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Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 28 2010,19:26) WJ seemed to think that was funny. I challenge any of you to show where I wanted to start over in this thead. This thread started when I posted a response from WJ from another thread. 
You started over again because when you addressed the first point of my post here (8th post down), I answered you point by point here the 2nd post down.Then you posted the question again here (fifth post down) totally ignoring my points even though you now admit that your question is irrelevant by your statements…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2010,22:22) My answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT. It doesn't prove he WAS the Son prior to coming in the flesh any more than it proves he was NOT the Son prior to coming in the flesh…..I CANNOT EVEN COME CLOSE TO PROVING JESUS WAS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD PRIOR TO HIS COMING IN FLESH WITH ONLY THE FACT THAT HE WASN'T CALLED THAT UNTIL HE CAME IN THE FLESH. AND I WILLINGLY ADMIT THAT. THAT IS WHY I WON'T USE THIS INFO AS MY FOUNDATION – GET IT?
Then I answered you again “point by point” here (3rd post down) in which you responded here (2nd post down) with a thank you for answering and then continued to argue the whole point all over again, then you ask me the following question (so far without addressing any of my points)…Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2010,20:59) Question: Do you agree that the point you made is inconclusive as to when Jesus became the only begotten Son of God, and therefore a “non-issue” which should be disregarded?
Then you finally answer one of my points by answering the question about Jesus being a man before he came in the flesh and your answer was…Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2010,20:59) I do not know the answer to that… But was the “Son of Man” a literal “man” in heaven before he came in the flesh? I can't say.
Of course when I address this point in my next post here (third post down), then that was the end of that discussion.But then in your same post here (2nd post down), you answered my question with a question.
So I responded to all your points once again here (third post down), then you claim in your next post here (4th post down) that you were frustrated, and then begin whining again about the post.
You said…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2010,20:22) Hi Keith, Man, this is frustrating.
Then you completely bail out of my post where all I was doing is responding to your every point as I always did. Then you make all these claims about me throwing all my beliefs at once at you and all kinds of ad-hominems and start all over with a completely new question.Then is when I said I have had enough of your diversions and challenged you to a debate here (5th and 6th post down) with a referee to make sure you cannot continue your diversional tricks by not answering my points yet demanding I answer yours.
Then you decide to answer my question put back at you to show how your own tactics are, and you responded with a bunch of points here (4th post down), admitting that you could not prove the point that you were arguing and then expounding all kinds of points and asking me the same question that you already had the answer for.
So once again instead of whining about you changing gears all over again I answered your every point once again here (8th post down), then you came back answering a few of my points while denying most of it So I said I will answer your diversional post in time, then you come up with a whole new game and set of rules that I have to follow, namely answering your last two post which is full of your own points and opinions. As soon as I answer those points, “point by point” which will make for a longer post then you will come back and whine again that there is two many points to address.
Folks this is how a debate evolves. Mike wants to dance around one point and hold me to being able to only say what he wants to hear though the question or points need to be dealt with by making other points that relate.
I am not playing your game Mike. For in your game I have to answer all of your points while you answer hardly any of mine.
This is all I have to say about this, and if you take my challenge on the debate then I suggest we pick like JA or SF and set some rules and get with it!
This is where I left off and now once again restate my position…
When you start answering my points and questions then we can continue.
You have completely avoided 3 posts now without responding to the points that I made.
I am done with your games Mike, so here is what I want to do.
Since you insist on smokescreens and diversions then we need to have a formal debate like you and Jack so that you can't keep pulling these diversional tricks.
I challenge you to a debate on the words “monogenes” and “prototokos” in relation to Jesus and his origins.
It seems to me the only thing you want to answer and discuss is what you want Mike. You are not willing to take a walk through the scriptures point by point and discuss them, and that doesn't mean that other points cannot relate to the subject and in fact that is what dialogue and debate is about.
Since you do not care to post and then me respond to your points and then you reply to mine, then let’s do it in a format that we both have to stick to, and especially wh
ere you and I can be held to the fire.I am not chasing your rabbit trails any longer.
WJ
Mike
BTW the first point like SF has stated is still open and not closed just because you say it is!
WJ
PLEASE can someone tell me what Scriptures actually says that Jesus created:
Powers;Principilities; things visible or invisible all things were created “THROUGH Him” – The Holy Spirit being active in Him.
