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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:05) Jesus is one who has been called by the title “god”, so he is also “A god”. He has not specifically been called “THE god” of anything in particular, but knowing that “god” only means “ruler”, I can honestly say that he is “my god”.
Hi MikeSo satan is greater than Jesus? Satan is “a god” over some and Jesus is “a god” over no one?
Here is your own words Mike…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) Jesus is the god, or “powerful ruler” of all in heaven right now, and of the believer's on earth.
Why do you insist on your floundering and flopping around like a fish out of water?Give it up man. You have already lost the debate by your own words.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 09 2011,06:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,05:58) Paul said there is “No God but one”. Therefore satan is a false god and a false ruler.
AND WHO DOES PAUL SAY THAT “ONE” GOD IS?!?!
See my post immediately above for ALL Paul has said.Roo
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 09 2011,06:01) the online Hebrew Interlinear renders the verb in Exodus 3:14 “I shall become who I am becoming.” This indicates that God can change Mike! http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdf
Then I should NEVER hear the “before Abraham, I AM” proof text from you, right Jack?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,05:58) Paul said there is “No God but one”. Therefore satan is a false god and a false ruler.
AND WHO DOES PAUL SAY THAT “ONE” GOD IS?!?!
AND WHO DOES PAUL SAY THAT “ONE” LORD IS?!?!WJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 09 2011,06:12) Mike wrote: Quote He has not specifically been called “THE god” Titus 2:13 & 2 Peter 1:11: JESUS “OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR”:
Quote Another excellent example of how one can actually use the errant or strained translations of the NWT to the advantage of the truth is found in the Bible’s description of Jesus as our “God and Savior” in Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1. In both instances we have an example of a syntactical7 formula in the Greek language known as Granville Sharp’s Rule, and once again, as soon as grammar enters most conversations, those involved will be looking to move elsewhere very quickly. In addition, Witnesses who are better read can always find a translation here or a scholar there to provide support for the NWT rendering. As with the previous example, however, when we take a wider approach we not only can demonstrate the bias and error of the NWT, but we can give a memorable testimony to the truth as well. Compare the NASB and the NWT on these passages:
Titus 2:13: “…looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus” (NASB).
“…while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus” (NWT).
2 Peter 1:1: “…by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (NASB).
“…by the righteousness of our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ” (NWT).
The NWT clearly seeks to put as much distance as possible between the terms “God” and “Savior,” while the NASB equates the two, describing one person, Jesus Christ, as both “God and Savior.” The Watchtower Society, which denies the deity of Christ, obviously cannot describe Him as “God and Savior,” so a wide variety of arguments have been developed to substantiate their translation; again, however, context allows the believer to establish the truth without first obtaining a degree in Greek syntax.
The context of the passage in Titus 2 indicates that only one person is in view: Christians are looking for the appearing, the coming, of Jesus Christ. The sentence continues into verse 14 with only one person, Christ, in view. He “gave Himself” to “purify for Himself” a people. This language is reminiscent of the redemptive work of Jehovah with reference to Israel (e.g., Ps. 130:7–8; Ezek. 37:23; Exod. 19:5), but here it is speaking of the work of Jesus Christ in particular. There is simply no reason to insert a gratuitous and unnatural reference to the Father into the middle of this passage unless your real reasons have nothing to do with the context or language but everything to do with your theology, as is the case with the NWT.
Being only part of the opening lines of an epistle (or “letter”), 2 Peter 1:1 does not have the kind of contextual support we find surrounding Titus 2:13. The epistle of 2 Peter as a whole, however, provides a powerful example of the inconsistency of the NWT and its blatant theological bias. Compare a transliteration of the Greek text of the last phrase in verse 1 (“…our God and Savior, Jesus Christ”) with the text only 10 verses later:
tou theou hemon kai soteros Iesou Christou (v. 1)
tou kuriou hemon kai soteros Iesou Christou (v. 11)
These phrases are grammatically and syntactically identical, with only one variation: the Greek term theou (the genitive singular form of the word “God”) in verse 1 over against the term kuriou (the genitive singular form of the word “Lord”) in verse 11.
