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Hi Dennison,
You said:
Quote Your next debate is going to be a Q and A. it shuold be structured at least, so that it can go smooth. and limited so that its not forever. Let's try it out right now, because I'm having a hard time even wading through the stuff you posted.
You said:
Quote Concering Jesus
Jesus is the one Revealing who God is not only in the gospel but in revelations as well.
You tried to steer that way because you think im trying to prove that Jesus is God which i am not. and when i say God, i mean his totality.
Jesus is not the Totality of God, but part of the Totality.
Since there is no mention of a “totality of God” in the scriptures, I have no clue as to what you are even trying to say here.Question: Do you think that Jesus is a part of the actual being of God Himself, or a completely separate entity from his God and our God, or something completly different than those two choices?
Please be clear and concise and avoid all the “astrophysical” conjecture you are so prone to.
mike
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 01 2010,06:21) Rev 1:8 (KJV)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.Why is it that in the KJV the word GOD is not presented but ONLY LORD?
Are you seeing some indiscrepencies in the KJV now Dennison?It's in the Greek, right?
mike
Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 01 2010,08:54) Please note that 'Throne' in Heaven is not a physical object. It is 'the Source of Power and Authority'. Therefore, 'thrones' is not an anomoly. It means 'powers and authorities'…'the emination of such from those vested with it from The Source'.
If this helps.
Hi JAudge,While I agree that it represents “authority”, no man can truthfully make the claim you do. None of us have any idea whether God physically sits on a “throne” or not.
I personally THINK that when Jesus says that God granted him to sit on His throne with Him, it means that God granted Jesus to rule in His authority for a time.
But like I said, who are we to claim that we KNOW things that we can only imagine about?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2010,09:19) Hi Dennison, You said:
Quote Your next debate is going to be a Q and A. it shuold be structured at least, so that it can go smooth. and limited so that its not forever. Let's try it out right now, because I'm having a hard time even wading through the stuff you posted.
You said:
Quote Concering Jesus
Jesus is the one Revealing who God is not only in the gospel but in revelations as well.
You tried to steer that way because you think im trying to prove that Jesus is God which i am not. and when i say God, i mean his totality.
Jesus is not the Totality of God, but part of the Totality.
Since there is no mention of a “totality of God” in the scriptures, I have no clue as to what you are even trying to say here.Question: Do you think that Jesus is a part of the actual being of God Himself, or a completely separate entity from his God and our God, or something completly different than those two choices?
Please be clear and concise and avoid all the “astrophysical” conjecture you are so prone to.
mike
Mike i dont want to start over AGAIN.
and such structures will not work with me.In simple term God totality, his full person, who he is fully.
comparing it to us, you know things about me, but you dont know my totality, compeletly who i am, every thought, and story and situation in my life.But this is besides the point.
Your question can be save for later because we are still on the Alpha and Omega, lets finish that.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2010,09:22) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 01 2010,06:21) Rev 1:8 (KJV)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.Why is it that in the KJV the word GOD is not presented but ONLY LORD?
Are you seeing some indiscrepencies in the KJV now Dennison?It's in the Greek, right?
mike
Mike i do not see God written anywhere in the Greek of 1:8
I do see Lord and Almighty but not God.Youngs literal Translation
I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming — the Almighty.'in the greek i see Kurios(κύριος) which is often translated for Lord in greek.
I dont see Theos (Θεός)
but after some research i see that some translations ommited God where instead it should say “being” or in this case some say the ONE or “Who is”.Most translations in greek dont even have where it says Beginning and the End.
But all agree the word Kurios is present, that is for sure.
Anyways,
Lets come to a Conclusion about the A and the O debate,
1:8 is debatable depending on greek text that have God and some that dont, but either way the Context speaks of Christ and Christ alone.
ch21- is allready proven to be the One who is seated on the Throne
and 22- I have shown you proof that its seperate from 21, and state its Christ Jesus.So since we have stayed away from 22 for the longest, should we go back to 22 and discuss it?
Or do you agree its the lamb speaking?Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 01 2010,17:44) Mike i do not see God written anywhere in the Greek of 1:8
I do see Lord and Almighty but not God.
