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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 06 2010,08:06) Hi Dennison, What I meant was what is next about the Alpha and Omega thing?
Do you want to go scripture by scripture in Rev and see if Jesus is referred to as “God” anywhere? Here, I'll start.
Rev 1:1,
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him……
Jesus is one person, “God” is another. Don't you think the “God” mentioned here (who is obviously NOT Jesus) is the Father? If not, then who?
mike
Mike
I know what you meant,
And i do not want to do that and list all of revelations.i specficaly stated that i want to stick to ch21 or 22 in detail, or even ch 20, whatever is revelant within the story. because ch1, does not indicate who is speaking in the situation of ch22.
Why because in ch1, John was some where else, and it was clear that Jesus was speaking at that time.
in ch22, an angel is sent and what not, and we are trying to figure out who is claiming to be the A and O,
which i already told you my points in the last post.
I feel that we have overextended this topic already, and it just comes to the point whether you agree or not,
I made claims in my last post,
im waiting for your response,
Hi Dennison,
But your claims of “I believe it is Jesus……so there!” don't really mean anything.
If you could go through Rev and find one time that (for some odd reason) John doesn't refer to God as “God”, but instead uses that word “God” in referrence to “God's Son”, then it would be worth a closer look.
This was my earlier point about the other writings of John. If it is clear from his writings that he never considered Jesus “THE God”, then why on earth would you think he would called Jesus “God” or “Lord God' in Rev?
God is the Alpha and Omega. This much is clear from 21:7. But who is “God”? Is God's Son actually “God”? Did John think that?
You are the one going off the beaten path of scriptural truth to assert that “in this verse, it is Jesus that John calls 'God'”, so you must prove scripturally how you come to that conclusion, or else it is just your unsubstantiated opinion.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 07 2010,19:41) Hi Dennison, But your claims of “I believe it is Jesus……so there!” don't really mean anything.
If you could go through Rev and find one time that (for some odd reason) John doesn't refer to God as “God”, but instead uses that word “God” in referrence to “God's Son”, then it would be worth a closer look.
This was my earlier point about the other writings of John. If it is clear from his writings that he never considered Jesus “THE God”, then why on earth would you think he would called Jesus “God” or “Lord God' in Rev?
God is the Alpha and Omega. This much is clear from 21:7. But who is “God”? Is God's Son actually “God”? Did John think that?
You are the one going off the beaten path of scriptural truth to assert that “in this verse, it is Jesus that John calls 'God'”, so you must prove scripturally how you come to that conclusion, or else it is just your unsubstantiated opinion.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,This is where i get upset.
No my claim is not that i believe, that its clear and evident. I believe that God and Jesus are the same person, but specfically i have stated that it is Jesus speaking.
NO I AM NOT GOING THROUGH THE WHOLE REVELATIONS. thats a waste of Time.
this is besides the points.
It does not say that God is the alpha and the omega in 21:7, it says the one sitting on the throne.
Yes he did, i already clarifed that John does believe that it is Jesus due to what he said in his last statements in 22.
I did prove scriputreally that it is Jesus.
Just because you SAID that I didnt prove anything, that isnt enough to DISPROVE or REFUTE all the cliams i made previously.are you trying your AMNESIA tactic again?
i am not going to start over.
I made my points.
let me repost it again.
Quote Here is where i disagree.
Your stating God is the father.
Again it does not say which throne it came from.
Second, just because it says i will be his GOD doesnt prove that its God the father talking, aspeacialy if you believe that Jesus and God are one and the same.
Because your main statment is that God is the father mentioned in revelations 6, i do agree its God, but not the role of father that is mentioned, because father is not mentioned at all.
God again is a title, and the verse speaking of BEING a God to an individual, and the individual will become his son.
Again the risen Jesus Christ speaking here,
This is his testimony, about the Water of life, comparable to the manna, the bread of life, the one who will never let you thirst again nor hunger again.
So again, i will still state this is Jesus Christ in specific, because the God of heaven did speak in the verse before hand, and the one from the THRONE, which i of course believe is the same throne, speaks of his roles as the Alpha and the Omega, the begining and the end, your God, my God.
No other than the Lord Jesus, that is mentioned in the very next chapter.the verse before hand said this
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God
This is God referring to the people,
This is stating that this is God coming down himself to dwell with the people.
the next verses as the one you posted of verse 7, stating the one from the throne to be a God to an INDIVIDUAL and for him to be a son. The people are indentified by The individual who is identified as the one who overcomes and will inheriit all these things, and the one who sits from the throne will be HIS God.
Since anti trines clearly love distingushing and dividing what the Father says, and what Jesus says, than here is a clear example of two differnt “people” speaking.
its seems like we have switched places.
your trying to prove they are one and the same between verse 2 and 6,
and im saying there not.
how awkard.It is clear however that these are two differnt roles speaking and that this role is identified as Jesus Christ since rev 1, referrring to the first sets of scriptures that mention the alpha and the omega, but since you disagree about the source, which i find is unfair, it clearly shows that in ch22, that Jesus himself clarifys who he is, and what he is going to to do.