The holy Spirit of God.The Principle Son of God – ALL [good] THINGS are attributed to the Principle SON – Just as ALL [good] things are attributed to the Master builder even though many others were involved
Do we not know that Satan was also involved – or else what use were the angels? bystanders who just “Shouted with joy”.
– And who are the “Stars” who “Sang together”
noone can answer me:
– Why?
– Fear??
– of What??
– Admission??
– of What??
– truth??JustAskin asked:
Quote Powers;Principilities; things visible or invisible all things were created “THROUGH Him” – The Holy Spirit being active in Him.
The holy Spirit of God.
The word “through” means “by.” All things wwere creted “by” Him. The Father Himself testifies that Jesus created the earth and the heavens:But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
KJ
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 30 2010,07:15) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 30 2010,01:04) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 30 2010,06:58) SimplyForgiven said: Quote Anyways Jesus created all those things. he CREATED all.
He created time, he created what takes up space, and what has mass.
Amen and Amen!the Roo
sf,Trinitarians have the testimony of the Father Himself:
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Mikeboll has tried to debunk the Father's testimony but to no avail. If the Father was Mike's God like he claims, then he would not argue about it.
KJ
What scripture is this KJ?
Hebrews 1:8-10KJ
WorshippingJesus said to Mikeboll:
Quote Then you posted the question again here (fifth post down) totally ignoring my points even though you now admit that your question is irrelevant by your statements… Typical Mikester gaffe statement!
the Roo
WorshippingJesus said to Mikeboll:
Quote Then I answered you again “point by point” here (3rd post down) in which you responded here (2nd post down) with a thank you for answering and then continued to argue the whole point all over again, then you ask me the following question (so far without addressing any of my points)…
Typical Mikester filibuster technique
the Roo
WorshippingJesus said to Mikeboll:
Quote So I responded to all your points once again here (third post down), then you claim in your next post here (4th post down) that you were frustrated, and then begin whining again about the post.
As my dad would say to me as a child, “Want a little cheese with your whine?”
the Roo
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 29 2010,15:37) Why do we have to answer only Mikes questions?
SFExactly!
WJ
Worshippingjesus said:
Quote Folks this is how a debate evolves. Mike wants to dance around one point and hold me to being able to only say what he wants to hear though the question or points need to be dealt with by making other points that relate.
Bang boom bro! This is why Mike and I will hammer out all terms and procedures before our opening statements will be posted.Jack
WorshippingJesus said to Mikeboll:
Quote I am not chasing your rabbit trails any longer.
Amen! Preach it brother!Jack
Quote (JustAskin @ June 29 2010,15:27) PLEASE can someone tell me what Scriptures actually says that Jesus created:
Powers;Principilities; things visible or invisible all things were created “THROUGH Him” – The Holy Spirit being active in Him.
The holy Spirit of God.The Principle Son of God – ALL [good] THINGS are attributed to the Principle SON – Just as ALL [good] things are attributed to the Master builder even though many others were involved
Do we not know that Satan was also involved – or else what use were the angels? bystanders who just “Shouted with joy”.
– And who are the “Stars” who “Sang together”
noone can answer me:
– Why?
– Fear??
– of What??
– Admission??
– of What??
– truth??
All things came into being through Him, and “APART FROM HIM NOTHING CAME INTO BEING THAT HAS COME INTO BEING. John 1:3WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2010,08:03) Quote (JustAskin @ June 29 2010,15:27) PLEASE can someone tell me what Scriptures actually says that Jesus created:
Powers;Principilities; things visible or invisible all things were created “THROUGH Him” – The Holy Spirit being active in Him.
The holy Spirit of God.The Principle Son of God – ALL [good] THINGS are attributed to the Principle SON – Just as ALL [good] things are attributed to the Master builder even though many others were involved
Do we not know that Satan was also involved – or else what use were the angels? bystanders who just “Shouted with joy”.
– And who are the “Stars” who “Sang together”
noone can answer me:
– Why?
– Fear??
– of What??
– Admission??
– of What??
– truth??
All things came into being through Him, and “APART FROM HIM NOTHING CAME INTO BEING THAT HAS COME INTO BEING. John 1:3WJ
Keith,JA is saying that “through” means that Christ did not Himself do the creating. But the Father Himself says otherwise (Heb. 1:8-10).