The NWT gives itself away by translating the phrase in verse 11 correctly: “…our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” In fact, we likewise find identical grammatical constructions in 2 Peter 2:20 and 3:18 that the NWT translates correctly. The only reason for the NWT’s rendering in 2 Peter 1:1 is clear: their theology demands it and precludes the correct rendering. By starting with 2 Peter 1:11, then examining 2:20 and 3:18, and moving back to 1:1, we can demonstrate the theological bias of the translation, hopefully laying the foundation for further discussion of the specifics of the passage.
Roo
Jack,I started a Titus thread. Maybe you could answer to my first post there?
mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 09 2011,06:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 09 2011,06:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,05:58) Paul said there is “No God but one”. Therefore satan is a false god and a false ruler.
AND WHO DOES PAUL SAY THAT “ONE” GOD IS?!?!
See my post immediately above for ALL Paul has said.Roo
ALBERT BARNES ON 1 CORINTHIANS 8:6Quote 1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us – Christians. We acknowledge but one God, Whatever the pagan worship, we know that there is but one God; and he alone has a right to rule over us.
One God, the Father – Whom we acknowledge as the Father of all; Author of all things; and who sustains to all his works the relation of a father. The word “Father” here is not used as applicable to the first person of the Trinity, as distinguished from the second, but is applied to God as God; not as the Father in contradistinction from the Son, but to the divine nature as such, without reference to that distinction – the Father as distinguished from his offspring, the works that owe their origin to him. This is manifest:
(1) Because the apostle does not use the correlative term” Son” when he comes to speak of the “one Lord Jesus Christ;” and,
(2) Because the scope of the passage requires it. The apostle speaks of God, of the divine nature, the one infinitely holy Being, as sustaining the relation of Father “to his creatures.” He produced them, He provides for them. He protects them, as a father does his children. He regards their welfare; pities them in their sorrows; sustains them in trial; shows himself to be their friend. The name “Father” is thus given frequently to God, as applicable to the one God, the divine Being; Psalms 103:13; Jeremiah 31:9; Malachi 1:6; Malachi 2:10; Matthew 6:9; Luke 11:2, etc. In other places it is applied to the first person of the Trinity as distinguished from the second; and in these instances the correlative “Son” is used, Luke 10:22; Luke 22:42; John 1:18; John 3:35; John 5:19-23, John 5:26, John 5:30, John 5:36; Hebrews 1:5; II Peter 1:17, etc.
Of whom – ̓ ̔͂ ex hou . From whom as a fountain and source; by whose counsel, plan, and purpose. He is the great source of all; and all depend on him. It was by his purpose and power that all things were formed, and to all he sustains the relation of a Father. The agent in producing all things, however, was the Son, Colossians 1:16; see the note at John 1:3.
Are all things – These words evidently refer to the whole work of creation, as deriving their origin from God, Genesis 1:1. Everything has thus been formed in accordance with his plan; and all things now depend on him as their Father.
And we – We Christians. We are what we are by him. We owe our existence to him; and by him we have been regenerated and saved. It is owing to his counsel, purpose, agency, that we have an existence; and owing to him that we have the hope of eternal life. The leading idea here is, probably, that to God Christians owe their hopes and happiness.
In him – ( ̓ ̓́ eis auton ); or rather unto him: that is, we are formed for him, and should live to his glory. We have been made what we are, as Christians, that we may promote his honor and glory.
And one Lord … – One Lord in contradistinction from the “many lords” whom the pagans worshipped. The word “Lord” here is used in the sense of proprietor, ruler, governor, or king; and the idea is, that Christians acknowledge subjection to Him alone, and not to many sovereigns, as the pagans did. Jesus Christ is the Ruler and Lord of his people. They acknowledge their allegiance to him as their supreme Lawgiver and King. They do not acknowledge subjection to many rulers, whether imaginary gods or human beings; but receive their laws from him alone. The word “Lord” here does not imply of necessity any inferiority to God; since it is a term which is frequently applied to God himself. The idea in the passage is, that from God, the Father of all, we derive our existence, and all that we have; and that we acknowledge “immediate and direct” subjection to the Lord Jesus as our Lawgiver and Sovereign. From him Christians receive their laws, and to him they submit their lives. And this idea is so far from supposing inferiority in the Lord Jesus to God, that it rather supposes equality; since a right to give laws to people, to rule their consciences, to direct their religious opinions and their lives, can appropriately pertain only to one who has equality with God.
