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Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 09 2011,18:16 )
Becuase how can you explain that I, Dennison have the very same reaction when i speak about Jesus and read the scriptures abuot Jesus.
And not just that the power thats its in that Name i have seen with my very eyes.how can you explain my expierences?
SF, the thing is, I can't say if it's Jesus or God. If they are both in agreement, then for you, it may be Jesus, for me, I may say God the Father, through Jesus the Son.
When I was younger Jesus was God, that's all there was, as I've said here before.
I don't know if maybe reading and studying Jehovahs Witness magazines and book's changed my thinking or what.
But to me, God is God, and I believe we're all at different stages, no-one today, though they claim the truth, can positively say they know all truth.
God is either real or not in your life.
There are the lukewarm who are spat out.
And those who are planted, though in shallow soil
You either are part of the World and it's way's or your not.
Those who believe and follow the Shepherd are not of this World.
You say I'm gullible, haha, I CAN be. But I'm also the opposite. It depends what it is. But, that's where Gods guidance comes into it. If I trust only in him then I'm ok. The minute I trust in my own decisions, then I fail. So it's a good thing for me, in a way. Because I have learnt to trust in God and not myself.
Quote Why deal with people with the Middle east?
Did God tell you to do it, or its because you WANT to?Years ago, I felt led to be a missionary. How it happened is, I felt it and prayed and asked. And I was given scripture (book name, chapter, verse) so I looked it up. And it said “Go where I will put you, and do all that I command you” or something like that.
But, my partner (of 21 years) said 'no'….he said we were finished if I went, even if just for a few months. He told me to use the Internet. So I did. Then he told me I had to smash my computer. He wasn't interested in anything I did. To him life and conversation was all about gardening, etc, whatever interested him. He was really selfish. So, I said 'no' and continued on the Internet. So, we broke up, finished, for good. I never see him now. He has completely abandoned me and my son, who is five.
I no longer feel like going to the Middle East. Iv had nothing more about it. I think I'm just getting used to being on my own. Which takes time.I think I'm finished on this thread though. Unless JA has more to say, I don't think he does, not yet.
Were WAY off topic!
Bump For Mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,05:51) The problem you have is David didn’t do the works of God but is merely a vice-regent. However Jesus does the works.
Show me the scripture where Jesus did any works ON HIS OWN. Show me where he claimed it was by his OWN power, and NOT by the power of his Father, who was doing the works THROUGH him.mike
MikeShow me a scripture that says the Father did anything without Jesus.
Did Jesus not say that the Father gave him all things? If he has all things then the works of God are his works.
Didn't the Apostles give Jesus the Glory for healings and miracles?
DID JESUS DO THE WORKS OF GOD OR NOT MIKE?
WAS HE A PUPPET ON A STRING THAT COULD DO NOTHING ON HIS OWN?
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the “Son can do nothing by himself“; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.John 5:19
Notice the bold, Jesus says he can do nothing “by himself”, which is a statement of Deity because it means that he “Only” does what the Father does.
Can you say you can do nothing by yourself but you only do what you see the Father doing?
If you can then that means you are sinless.
Also he says “…whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Do you believe this Mike?
Do you believe Jesus can do whatever the Father does?
You see that scripture blows a big hole in your Jesus didn't create anything theory because here we see Jesus himself claiming that whatever the Father does he does. Plus we know that “Nothing came into being without him.” So you have a contradiction because you believe that more than “One” God created the Universe.
If Jesus words are true then that is “equality” and in fact it is in the same context that John says he is making himself equal to God!
He is not merely some puppet to the Father for he owns it all and it was all made by him and for him and he now sits in the Throne of God ruling the universe as God.
You can't even know the Father apart from him…
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; “neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matt 11:27
So there is your scripture that shows Jesus apart from the Father doing the greatest of all the works and that is revealing God to men. Do you see the work that Jesus here does by his own will? Jesus alone decides who can know God the Father or not.
You see Mike, no one even knows Jesus but the Father and no one knows the Father “unless Jesus reveals him”. Ha Ha, that is equality and Biblical proof that Jesus is God because men cannot know who God is apart from knowing him.
No wonder they wanted to stone him for him to claim that no man can come to God but by him. That is why they said he was making himself equal to God.
You need to ask Jesus to show you who the Father is then you can ask the Father to show you who Jesus is!
They didn't know him, DO YOU?
It is a Biblical fact that no man can say Jesus is “Lord” (YHVH) but by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3
For like Thomas it is actually seeing him by the Spirit of revelation that he is “Our Lord and God”.