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 29 2010,16:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2010,08:03) Quote (JustAskin @ June 29 2010,15:27) PLEASE can someone tell me what Scriptures actually says that Jesus created:
Powers;Principilities; things visible or invisible all things were created “THROUGH Him” – The Holy Spirit being active in Him.
The holy Spirit of God.The Principle Son of God – ALL [good] THINGS are attributed to the Principle SON – Just as ALL [good] things are attributed to the Master builder even though many others were involved
Do we not know that Satan was also involved – or else what use were the angels? bystanders who just “Shouted with joy”.
– And who are the “Stars” who “Sang together”
noone can answer me:
– Why?
– Fear??
– of What??
– Admission??
– of What??
– truth??
All things came into being through Him, and “APART FROM HIM NOTHING CAME INTO BEING THAT HAS COME INTO BEING. John 1:3WJ
Keith,JA is saying that “through” means that Christ did not Himself do the creating. But the Fther Himself says otherwise (Heb. 1:8-10).
Jack
JackI know, the word “dia” means both through and by.
The Arians say there is a difference but the reality is there is no difference according to the scritpures…
For of him, and “THROUGH HIM, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Rom 11:36
If they say the above scripture is the Father then it is true that the Father created everything through himself also.
If they say the above scripture is Jesus, then they have to admit that in context it is God that Paul is speaking of.
Paul uses the same language in 1 Cor 8:6 for Jesus.
Almost every major translation renders Rom 11:36 through.
Either way they lose!
WJ
JK……….Have you ever looked up the word used there for through. Check it out you might get enlightened. also while you are at it look up the word For. And Keep in mind GOD said He created it all alone and by himself. You can find that in Isaiah.
peace and love and my God help you to come out of that darkness on your brother………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2010,16:26) JK……….Have you ever looked up the word used there for through. Check it out you might get enlightened. also while you are at it look up the word For. And Keep in mind GOD said He created it all alone and by himself. You can find that in Isaiah. peace and love and my God help you to come out of that darkness on your brother………………………….gene
So test your logic Gene with Rom 11:36!WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2010,08:23) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 29 2010,16:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2010,08:03) Quote (JustAskin @ June 29 2010,15:27) PLEASE can someone tell me what Scriptures actually says that Jesus created:
Powers;Principilities; things visible or invisible all things were created “THROUGH Him” – The Holy Spirit being active in Him.
The holy Spirit of God.The Principle Son of God – ALL [good] THINGS are attributed to the Principle SON – Just as ALL [good] things are attributed to the Master builder even though many others were involved
Do we not know that Satan was also involved – or else what use were the angels? bystanders who just “Shouted with joy”.
– And who are the “Stars” who “Sang together”
noone can answer me:
– Why?
– Fear??
– of What??
– Admission??
– of What??
– truth??
All things came into being through Him, and “APART FROM HIM NOTHING CAME INTO BEING THAT HAS COME INTO BEING. John 1:3WJ
Keith,JA is saying that “through” means that Christ did not Himself do the creating. But the Fther Himself says otherwise (Heb. 1:8-10).
Jack
JackI know, the word “dia” means both through and by.
The Arians say there is a difference but the reality is there is no difference according to the scritpures…
For of him, and “THROUGH HIM, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Rom 11:36
If they say the above scripture is the Father then it is true that the Father created everything through himself also.
If they say the above scripture is Jesus, then they have to admit that in context it is God that Paul is speaking of.
Paul uses the same language in 1 Cor 8:6 for Jesus.
Almost every major translation renders Rom 11:36 through.
Either way they lose!
WJ
Keith,I marvel at these Arains here. They claim that the Father is their God but then deny the Father's own testimony that the Son created with “YOUR OWN HANDS” (Heb. 1:10).
The Father is not their God. If He was then they would not argue with Him.
Jack
WJ……….Start in verse 32 and it will tell you Who is being discussed there. JUST ANOTHER DIVERSION TO NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION AGAIN Brother.
peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2010,22:41) WJ……….Start in verse 32 and it will tell you Who is being discussed there. JUST ANOTHER DIVERSION TO NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION AGAIN Brother. peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
GeneThats exactly my point.
If you say that all things are through (dia) the Father and he is God, then you cannot say that because scriptures says all things are “through” (dia) Jesus that he is not God!
WJ
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