GREEK
egw
eimi
to
alfa
kai
to
w
legei
kuriov…………lord
o ………………..the
yeov……………god
o
wn
kai
o
hn
kai
o
ercomenov
o
pantokratwrAnd here's some newer translations:
NET ©
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God – the one who is, and who was, and who is still to come – the All-Powerful!NIV Rev 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”NASB Rev 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”NLT Rev 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega––the beginning and the end,” says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come, the Almighty One.”MSG Rev 1:8
The Master declares, “I'm A to Z. I'm THE GOD WHO IS, THE GOD WHO WAS, AND THE GOD ABOUT TO ARRIVE. I'm the Sovereign-Strong.”BBE Rev 1:8
I am the First and the Last, says the Lord God who is and was and is to come, the Ruler of all.NRSV Rev 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.It seems once again, the KJV has used a newer Greek mss which DOES insert “Alpha and Omega” in 1:11, and omits “theos” in 1:8. I don't know what to tell ya man. There are a lot of Biblical scholars represented by these many translations I've just posted.
mike
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 01 2010,17:47) Anyways,
Lets come to a Conclusion about the A and the O debate,
1:8 is debatable depending on greek text that have God and some that dont, but either way the Context speaks of Christ and Christ alone.
ch21- is allready proven to be the One who is seated on the Throne
and 22- I have shown you proof that its seperate from 21, and state its Christ Jesus.So since we have stayed away from 22 for the longest, should we go back to 22 and discuss it?
Or do you agree its the lamb speaking?
Dennison:Quote 1:8 is debatable depending on greek text that have God and some that dont, but either way the Context speaks of Christ and Christ alone.
Sorry dude, but the “Lord God” gives it away. And even without the “God” part, it would be inconclusive.SF:
Quote ch21- is allready proven to be the One who is seated on the Throne
6He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.There's that pesky little “God” word again.
SF:
Quote and 22- I have shown you proof that its seperate from 21, and state its Christ Jesus.
I agree it can be considered as separate, although I hold that the angel took John FROM God's presence, and returned him TO God's presence, who then continued talking.Inconclusive.
I'm done with Rev for a while Dennison. And I'm done with the long exhausting posts too. If you want to move on to your next point, and do it in a Q and A style, okay. If not, then I'll just “see” ya around HN.
peace and love,
mikeI love it how its either your way or the highway method.
(cough, cough im exagerating)Agh.. From what i saw in the Greek, theos is no there as i said before.
Nor is it in Spanish that is also a text before the KJV,
in ch 21, I already to told you that i also believe its God, but heck i also told you the God of heaven also spoke, and that for sure is God. To make Distinctions, its the one seated on the Throne.
And we NEVER Got into 22. You can believe what you want about 22, because you CANT PROVE IT.
Now you want to change it… My gosh… Show me where it says the Angel took him back to Gods presence? where does it say that God was speaking? Its a herald so at all times in 22, only the Angel is speaking? who does John believe to return? Jesus genius.Its not because your not smart its because you dont want to understand, its that you compeletly want to reject the notion or the possibility that its Jesus in 22.
Como quieras mike!
Im not going to let you go so easily after calling me out.
So if you disagree and you want to move on thats fine.But we have compelelty “Clarfied” (which is the purpose of this thread) what i meant, and believe.
The Next point will be up to you
Quote 6. He is expressed as the one who never changes,
he is the same today, yesturday and forever.7. What is next to God? isnt God omnipresent!
So its either 6. Jesus Never changing
or 7. the Discusssion over OmnipresenceWe can box however you want, You want to do a Q and A, which wouldnt work, because we are talking about what I believe. but whatever, you brought it up, so make it work.
SimplyForgiven,Sep. wrote:[/quote]
SF:Quote Agh.. From what i saw in the Greek, theos is no there as i said before.
Dude! I just POSTED the Greek for you to see it. How can you say it's not there?
SF:
Quote in ch 21, I already to told you that i also believe its God, but heck i also told you the God of heaven also spoke, and that for sure is God. To make Distinctions, its the one seated on the Throne.
Agreed. 21 is God. 1:8 is also God, for it says “Lord God”. So that puts a lot of pressure on 22 also being God.SF:
Quote And we NEVER Got into 22. You can believe what you want about 22, because you CANT PROVE IT.
