Mikeboll64 vrs worshippingjesus

[mikeboll64]

On second thought, I don't want to start playing your same games on this debate thread as I have been in the other, so I'll spell it out.

We both agree the “all” isn't absolute, or it would mean than no one else, including the Father, would have any power and authority at all.

So we have two things it could mean:
1.  He has “all” power up to and equal to the Father.
2.  He has “all” the power his God allowed him to have which is still less than the amount of power the One who gave him this power has.

I vote for #2.  I'll give you one scripture that supports my view, then you can refute my interpretation and give one scripture that supports your view.  Fair enough?

Matt 28:18 AMP Version
Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

Why does this translation have (all power OF RULE) added?  Net notes says of the Greek word translated sometimes as “power” and sometimes as “authority”,

exousia
1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases 1a) leave or permission 2) physical and mental power 2a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises 3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege) 4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)

The AMP translation with explanation fits nicely with the fact that God has placed Jesus as King of heaven and earth.

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Mike

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2010,00:10)

On second thought, I don't want to start playing your same games on this debate thread as I have been in the other, so I'll spell it out.

My games? It is you that makes claims without backing it with scriptures. I asked you to prove your assertion that “All authority and Power” does not mean “All” using scriptures and then you answer me with the same question again in which you already know my answer.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2010,00:10)

We both agree the “all” isn't absolute, or it would mean than no one else, including the Father, would have any power and authority at all.

No it is you that believes that. I believe that the Father has given all things into Jesus hands according to Matt 28:18 – John 3:35 – John 5:22 – John 13:3 – John 16:15.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2010,00:10)

So we have two things it could mean: 1.  He has “all” power up to and equal to the Father. 2.  He has “all” the power his God allowed him to have which is still less than the amount of power the One who gave him this power has.

So now you admit that it could mean “up to and equal to the Father”? Now all you have to do is show scripturally where Jesus does not have “All” or that he has less “authority and power” than the Father.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2010,00:10)

I vote for #2.  I'll give you one scripture that supports my view, then you can refute my interpretation and give one scripture that supports your view.  Fair enough? Matt 28:18 AMP Version Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Why does this translation have (all power OF RULE) added?  Net notes says of the Greek word translated sometimes as “power” and sometimes as “authority”, exousia 1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases 1a) leave or permission 2) physical and mental power 2a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises 3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege) 4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed) The AMP translation with explanation fits nicely with the fact that God has placed Jesus as King of heaven and earth.

What is it in that verse that leads you to believe that “All” does not mean all? The Amp says…

“ALL AUTHORITY (ALL POWER OF RULE) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me”

It doesn't say “…”all” the power his God allowed him to have“, does it Mike?

Now put that with John 3:35 – John 5:22 – John 13:3 – John 16:15 – Eph 1:21, 22 – Eph 4:10 and the fact that Jesus is yet to subject himself and the Kingdom to the Father (1 Cor 15:24-28) then it is obvious that Jesus is “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” and rules supreme with all the Authority and Power that the Father has.

Can you prove with scripture that “All” does not mean “All” when referring to the Father giving Jesus “all things”? (John 3:35 – John 5:22 – John 13:3 – John 16:15 – Eph 1:21, 22 – Eph 4:10)

WJ

[mikeboll64]

I don't know why I even bother with you anymore.  You're not after truth.  You believe you have it and are willing to do anything – including ignoring scripture – to keep YOUR  man-made truth.  You are playing games again.  Did we not already BOTH agree that the “all” isn't ABSOLUTE, or it would mean Jesus has ALL POWER to the point the Father has none?

Is that the case?  You answered NO!  Now you come back with “how do you know the “all” isn't absolute.  Why?  Because you don't want to deal with the consequences that involves.

Action:  ADMITTING THE “ALL” IS NOT ABSOLUTE OR IT WOULD MEAN THE FATHER HAD NO POWER AT ALL.

Consequence:  IF YOU ADMIT IT CANNOT POSSIBLY BE ABSOLUTE, THEN HOW DO YOU COME UP WITH YOUR CONCLUSION THAT THE AMOUNT OF POWER THE “ALL” ENTAILS IS THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF POWER THAT THE ONE WHO GAVE THE POWER HAS?

This was the question you were to answer.  Are you ready to do that?  Do you have scriptures that say Jesus now has the same amount of power God has?  For I have plenty that say he doesn't.