WJ
Mike
You told me you will not address all the points but if there wa something you missed then I should ask it again, so I am gonna take your word on that and bring them up.
You said…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04) 1. Keith, do you understand that Jesus will eventually turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God? (1 Corinthians 15:28) Mike, do you understand that right now Jesus is “SOVEREIGN”? Also do you know that the Father is not going to take back what he has given his “Only Begotten Son”? Jesus is going to give the Kingdom back to the Father so that he and the Father will share that rule as one and be all in all. Jesus is currently “all in all” and all is in his hands.
But concerning the Kingdom, do you think Jesus will not remain the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. “Of the increase of his government and peace THERE SHALL BE NO END”, upon the throne of David, and upon “HIS KINGDOM, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth “even for ever”. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isa 9:6, 7
Is Jesus Kingdom and Kingship forever or not?
Will Jesus ever cease to be King of Kings and Lord of Lords?
WJ
Mike you said…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04) This is from Gesenius's Lexicon, as shown on the Blue Letter Bible site: To stand on the right hand of anyone is the same as to aid him (Ps 16:8, 109:31, 110:5, 121:5)
Nope no inequality here. YHVH at David’s right hand was aiding him, was YHVH inferior to David?Is YHVH doing the works of God at David's right hand inferior to David?
If not why do you assume that Jesus who is doing the works of God at the right hand of the Father is inferior to the Father?
WJ
Hi Mike
You said..
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04) Those on whom special honour is conferred are said to sit on the right hand of a king, as the queen (1 Kings 2:19, Ps 45:10), the friend of the king, or minister of the kingdom (Ps 110:1)
Jesus is not a queen but the “Only Begotten Son” whom the Father has given the Kingdom.Tell me Mike if an OT King that turned over the Kingdom to his Son to reign in his stead if the Son was inferior to his Father when he began to reign?
Does the New King of the Kingdom have less authority and power as his predecessor or is he in anyway inferior?
Can you please answer these questions.
There is your example that Jesus is the Sovereign ruler and equal to the Father for the Kingdom belongs to Jesus and he is King of Kings and Lord of Lords!
WJ
Hi Mike
You said…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04) Okay, the second part of the Lexicon deals with “sitting at the right hand”. Gesenius says that this is an honor that is CONFERRED UPON someone BY the King. Solomon CONFERS this honor upon his mother in 1 Kiings 2:19.
Such weak lame comparisons. Jesus is not a mother but is “The Son”.If the Kingship is passed on to the Son then the Son is equal to the Father is he not Mike?
A yes or no answer will do fine.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04)
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,02:52)
For all things comes from him (Jesus) to us.
That's pretty close, Keith. But actually, scripture says that all things come FROM God. And all things come THROUGH Jesus.
That’s not just close Mike. It is a fact. Now I have some questions for you…?Is Jesus the “Author of Eternal Salvation” or not?
Is Jesus the Way, the Truth and The Life or not?
Is Jesus the “Author and finisher of our faith” or not?
Does everything consist by Jesus or not?
Did anything come into being without him or not?
Is Jesus the “Eternal Life” or not?
Is all things upheld by the word of his power or not?
Does he send us the Holy Spirit or not?
Is Jesus anything to you but just a tiny little servant who is merely an empty shell that God works through?
Now after you truthfully answer these you should never say again that Jesus is not “the source” of anything should you?
He is the source of everything you receive from God because you can only receive it by or through him!
Mike these are easy questions to answer so hopefully you won't pull this “Lets deal with one point at a time” trick.
WJ
Keith said:
Quote Jesus is going to give the Kingdom back to the Father so that he and the Father will share that rule as one and be all in all.
Keith,Exactly bro! Jesus is to deliver the kingdom to His Father WILLINGLY. It has to be WILLINGLY because He PURCHASED the kingdom with His own blood. The kingdom is His to keep or to give back. The Father cannot legally or morally force Jesus to give it back because He is a God who keeps His oaths and covenants!
Keep preaching it brother! Maybe some day Mike might escape the lake of fire.
Jack
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 08 2011,15:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 09 2011,03:16) WAS HE A PUPPET ON A STRING THAT COULD DO NOTHING ON HIS OWN?
Not a puppet because puppets are dead.But he definitely did nothing of his own accord.
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Hopefully Jesus answer is good enough for you. If not, then we can't help you until you actually believe the words of Jesus.
t8Are you forgetting the part that says “whatever the Father does he does“?