Nor can you PROVE it isn't God, so like I said, we'll just have to call it “inconclusive”.SF:
Quote Its not because your not smart its because you dont want to understand, its that you compeletly want to reject the notion or the possibility that its Jesus in 22.
I absolutely DO reject it. God is the “beginning and the end”, not Jesus. Why do YOU reject the possibility that it could be God talking? It doesn't specify it is Jesus until vs 16, right?SF:
Quote 6. He is expressed as the one who never changes,
he is the same today, yesturday and forever.
Jesus DOES have this said about him after he is raised from the dead. That is when his God Jehovah granted him immortality. But can this apply to Jesus the same way it applied when it was said of God Himself? No, because God is immutable, where Jesus hasn't always been. Jesus lived as spirit, then he lived as flesh, then he ceased to live, and now he lives eternally. Your points are all directed at making Jesus be on the same playing field as God……but without actually coming out an claiming that Jesus is God or a part of “the totality of God” or whatever. And I understand this point to be saying that if the similar thing was said of both God and Jesus, then maybe they're the same. So……..Question: Do you believe the “he remains the same” has the same effect when said of Jesus as it did when said of God? In other words, do you think that puts them on a “level playing field”, like they share the same “divinity” or whatever?
mike
mike
I know you just posted up YOUR VERSION of the greek,
but other greek text do not include such things.
Thats my point. Its inconclusive1:8 can be proven by the context, and the person who is the son of man talking between the candle sticks, which is Christ also.
we finally agree about 21.
22 is not inconclusive, for it was never discussed or refuted by you, I can prove it was Jesus, which i already have proven it many times within this debate, which i can just copy and paste again if you would like to review the evidence. The core is that John believe that Jesus was the one coming quickly.
Quote I absolutely DO reject it. God is the “beginning and the end”, not Jesus. Why do YOU reject the possibility that it could be God talking? It doesn't specify it is Jesus until vs 16, right?
I dont Reject any possibility, i take everything under consideration and revision, but the facts show it is Jesus speaking because in the manner and situation that the whole chapter is presented, The whole chapter is Christo-sentric,(did i spell that right haha) As in centered around Christ.
Even the last words of the bible are based in the Lord Jesus.
and im not sure if im correct about this, but i believe ch22, is the only reference that refers to Jesus, as the Lord Jesus.6.Jesus cannot Change
Quote Your points are all directed at making Jesus be on the same playing field as God……
Thats what im been trying to tell you mike, that im not trying to prove that Jesus is EXACTLY like God. Mike lets think about it this way, all i have stated is scriptural fact. I said that Jesus cannot change. that was the point, or my focus, that he CANNOT change, whether he is God or not, the point is he cannot change. Lets stick to that.Quote Question: Do you believe the “he remains the same” has the same effect when said of Jesus as it did when said of God? In other words, do you think that puts them on a “level playing field”, like they share the same “divinity” or whatever?
No, I think thats the closet concept we have of God.
In other words the Knowable GodHi Dennison,
SF:
Quote we finally agree about 21. Have I ever said it wasn't God who is the Alpha and Omega in 21? I say it is God every time.SF:
Quote No, I think thats the closet concept we have of God.
In other words the Knowable God
Please clarify. I can't see how that answers my question. I hold that God alone has been immutable forever. Jesus hasn't existed forever, so the fact that God has now made him immortal doesn't put him on any level playing field with God. That is my contention…….do you agree?mike
mike
ps, this isn't only for me to ask a question. You answer mine and ask one of your own in each post.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2010,08:50) Hi Dennison, SF:
Quote we finally agree about 21. Have I ever said it wasn't God who is the Alpha and Omega in 21? I say it is God every time.SF:
Quote No, I think thats the closet concept we have of God.
In other words the Knowable God
Please clarify. I can't see how that answers my question. I hold that God alone has been immutable forever. Jesus hasn't existed forever, so the fact that God has now made him immortal doesn't put him on any level playing field with God. That is my contention…….do you agree?mike
mike
ch21.No we disagreed when it came to specfics.