Don't play games Keith.  Answer the bolded question please.  And if you have supporting scriptures, paste ONE of them so we can discuss whether that's what the scripture is really saying or not.  THEN we can move on to one of mine that says different and discuss it.  Then your turn again.  Get it?  Maybe we can get somewhere, but not until you stop playing.  You already said Jesus doesn't have MORE power than the Father, so show how you know he has the EXACT SAME AMOUNT AS THE FATHER.

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Mike

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:27)

I don't know why I even bother with you anymore.

The feelings are mutual. I answered your every point and now you once again start over and come back with an evasive post!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:27)

You're not after truth.  You believe you have it and are willing to do anything – including ignoring scripture – to keep YOUR  man-made truth.  You are playing games again.

Hi all! The above is called “ad hominem”. This is usually the tactic that someone uses in order to discredit the person through a personal attack on the character of the person. The purpose is to distract from the subject being discussed or in this case my post above which addresses Mikes every point “With Scripture”, yet here Mike claims I am not interested in truth and am ignoring scriptures when he in his post completely ignores the scriptures in my post and continues with conjecture once again.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:27)

Did we not already BOTH agree that the “all” isn't ABSOLUTE, or it would mean Jesus has ALL POWER to the point the Father has none? Is that the case?  You answered NO!

No I did not agree that it means that Jesus would be above the Father if he has “Absolute” authority. That is your assumption. This was my answer to you…

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2010,15:39)

The answer is an obvious “NO”, because scriptures tell us Jesus is not above the Father nor beneath the Father but at his right hand! This is another one of your ridiculous questions and in fact is just another way of rewording a question that has already been answered by me more than once.

I have repeatedly said that Jesus has “Equal” authority and power as the Father based on the scriptures I have given you which you ignore.

The word absolute means…

1. Perfect in quality or nature; complete.
2. Not mixed; pure. See Synonyms at pure.
3, Not limited by restrictions or exceptions; unconditional: absolute trust. (American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)

Do you think the Father has” absolute trust” in the Son having “all authority and power”?

Do you think the Son absolutely represents all that the Father is in quality and nature?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:27)

Now you come back with “how do you know the “all” isn't absolute.  Why?  Because you don't want to deal with the consequences that involves. Action:  ADMITTING THE “ALL” IS NOT ABSOLUTE OR IT WOULD MEAN THE FATHER HAD NO POWER AT ALL.

No this is your own flawed human reasoning again at work Mike. For example, my wife and I are “One flesh”. We have a bank account with money in that account. By law she has “absolute” access to that money and that account just as I do. We are equal. She could withdraw “absolutely” all the money and close the account without my permission and so could I. We have equal access to the account, “Absolute Authority” is shared!

Can you see how that we both have absolute access as well as authority and power over that account and yet not one being over the other? Once again you are creating a false dichotomy based on your own theory rather than on the scriptures.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:27)

Consequence:  IF YOU ADMIT IT CANNOT POSSIBLY BE ABSOLUTE, THEN HOW DO YOU COME UP WITH YOUR CONCLUSION THAT THE AMOUNT OF POWER THE “ALL” ENTAILS IS THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF POWER THAT THE ONE WHO GAVE THE POWER HAS?

I never admitted what you assume here without scriptural support.

This is what happened Mike…

I posted…

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 02 2010,12:47)

Hi Mike Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 01 2010,07:39) How can Jesus be greater than the Father unless the Father gave him greater authority and power than he had which by the way is infinite? Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 01 2010,19:18) Jesus can't be greater than the Father. Thanks Mike. So you admit then that Jesus could not be greater than the Father based on his statement that the Father has given him “All authority and Power”, which means your question… Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2010,21:33) Just answer this:  When it says “all power and authority”, does it mean above Jehovah or not? has no merit for the Father could not give Jesus more “Authority or Power” than he has. Does Jesus claim that he has all “Authority and Power” mean he has less “Authority and Power” than the Father has? WJ

Here… (6th post down)

You responded…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2010,11:22)

