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Quote (francis @ Jan. 28 2011,10:43) Since no one can absolutely and irrefutably prove anything outside of math, then it is clear that I am not going to attempt to absolutely and irrefutably prove that the Trinitarian position is correct. What I'm going to do is attempt to prove that my position is a far stronger and a far more logical and rational position than your position, when all the evidence that is avaialbe is taken into fair and impartial consideration. 
Francis: Nothing can be PROVEN, but I'm going to PROVE my position is stronger!
Let's see……………we could use the word “logical”. Or maybe the word prase I used in the subtitle of the thread: “make sense”.
Oh! How about “abundantly clear”. Yeah, I like that one. Your mission is to make it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR to any average Joe that Jesus is being called “God Almighty” in Heb 1:8. How's that work for you?
As far as “elohim”, here's what the TWOT says:
'lh is the assumed root of 'el, 'eloah, and 'elohim, which mean “god” or “God.”
That is the first line, and seems to be par for the course with all scholars. But look a little deeper:
Some hold that the two are distinct, deriving 'el from the root 'wl (strong). Others see 'elohim derived from the root 'lh, together with 'eloah, that root meaning “fear.”
Most frequently mentioned suggestions for an original meaning are “power” or “fear” but these are widely challenged and much disputed.
So YOU tell ME, Francis. What is the original MEANING of the word “el” or “elohim”? I see “fear” and “power” and “strong”. What do YOU see?
Does the word MEAN “angel”, like the scholars say, or does the word MEAN “mighty one” – which could REFER TO either an angel or to God?
Do you see my point? Can you at least ACKNOWLEDGE that I HAVE a point? Francis, no one today would see an angel and say, “I saw God“. No one today would say, “God raised up new Gods to oversee His people.” No one today would say, “I went to court and the God handed down the verdict.”
Listen, this is the last I will say on the subject. I have agreed to accept “God” as ONE MEANING of the word during this debate. I will also accept “rulers”, “judges”, “divine ones”, “angels”, “god”, “gods”, “goddess”, “goddesses”, “godlike one”, and “works or special possesions of God” as bonafide MEANINGS of the words “el”, “eloah” and “elohim” during this debate. And I will definitely accept “vice regent of God”, (as in Moses, Deborah and Jesus), as a bonafide MEANING of the word during this debate. What the hay, I'll also accept the word “oak” as a bonafide MEANING of the word, since many Bibles translate the word “el” that way in Isaiah 57:5.
If me accepting YOUR terms and YOUR definitions for the purpose of moving forward with this debate is not enough to satisfy you………..then quit. I'm done dealing with this point. Either accept my concession, or don't.
Okay, that should cover the diversions. Are you ready to show me how it is ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that Heb 1:8 calls Jesus “God Almighty”? Or do we have yet more lawyer haggling to do before we can actually debate?
mike
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