That means that when the scriptures says all things came into being by him and nothing came into being without him (Jesus) then he was there doing what the Father was doing and that is creating all things.
Now how do you reconcile that with YHVH “alone” and “By himself” created all things?
t8 will you address this point please!
WJ
Hi t8
I didn't think you would answer but I will give it another try.
In what sense is Jesus “qualitatively” less in nature than the Father?
Here is another one…
In what sense are you “qualitatively” less human than your human Father?
Its the simple things of God that confounds the wise, even Jesus said you must become as little children to be in “his Kingdom“. However that is impossible for some because of their pride and their false doctrines that keep them blinded to the Glorious Gospel of “Christ“.
Are you one of them t8? John said “the Word was with God and was God”, do you believe his words, because if you don't then you are rejecting the words of God.
WJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 09 2011,10:42) Keith said: Quote Jesus is going to give the Kingdom back to the Father so that he and the Father will share that rule as one and be all in all.
Keith,Exactly bro! Jesus is to deliver the kingdom to His Father WILLINGLY. It has to be WILLINGLY because He PURCHASED the kingdom with His own blood. The kingdom is His to keep or to give back. The Father cannot legally or morally force Jesus to give it back because He is a God who keeps His oaths and covenants!
Keep preaching it brother! Maybe some day Mike might escape the lake of fire.
Jack
JackMike says Jesus is not “all in all” now.
Can you show him the scriptures?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 08 2011,20:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 09 2011,08:40)
1. Jesus is going to give the Kingdom back to the Father so that he and the Father will share that rule as one and be all in all.2. Jesus is currently “all in all” and all is in his hands.
Hi Keith,Both of the above statements you made are unscriptural and nonsensical.
MikeThere are lots of things about God that to the carnal unregenerate mind of man they are nonsensical. Do you think you can understand an infinite God and his nature by pure human logic?
You should stop trying so hard to understand with your fleshly brain and understand with your heart. For it takes the Spirit of Revelation to see the things of God.
You say that it is unscriptural that Jesus will reign with the Father in his Kingdom forever and that Jesus is not all in all.
But you did not address the scripture I gave you and there are many more that says Jesus will rule forever.
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. “Of the increase of his government and peace THERE SHALL BE NO END”, upon the throne of David, and upon “HIS KINGDOM, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth “even for ever”. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isa 9:6, 7
“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And “to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom”, that all peoples, nations, and languages “should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed”.” Daniel 7:13-14
“And the angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.’”Luke 1:30-33
“For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into “the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”.” 2 Peter 1:11
Do you believe the scriptures above Mike? You see this is why your theology is all over the place, because you do not see the big picture in the scriptures. It is called “selective theology” which means that you select certain scriptures to support your view and reject others that don’t or explain them away.
Now here is another scripture that disagrees with you…
“Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; “but Christ is all, and in all ([ta] panta kai en pasin Christos).” Colossians 3:11
Is Christ all in all?
Does Jesus Kingdom and dominion ever end?
They are yes or no answers!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 08 2011,20:14) Now if the previous verses explain that “Christ” is NOT “God Himself”
MikeWhich God are you talking about? Are you using the word God here to “identify” the Father? I thought you believed the word “God” does not identify God but only means “Ruler or Leader”?
By your statement above I could say you are talking about Jesus since the scriptures tell us Jesus is God.
But it is context isn't it Mike? Paul is making a distinction between God the Father and Jesus but in no way does it say that Jesus is not God, does it?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,03:03) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 09 2011,10:42) Keith said: Quote Jesus is going to give the Kingdom back to the Father so that he and the Father will share that rule as one and be all in all.
Keith,Exactly bro! Jesus is to deliver the kingdom to His Father WILLINGLY. It has to be WILLINGLY because He PURCHASED the kingdom with His own blood. The kingdom is His to keep or to give back. The Father cannot legally or morally force Jesus to give it back because He is a God who keeps His oaths and covenants!
Keep preaching it brother! Maybe some day Mike might escape the lake of fire.
Jack
JackMike says Jesus is not “all in all” now.
Can you show him the scriptures?
WJ
Well, somebody has to be The All in all because God can't be until Jesus freely gives back the kingdom. Paul was clear that God becomes The All in all on the condition that Jesus freely delivers the kingdom to the Father.In the meantime Jesus is The All in all (Colossians 3:11). BTW, the Corinthian passage says that God will be “THE All in all” meaning that the God will become The All who is in all people. The Colossians passage says that “Christ, is THE ALL in all who is presently in all people.