Hi WJ, You asked: Quote Does Jesus claim that he has all “Authority and Power”  mean he has less “Authority and Power” than the Father has? Yes.  And I think many scriptures clarify this.  But just the fact that Jesus is at the right hand of the One he calls “my God” makes it clear that God is the greater, Jesus is the lesser of the two. Question:  IF WE KNOW THE “ALL” IS RELATIVE, NOT ABSOLUTE, THEN IS IT EVEN REMOTELY POSSIBLE THAT IT MEANS JEHOVAH HAS GIVEN JESUS “ALL POWER AND AUTHORITY” ALMOST UP TO, BUT N OT INCLUDING OR EQUAL TO, THE AMOUNT OF POWER AND AUTHORITY THAT JESUS' OWN GOD HAS? mike

Here… (7th post down)

Then I said…

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 09 2010,16:51)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2010,11:22) Hi WJ, You asked: Quote Does Jesus claim that he has all “Authority and Power”  mean he has less “Authority and Power” than the Father has? Yes.  And I think many scriptures clarify this.  But just the fact that Jesus is at the right hand of the One he calls “my God” makes it clear that God is the greater, Jesus is the lesser of the two. Question:  IF WE KNOW THE “ALL” IS RELATIVE, NOT ABSOLUTE, THEN IS IT EVEN REMOTELY POSSIBLE THAT IT MEANS JEHOVAH HAS GIVEN JESUS “ALL POWER AND AUTHORITY” ALMOST UP TO, BUT NOT INCLUDING OR EQUAL TO, THE AMOUNT OF POWER AND AUTHORITY THAT JESUS' OWN GOD HAS? mike Mike Prove it scripturally! WJ

 Here… (9th post own)

Then you attempted to prove your assumption using Jesus own words in the “Amp” version which contradict what you are trying to prove Here… (1st post)

So then I address every point of your post Here… ( 2nd post down), and now you say I am playing games!

You have not proven your assumption based on scriptures. I have shown you scriptures that claim Jesus “has all” and you have shown nothing to support your question which is based on your assumption that “all” means “less”.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:27)

This was the question you were to answer.  Are you ready to do that?

Once again I have answered your question but not as you like. You have not proven your assumption.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:27)

Do you have scriptures that say Jesus now has the same amount of power God has?

Yes.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, “ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. Matt 28:18

Every major translation renders the verse as such. No translation that I know of says “all the power my God has allowed me to have has been given to me”, does it Mike?

As well as these…John 3:35 – John 5:22 – John 13:3 – John 16:15 – Eph 1:21, 22 – Eph 4:10.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:27)

For I have plenty that say he doesn't.

Really? Then why haven’t you shown us these contradictions?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:27)

Don't play games Keith.  Answer the bolded question please.  And if you have supporting scriptures, paste ONE of them so we can discuss whether that's what the scripture is really saying or not.  THEN we can move on to one of mine that says different and discuss it.  Then your turn again.  Get it?  Maybe we can get somewhere, but not until you stop playing.

It is you that plays the game of “start over” without addressing the points.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:27)

You already said Jesus doesn't have MORE power than the Father, so show how you know he has the EXACT SAME AMOUNT AS THE FATHER.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, “ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. Matt 28:18

Now prove scripturally that Jesus means less authority than the Father, then you may have a point.

You cannot pull your smokescreen games with me Mike. I will hold your feet to the fire.

WJ

[mikeboll64]

No Keith,

It is I who will hold YOUR feet to the fire.

I asked if “all” is absolute to the extent that the Father and noone else has ANY power at all.

You said in effect NO.

So my only question to you is:  How then do you come up with the conclusion that the “all” means “equal amount to the power the Father has”?

Do you follow this logic?  If the “all” doesn't REALLY mean “ALL THE POWER IN EXISTENCE”, then it really stands for “a set amount” of power.  So which scriptures lead you to believe that “set amount” is the exact SAME amount the Father has?

Here, I'll start.  “The Father is GREATER than me”.  To me, that means the “set amount” of power Jesus was given is a lot, but NOT AS MUCH AS THE FATHER STILL HAS.

I'll even refute it for you so you know how this is supposed to be done.

Mike, Jesus said that BEFORE his Father had given him “all” power and authority.  Here's my first scripture that explains that the “all” means “the same amount as the Father has”……..(insert ONE scripture here)

Try it like this, Keith.  Maybe we'll get somewhere.  I have many scriptures to support my view – where's your first one to support your view?  Matt 28:18 doesn't say a word about Jesus having the SAME amount of power his God has.  What else ya got?