By whom … – ̓ ̔͂ di' hou . By whose “agency;” or through whom, as the agent. The word “by” ( ̓ di' ) stands in contradistinction from “of” ( ̓ ex ) in the former part of the verse; and obviously means, that, though “all things” derived their existence from God as the fountain and author, yet it was “by” the agency of the Lord Jesus. This doctrine, that the Son of God was the great agent in the creation of the world, is elsewhere abundantly taught in the Scriptures; see the note at John 1:3.
Are all things – The universe; for so the phrase ̀ ́ ta panta properly means. No words could better express the idea of the universe than these; and the declaration is therefore explicit that the Lord Jesus created all things. Some explain this of the “new creation;” as if Paul had said that all things pertaining to our salvation were from him. But the objections to this interpretation are obvious:
(1) It is not the natural signification.
(2) The phrase “all things” naturally denotes the universe.
(3) The scope of the passage requires us so to understand it. Paul is not speaking of the new creature; but he is speaking of the question whether there is more than one God, one Creator, one Ruler over the wide universe. The pagan said there was; Christians affirmed that there was not. The scope, therefore, of the passage requires us to understand this of the vast material universe; and the obvious declaration here is, that the Lord Jesus was the Creator of all.
Read more: ]http://www.bibletools.org/index.c….]
Jack
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,06:13)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:05) Jesus is one who has been called by the title “god”, so he is also “A god”. He has not specifically been called “THE god” of anything in particular, but knowing that “god” only means “ruler”, I can honestly say that he is “my god”.
Hi MikeSo satan is greater than Jesus? Satan is “a god” over some and Jesus is “a god” over no one?
Did I say that Jesus is a god “over no one”? YES or NO? If the answer is “NO”, then you need to stop playing these games. If the answer is “YES”, then please show me where I said that.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,06:13) Here is your own words Mike… Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) Jesus is the god, or “powerful ruler” of all in heaven right now, and of the believer's on earth.
Why do you insist on your floundering and flopping around like a fish out of water?Give it up man. You have already lost the debate by your own words.WJ
The correct English is “here ARE your own words”.
And my words are right here in black and white for all to see. I stand by them, for they are scriptural.Why do you resort to JA-like ad hominems? Change “floundering” to “thrashing”, and I would think it WAS JA who wrote this!
The debate stems on the one question that I supersized. Have you answered it yet?
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,06:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,05:58) Paul said there is “No God but one”. Therefore satan is a false god and a false ruler.
AND WHO DOES PAUL SAY THAT “ONE” GOD IS?!?!
AND WHO DOES PAUL SAY THAT “ONE” LORD IS?!?!WJ
Are you refusing to answer my simple question, Keith?mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 09 2011,06:22) The word “Father” here is not used as applicable to the first person of the Trinity, as distinguished from the second, but is applied to God as God; not as the Father in contradistinction from the Son, but to the divine nature as such, without reference to that distinction
And Barnes is who? Is he an apostle? Christ? God? No, he is just a man spouting trinitarian poppycock.Jack, is our hope to become BROTHERS of Jesus………or SONS of Jesus?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,06:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,05:58) Paul said there is “No God but one”. Therefore satan is a false god and a false ruler.
AND WHO DOES PAUL SAY THAT “ONE” GOD IS?!?!
AND WHO DOES PAUL SAY THAT “ONE” LORD IS?!?!WJ
Are you refusing to answer my simple question, Keith?mike
MikeI have answered this a thousand times.
If the term One God does not include Jesus, then the term “One Lord” does not include the Father.
AND WHO DOES PAUL SAY THAT “ONE” LORD IS?!?!
SO IS THE FATHER LORD OR NOT?
WJj
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,06:13)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:05) Jesus is one who has been called by the title “god”, so he is also “A god”. He has not specifically been called “THE god” of anything in particular, but knowing that “god” only means “ruler”, I can honestly say that he is “my god”.
Hi MikeSo satan is greater than Jesus? Satan is “a god” over some and Jesus is “a god” over no one?
Did I say that Jesus is a god “over no one”? YES or NO? If the answer is “NO”, then you need to stop playing these games. If the answer is “YES”, then please show me where I said that.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,06:13) Here is your own words Mike… Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) Jesus is the god, or “powerful ruler” of all in heaven right now, and of the believer's on earth.