The second “all” in both passages refers to those in whom the subject resides.
God will be THE All in all (people)
Christ is THE All in all (people)
Jack
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 08 2011,20:41) [Like t8 has very CLEARLY and LOGICALLY stated, anything you apply to “Equation A” must equally be applied to “Equation B”. (ie: Jesus MUST be “God” to sit on the throne of God = Men MUST be “Jesus”, and therefore also “God”, to sit on the throne of Jesus)
MikeNot so. Because Jesus is also man. So only men not angels or any other creature can sit in Jesus throne. Revelations tell us that only Jesus shares Gods throne with the Father. Only God could sit in that throne.
Do the scriptures say that anyone but Jesus sits in the Throne of God?
So your point is a moot point.
Get it?
WJ
Hi WJ and KJ,
Man i wish i can join you with this debate about “All in all”
because based on that premise, thats exactly what the theology i believe in based on those scriptures.God is all in all. in other words the God of everything.
He said he will be all around you, God of everything around you, the God of the mountains and God of the waters.he is the one and only God. he is even the God that not only surrounds your whole world but inside you as well.
the Lord of your thoughts, the King of your soul.too bad im to busy to join in.
but i am watching carefullyQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 09 2011,16:09) Hi WJ and KJ,
Man i wish i can join you with this debate about “All in all”
because based on that premise, thats exactly what the theology i believe in based on those scriptures.God is all in all. in other words the God of everything.
He said he will be all around you, God of everything around you, the God of the mountains and God of the waters.he is the one and only God. he is even the God that not only surrounds your whole world but inside you as well.
the Lord of your thoughts, the King of your soul.too bad im to busy to join in.
but i am watching carefully
Hi DennisonIt looks like you have been busy with moderating the debate between Jack and his opponent at the Preterist board.
I do not agree with Jack nor his opponent. But I hope to see you here soon!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,04:21) Mike Not so. Because Jesus is also man. So only men not angels or any other creature can sit in Jesus throne. Revelations tell us that only Jesus shares Gods throne with the Father. Only God could sit in that throne.
Do the scriptures say that anyone but Jesus sits in the Throne of God?
So your point is a moot point.
Get it?
WJ
Here is the simple logic which you cannot argue against.You say that Jesus is God because he sits with the Father on his throne. So why don't you say that we are Jesus if we can sit with him on his throne.
The truth is that we are not Jesus (we agree here) and Jesus is not God (we disagree here).
As you can see, our stance is consistent and you one is not. Again, the Trinity causes confusion.
Now I invite you again to read the word “God: in scripture as “Trinity” as you teach that God is the Trinity.
Now watch hundreds of scriptures break.
e.g., The Trinity so loved the world that the Trinity gave HIS only begotten son …
See your theology now has to explain who the son of the Trinity which now means there are 2 sons in the new Quadinity.
Who know, 100 years from now it might be the Quadinity. It started off as the Bininty, then Trinity, and what is next?
Back to the point: Jesus sits with at God's right hand side because he is worthy and indirectly because he is not God. We can sit at the right hand of Christ for the same reasons.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,03:01) Hi t8 I didn't think you would answer but I will give it another try.
In what sense is Jesus “qualitatively” less in nature than the Father?
WJ
In the sense that Jesus origins are in God and God has no origin.In what sense is my human nature less than Adam? In the sense that Adam is the first-born human (prototype) and I am a recipient.
Remember that the giver is greater than the one who receives.
I am happy to answer your questions when they are clear and not buried deep within repetitive text that I give up reading sometimes.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,03:01) In what sense are you “qualitatively” less human than your human Father?
I have answered this above, but I will add that had Adam not sinned, then it would be taken for granted that being the original makes him special. In fact so special was his position that he passed sin onto all of his offspring.Now ask yourself why Adam is identified as one man, and adam as all men. When you can comprehend that, then you have understood the difference between quality and identity. Then understand how the word Theos and Elohim is also applied in scripture in the same way.
Obviously context and definite articles play a big part in how it is used and applied whether qualitatively or as an identifier.
We believe in one God the Father because we believe that in identity there is only one God. Qualitatively speaking we also acknowledge the reality of other uses for theos in scripture that refer not to the Most High God, but for a number of other reasons.
It seems to me where we face reality and explain it, you ignore it in order to preserve your unreal doctrine of the Trinity.
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