Who else do you know to say “it is done”? does scripture not state that after all is finished that Jesus made his enemies his foot stool that he will glorify God so that he maybe all in all.
Anyways i intend to stick to ch 21 and 22, which is revelant and the actual context of the matter, because you already still disagree with my arguements about rev1.
Your Quote
“We can take turns listing who God is in Rev. I can start with one of the many verses that clearly distinguish God as someone other than Jesus. And you can list one that you think calls Jesus “God”.”I Said: This statment contradicts your next statment
Your Quote
“To me, the fact that it is God talking in vs 6 is made clear by verse 7. “Im not argueing that Jesus is God, im stating that he is the one speaking saying that he is the ALPHA and the OMEGA. so that would be pointless.
My focus, of this whole current point, is to state that Jesus is the ALPHA and the OMEGA. And i have made several points about this,from ch21:6
1.One of the throne is speaking, God and the lamb
2. It is done
3. and that it matches the next chapter.
4. and that 21:6 is compeletly dependant on ch22 because it clarifies. proving 22, solves 21.
From 22:
1. jonn clarfies that Jesus is the one coming quickly,
2. Jesus gives testimony
3. clearly speaks of himself,
4. The angel came from Jesus,
5, the Father is never mentioned,
6. John clearly speaks of the Lord JesusI just dont find this debatable anymore,
its really nonsense to debate scripture anymore because its so clear. Either if your a Trinitarian, or an Antitrinatain, it doesnt matter, It clearly states that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, and it fits both criterias of both sides of the arugement.Which we all should know that i dont favor either side.
There shuoldnt be a problem no matter what you beleive christianity is, that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, and denying it is just nonsense.
Its very clear in scripture,
I believe that we have reached the very heart of the scriptures already and there is nothing left to be said,
ITs either you agree or continue to disagree, I did not make claims that Jesus is God when referring to the Alpha and the Omega, even though that is my main point of all, but my Focus is the A and O,
Jesus is the firstborn of the all creation (Alpha)
He is the End of all temporal flesh and evil in his return (Omega)It really comes down to this, so we can finally move on,
Do you agree that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega refered to scriptures in Revelations 21&22You SAid these things that im clearly refuting
Quote The One who is seated on the throne in Rev is Jehovah. The Lamb takes the scroll from that One, remember? So again, this is the Father speaking. Rev 22:13 NIV,
13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.This one causes lots of debate. The Father starts speaking directly to John in 21:3. Then an angel shows John New Jerusalem and speaks to him. Then the Father speaks some more, for there is nothing to imply it is anyone else speaking after the angel except the Father who was speaking before the angel. THEN, in 22:16, Jesus starts speaking again for it clearly says so. So again, it is the Father who says this.
You are stating its the Father.
Im stating your mistaken. Did this help with your amnesia?Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 08 2010,04:21) It does not say that God is the alpha and the omega in 21:7, it says the one sitting on the throne. Yes he did, i already clarifed that John does believe that it is Jesus due to what he said in his last statements in 22.
I did prove scriputreally that it is Jesus.
Just because you SAID that I didnt prove anything, that isnt enough to DISPROVE or REFUTE all the cliams i made previously.
Hello Brother Dennison,I seriously don't think that it's me personally you're angry with, rather the fact that I don't let you just claim something without scriptural proof. Sorry, but I never will.
I think you misspoke. Rev 21:6-7 says,
6He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
The one saying he is the Alpha and Omega in verse 6 is the same one saying “I will be his God” in verse 7.
Why would Jesus say, “I will be his God” when Jesus calls Jehovah “my God” 5 times in Rev? When did Jesus become the one referred to as “God”? That's my point here. Throughout Rev, Jesus is referred to as a different person than God, so why is he the “God” of 21:7?
You have clarified nothing yet. And when you become either honest enough to admit 21:6-7 refers to Jehovah, or become adept enough to prove otherwise, why would anyone just believe what you claim……only because you claim it?
I want to get to the “coming soon” part, but why move off of 21:6-7 when it is unresolved?
From my point of view, as someone who believes Jesus is NOT God, the passage seems clear that the “God” mentioned is the only God there is.
I understand that you believe Jesus IS God, but it will take more than your belief to get anyone to think the “God” in 21:7 refers to Jesus. Where is your supporting proof? Why is this particular mention of “God” referring to Jesus?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 07 2010,22:57) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 08 2010,04:21) It does not say that God is the alpha and the omega in 21:7, it says the one sitting on the throne. Yes he did, i already clarifed that John does believe that it is Jesus due to what he said in his last statements in 22.
I did prove scriputreally that it is Jesus.
Just because you SAID that I didnt prove anything, that isnt enough to DISPROVE or REFUTE all the cliams i made previously.
Hello Brother Dennison,I seriously don't think that it's me personally you're angry with, rather the fact that I don't let you just claim something without scriptural proof. Sorry, but I never will.