It doesnt matter anymore.
its done!
—
Well thats a bit of a paradox, because God changes his mind many times within the bible,(Niniveh,Kings death,etc) so yes i believe his character is immutable forever, but his choices are depended on his will.
If i understood you correctly that is.I disagree, everything that Jesus “is” and represents existed forever and is endless.
In what way did Jesus become immortal by what? i dont know if you believe in a heaven or hell, but in a since if you do, than we all are immortal, we just end up in differnt places, in others words to be with God or not.Lets be specfic, Ill be like david and Mention what i see as Gods “totality” as Elohim.
Jesus is not the Same as Elohim.
Jesus is God Revealed,
That means everything we want and need to know about God, is in Jesus.
In other words proportional.So than he is the Image of the Inivisible
the Knowable about the UnknowableAgain since im in a hurry today,
let me know if i made another frustrating post.And i dont have any questions because we are clarifying what i believe. Sooooo ill only have questions for clarifcation purposes.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 06 2010,10:32) Jesus is not the Same as Elohim.
Jesus is God Revealed,
That means everything we want and need to know about God, is in Jesus.
SF:Quote Jesus is not the Same as Elohim.
Very good young man. Elohim is God. You are correct in saying the Jesus is not Him.SF:
Quote Jesus is God Revealed,
No, Jesus revealed God.SF:
Quote That means everything we want and need to know about God, is in Jesus.
It means that some of what we are allowed to know about God for the time being has been explained by His Son, who knows Him inside and out.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 06 2010,10:35) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 06 2010,10:32) Jesus is not the Same as Elohim.
Jesus is God Revealed,
That means everything we want and need to know about God, is in Jesus.
SF:Quote Jesus is not the Same as Elohim.
Very good young man. Elohim is God. You are correct in saying the Jesus is not Him.SF:
Quote Jesus is God Revealed,
No, Jesus revealed God.SF:
Quote That means everything we want and need to know about God, is in Jesus.
It means that some of what we are allowed to know about God for the time being has been explained by His Son, who knows Him inside and out.mike
I didnt say that Jesus is NOT HIM,
Im saying they are not exactly the same.Jesus revealed the Father by Testimony, by LIVING it,
Therefore God revealed through him his Relationship as Father,
is the same as being God revealed.
or lets be specfic, the nature of the Father being revealed through the Son.Everything we need to know about God, or will ever know is demontrated by Jesus.
Jesus knows him inside out, becauase he is the living breathing testimony of him.
Our relationship with the Father started through Jesus Testimony as we gain rights to call him “abba” in the end through Jesus we get the Father.
Without Jesus, we can never reach the Father.
And this fact does not ever change.SF:
Quote I didnt say that Jesus is NOT HIM,
Im saying they are not exactly the same.
What does that mean? Jesus either IS God, or he is NOT God.SF:
Quote 1. Jesus revealed the Father by Testimony, by LIVING it, 2. Therefore God revealed through him his Relationship as Father,
3. is the same as being God revealed.
4. or lets be specfic, the nature of the Father being revealed through the Son.
1. Correct
2. Correct
3. Incorrect
4. CorrectIf your were trying to meet some girl, and I went over and told her how great you were, it would be me revealing you to her, but that doesn't mean that I AM YOU REVEALED.
SF:
Quote Everything we need to know about God, or will ever know is demontrated by Jesus.
Many things, but not “everything”. The OT gives many insights into who our God is before Jesus came to FURTHER make Him known. What Jesus taught + the OT is as much knowledge of God as we are allowed to know right now.SF:
Quote Our relationship with the Father started through Jesus Testimony
So Abraham never really had a relationship with God? Didn't God say Abraham was His friend? How about Moses? Didn't God tell Aaron and Miriam that he spoke “face to face” with Moses?SF:
Quote Without Jesus, we can never reach the Father.
And this fact does not ever change.
It wasn't until much later that Jesus was needed as a mediator BETWEEN us and God. Do you see that Dennison? Jesus isn't God, but someone who speaks TO HIM IN OUR BEHALF.Question: Do you agree that saying Jesus “is God revealed” does not really match up with the fact that Jesus (someone other than God) revealed God to us?
mike
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