Why do you insist on your floundering and flopping around like a fish out of water?Give it up man. You have already lost the debate by your own words.WJ
And my words are right here in black and white for all to see. I stand by them, for they are scriptural.
Hi MikeAnd thats where you lose the debate when you say there are other gods when the scriptures says there is “Only One True God”!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,06:13) Give it up man. You have already lost the debate by your own words.
No Keith, it is YOU who has “lost the debate” by insisting “only true God” must be taken literally. Because that “only true God” is none other than THE FATHER.And just look back at all the diversions you and Jack have tried to bring into this debate about one simple thing.
It's not about flooding the thread with thousands of scriptures – it's about taking the ONE scripture to the limits and finding out if it REALLY says what you guys claim it does.
And right now, this scripture is John 17:3. And you only have three choices about John 17:3………
1. Jesus IS the Father
2. Jesus is a false god
3. “only true God” is an emphatic way of saying, “while there ARE other gods mentioned in scripture, you are the only true God, because you are the God of all those other gods”.
Which one fits in with the rest of scripture, Keith? Only one of them does, you know.
peace and love and understanding to you,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,06:38) Mike I have answered this a thousand times.
If the term One God does not include Jesus, then the term “One Lord” does not include the Father.
“INCLUDE JESUS”?
How in the world could Paul saying our one God is THE FATHER “include Jesus”? Especially when, as you so largely point out, Jesus is listed in the same exact sentence as someone OTHER THAN the Father, who is our ONE God?mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:49) No Keith, it is YOU who has “lost the debate” by insisting “only true God” must be taken literally.
Hi MikeOh so the scriptures aren't to be taken litterally?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,06:42) Hi Mike And thats where you lose the debate when you say there are other gods when the scriptures says there is “Only One True God”!
And that's where YOU lose the debate when scriptures say it is the Father who is our only true God, and you try to say that others are that only true God.mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,06:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:49) No Keith, it is YOU who has “lost the debate” by insisting “only true God” must be taken literally.
Hi MikeOh so the scriptures aren't to be taken litterally?
WJ
I'm done with this for now, Keith. If you want to take it literally, then take it all the way and acknowledge that Jesus is NOT the Father who is said to be that “only true God”.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,06:38) Mike I have answered this a thousand times.
If the term One God does not include Jesus, then the term “One Lord” does not include the Father.
“INCLUDE JESUS”? How in the world could Paul saying our one God is THE FATHER “include Jesus”? Especially when, as you so largely point out, Jesus is listed in the same exact sentence as someone OTHER THAN the Father, who is our ONE God?mike
Hi MikeThe same way One Lord includes the Father!
AND WHO DOES PAUL SAY THAT “ONE” LORD IS?!?!
SO IS THE FATHER LORD OR NOT?
You do get this don't you?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,06:42) Hi Mike And thats where you lose the debate when you say there are other gods when the scriptures says there is “Only One True God”!
And that's where YOU lose the debate when scriptures say it is the Father who is our only true God, and you try to say that others are that only true God.mike
No MikeI say there is “Only One True God” and you say there are other true gods.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,06:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,06:38) Mike I have answered this a thousand times.
If the term One God does not include Jesus, then the term “One Lord” does not include the Father.
“INCLUDE JESUS”? How in the world could Paul saying our one God is THE FATHER “include Jesus”? Especially when, as you so largely point out, Jesus is listed in the same exact sentence as someone OTHER THAN the Father, who is our ONE God?mike
Hi MikeThe same way One Lord includes the Father!
AND WHO DOES PAUL SAY THAT “ONE” LORD IS?!?!
SO IS THE FATHER LORD OR NOT?
You do get this don't you?
WJ
Keith, that “one Lord” does NOT “include” the Father. What makes you think it does?mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,06:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,06:42) Hi Mike And thats where you lose the debate when you say there are other gods when the scriptures says there is “Only One True God”!
And that's where YOU lose the debate when scriptures say it is the Father who is our only true God, and you try to say that others are that only true God.mike
No MikeI say there is “Only One True God” and you say there are other true gods.
WJ
No Keith,I say that “one true God” is the Father, and you say it is the Father AND the Son.
mike
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