Hi Jack,
Since we are still debating the same thing we started months ago, I thought I'd see if you're ready to do it in the cage again.
From Ignatius:
But our Physician is the Only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin.
What does “unbegotten” mean?
From Eusebius:
We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father,
Considering the “before all the ages”, did Eusebius think that “prototokos pasa ktisis” in Col 1:15 meant “preeminent over mankind”?
You keep running away from these questions in your public thread. Care to answer in the cage?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (SimplyForgiven @ June 17 2010,08:30) Humorous debate.
Go ahead and start moderating, Dennison. There are two questions posed for Jack. I'll await his DIRECT answers. Maybe you can give him a nudge to answer directly and to the point and not go off in a hundred different directions.Let's go!
mike
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