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Mike

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:27)

You already said Jesus doesn't have MORE power than the Father, so show how you know he has the EXACT SAME AMOUNT AS THE FATHER.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, “ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. Matt 28:18

Now prove scripturally that Jesus means less authority than the Father, then you may have a point.

You cannot pull your smokescreen games with me Mike. I will hold your feet to the fire.

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 17 2010,15:54)

Mike Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:27) You already said Jesus doesn't have MORE power than the Father, so show how you know he has the EXACT SAME AMOUNT AS THE FATHER. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, “ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. Matt 28:18 Now prove scripturally that Jesus means less authority than the Father, then you may have a point. You cannot pull your smokescreen games with me Mike. I will hold your feet to the fire. WJ

You are the one asserting it means “THE SAME AMOUNT OF POWER THE FATHER HAS”.

Prove it.

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 17 2010,19:54)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 17 2010,15:54) Mike Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:27) You already said Jesus doesn't have MORE power than the Father, so show how you know he has the EXACT SAME AMOUNT AS THE FATHER. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, “ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. Matt 28:18 Now prove scripturally that Jesus means less authority than the Father, then you may have a point. You cannot pull your smokescreen games with me Mike. I will hold your feet to the fire. WJ You are the one asserting it means “THE SAME AMOUNT OF POWER THE FATHER HAS”. Prove it. mike

Mike

I don't have to prove it.

Jesus own words speak for themselves!

You are asserting that “All” means less.

Prove it!

WJ

[mikeboll64]

No, I am asserting that the “all” doesn't mean absolute or the Father would have no power at all.  You agree that that is NOT the case.

So how do YOU come up with the amount of power spoken of as being THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT AS GOD HAS?

What scripture tells you that Jesus has the SAME amount of power as his God?

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Mike

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2010,12:42)

No, I am asserting that the “all” doesn't mean absolute or the Father would have no power at all.  You agree that that is NOT the case.

No that is merely conjecture again.

You cannot refute the facts of Matt 28:19 with your conjecture that “all” doesn't mean absolute because you say absolute means the Father has none. Prove it.

I have given you the definition of “Absolute” (six post up) and an explanation. You ignored it and continue with your false dichotomy.

The scritpures says Jesus has “All” authority and power”, you have failed to prove even with your “Amp” example that this is not so.

Stop with your unfounded conjecture and prove that all means Jesus has less than the Father based on the scriptures.

Otherwise my confession is Jesus has “All authority and  power” in heaven and in earth as his own words claim.

While yours will be “Jesus has some authority and power” in heaven and in earth” which is not scriptural.

Does Jesus have “All” or not? If not prove it!

Again you are trying to prove something on conjecture and not what the scripture says.

Shall we bring SF to force your feet to the fire again?

All major translations render Matt 28:18 the same and do not even give a hint that “All” means less or is not absolute!

Jesus didn't say “all that the Father has allowed me to have” or “some authority or power”, did he?

So rather than making inferences, prove what you say.

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Absolutely! Let's bring in a moderator!

Scripture says Jesus has BEEN GIVEN “all power and authority”. If that literally means “ALL”, then it means Jesus holds “every last bit of power in existence”. That would mean the Father has none. So therefore, the “all” must not be absolute.

WJ has agreed that it doesn't mean Jesus has MORE power than the Father, and he has agreed that it doesn't mean the Father has NO POWER at all.

That means the “all” cannot possibly mean “every last bit of power in existence” and therefore, the “all” is quantitive, not “absolute”.

This is my stand. I will let Dennison know we need him.

mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Hi All,
Well I understand both stands, but I have no idea what you want me to do about it.

Do you want me to tell you my opinion or what holds valid.

Ill just state from what i have seen so far from the very small review that Mike gave me.

Quote

Scripture says Jesus has BEEN GIVEN “all power and authority”.  If that literally means “ALL”, then it means Jesus holds “every last bit of power in existence”.  That would mean the Father has none.  So therefore, the “all” must not be absolute.

Scripture states that Jesus been been given ALL power and authority.  This is valid.
That the father wouldnt have any power is only a conjecture, becuase scriptures states that the father does have power.
“All” can be abosulte becuase WJ believes its the same person and not different entities.

first of all what the defintion of “all”?

The Terms
All:
the whole of (used in referring to quantity, extent, or duration):
Power:
1. ability to do or act; capability of doing or accomplishing something.
2. political or national strength: the balance of power in Europe.
3. great or marked ability to do or act; strength; might; force.
4. the possession of control or command over others authority; ascendancy: power over men's minds.
Authority:  
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.

Quote

WJ has agreed that it doesn't mean Jesus has MORE power than the Father, and he has agreed that it doesn't mean the Father has NO POWER at all.

When bible refers to all its speaks of the omnipotence and eternity.
Since Gods power is eternal and never ending, than it would be impossible for their to be an end, and even absulotly impossible for their to be greater than eternity since there is no exact end to be greater than.

like the numbers, 8 is greater than 7 because there is an end.
if the numbers is expressed by eternity, than there can never be a number greater bc there is no definite number to be greater than, because it continues forever.

The concept of eternity can be the same as Love, because no matter how much you use love, it doesnt end, so therefore its on going, and the more you use it, the more it grows.

but one could have less power, but the concept of All does not pertain to that.
So the conclusion is that the All pertains to eternity because that is the highest never ending power of God.

Unless you can prove that All is refered to a specfic plain.
As in all power within temporal time, or all power over the earth and what not.

Quote

That means the “all” cannot possibly mean “every last bit of power in existence” and therefore, the “all” is quantitive, not “absolute”.

How do you reach that conclusion?  
This really depends in how you look at things,
If you believe that the Father and Son are seperate beings than one would conclude that the Son has authority over the Father.  
If you believe that the Father and the Son are the same being than it wouldnt matter.  there wouldnt even be a need to sweat.  
So to say that it doesnt mean absolute power would need proof otherwise, becuase the scripture states all, a whole of power and authority.

If i say i have all the power in earth, than i have all the power in earth. thats it. nothing more or less.

in conclusion:
Scripture states that Jesus was GIVEN all power and authority,
Since nothing isnt greater than eternity, it would include etenity which wouldnt leave the father without power because he IS eternity.

in other words if i was left naked in the streets and all i have is God, than i have everything.

When it comes to Jesus, It states he has all authority and Power.  unless one proves he was less than that in his ORGINAL position, or his current position excluding his fleshly position, than there is more to argue about.

If mike can prove that this power is limited to a specfic dominion than that would also continue the debate.

so basically to deteremine what All Is pertaining too,

Its bassicaly the 5W's questions

Of Who – Jesus,
Of What – All Power of Authority
When – Orginal Position and current.
Over Where – ???
and Why- ?

To disprove that its about the eternal All,
1.Proof of the all pertains to a limitation
2. To Prove a specfic dominion which would limit the power
3. All refers to something else,

It this what you wanted me to comment on or not?

Realize that i have not read the whole thread.
I have read most of it,
and from what i have read is that Wj believes that Jesus had the eternal all,
and Mike believes its limited to a specfic quantity.

Im sure that mike would not like my response
but i am being unbiased,
im just stating what i have seen so far.

[mikeboll64]

Okay.  Thanks Dennison.  I respect your opinion (you trinni-lover ) and thank you for taking out of your time to help us.

WJ, let me go at it another way.  1 Cor 15:27 says,

27For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

We could also take the “everything” as an absolute, just like the “all”.  And in so doing, we can only understand this passage one of three different ways:

1.  Everything INCLUDING God, is under Jesus' feet.

2.  Jesus IS God, and therefore by saying everything is under his feet, we are simultaneously saying everything is under God's feet, so like Dennison said, “no sweat”.

3.  The “everything” is NOT absolute, but “relative” or “quantitive”.

Which is it in this passage?  Well thankfully, Paul adds a disclaimer so we know what is meant.  The fact that he adds the words, “it is CLEAR” speaks volumes to me.  In other words, “Duh, Jesus is NOT God, so it should be clear even to knuckleheads that 'everything' doesn't include the One that is so far above Jesus that He has the power to PUT EVERYTHING UNDER JESUS if He chooses to!”  And although Paul doesn't word it as eloquently as I just did ,  he does make it crystal clear that Jesus is one entity that has “everything” put under his feet by God, who is a different entity that CLEARLY isn't included in that “everything” because He's the One who put “everything” under Jesus' in the first place.

In light of Paul's disclaimer in 1 Cor, would it not be irresponsible of us to assume that while the “everything” is relative, the “all” isn't?  Especially considering that it is the Father (who Jesus still calls “my God”) that “GAVE” all power and authority to his Son in the first place?

mike

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