I think you misspoke. Rev 21:6-7 says,
6He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
The one saying he is the Alpha and Omega in verse 6 is the same one saying “I will be his God” in verse 7.
Why would Jesus say, “I will be his God” when Jesus calls Jehovah “my God” 5 times in Rev? When did Jesus become the one referred to as “God”? That's my point here. Throughout Rev, Jesus is referred to as a different person than God, so why is he the “God” of 21:7?
You have clarified nothing yet. And when you become either honest enough to admit 21:6-7 refers to Jehovah, or become adept enough to prove otherwise, why would anyone just believe what you claim……only because you claim it?
I want to get to the “coming soon” part, but why move off of 21:6-7 when it is unresolved?
From my point of view, as someone who believes Jesus is NOT God, the passage seems clear that the “God” mentioned is the only God there is.
I understand that you believe Jesus IS God, but it will take more than your belief to get anyone to think the “God” in 21:7 refers to Jesus. Where is your supporting proof? Why is this particular mention of “God” referring to Jesus?
peace and love,
mikeQuote I seriously don't think that it's me personally you're angry with, rather the fact that I don't let you just claim something without scriptural proof. Sorry, but I never will. No its you, =)
Quote I think you misspoke. Rev 21:6-7 says, 6He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
The one saying he is the Alpha and Omega in verse 6 is the same one saying “I will be his God” in verse 7.
No i didnt mis qoute anything, i was comparing it to the earliest verse that the “from heaven” spoke stating that GOD will dwell with his people. I was referring to teh context in other words.Quote Why would Jesus say, “I will be his God” when Jesus calls Jehovah “my God” 5 times in Rev? When did Jesus become the one referred to as “God”? That's my point here. Throughout Rev, Jesus is referred to as a different person than God, so why is he the “God” of 21:7?
THIS has nothing to do with the subject. I can also say why Does God call Jesus God in hebrews. At this point, this refute is a tangent.
I am stating that the one speaking is the ONE FROM THE THRONE, which THERE ARE TWO THRONES, that i know that they are the same. you have ignored this several times, and state things i didnt state.Quote You have clarified nothing yet. And when you become either honest enough to admit 21:6-7 refers to Jehovah, or become adept enough to prove otherwise, why would anyone just believe what you claim……only because you claim it?
I did, i said it refers the one from the throne, and it does not clarify from which throne, but i specfically state the one from heaven is diffreent from the one on the throne, since both thrones are not included in the detail of 21. so THEREFORE i stated 21 is dependannt on 22! which was the first mentioned.Quote I want to get to the “coming soon” part, but why move off of 21:6-7 when it is unresolved?
because it cannt be determined on 21 alone, because it does not clarify from which throne. which i repeated this again and again.Quote From my point of view, as someone who believes Jesus is NOT God, the passage seems clear that the “God” mentioned is the only God there is.
And i agree but it does not state from who. I strongly believe this includes Jesus. the TOTALITY OF GOD.Quote I understand that you believe Jesus IS God, but it will take more than your belief to get anyone to think the “God” in 21:7 refers to Jesus. Where is your supporting proof? Why is this particular mention of “God” referring to Jesus?
I STATED FACTS AND SCRIPTURES, AND ALL YOU DO TO REFUTE MY CLAIMS IS TO STATE THAT I MADE CLIAMS AND THAT NO WOULD SHOULD BELIEVE ME. that isnt debate, thats just nonsense.Its like i say something, show u proof, show u what i think and why i think it,
and the only thing you say is that,
thats not enough, oh thats wrong, just because i believe it so is not truth,
without giving me any explaniation of why you disagree.and as soon as you do, and i refute it, you go back to your amnesia.
I have shown you again and again.
THIS TOPIC IS NOT ABUOT JESUS BEING GOD, THIS IS IF JESUS IS WHETHER THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA REGARDING REVELATIONS.
which you continue to forget about again, and again, and again.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 08 2010,05:22) Its like i say something, show u proof, show u what i think and why i think it, and the only thing you say is that,
thats not enough, oh thats wrong, just because i believe it so is not truth,
without giving me any explaniation of why you disagree.and as soon as you do, and i refute it, you go back to your amnesia.
I have shown you again and again.
THIS TOPIC IS NOT ABUOT JESUS BEING GOD, THIS IS IF JESUS IS WHETHER THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA REGARDING REVELATIONS.
which you continue to forget about again, and again, and again.
Hi Dennison,And this right here is the crux of the problem. You say you show proof? Where? Where is Jesus ever called “God” in Rev, and where is your proof of that? And where in Rev is Jesus ever said to be “seated on the throne”? There is only one who is many times referred to as “the one seated on the throne”, and Jesus as “the Lamb” takes a scroll from that one's hand, so that one can't be Jesus. And it is “he who is seated on the throne” that speaks in 21:5-8, including the “I am the Alpha and Omega” part.
You see, I don't have amnesia, it's just that what you are calling “proof” is really just your assertion that there are two thrones in heaven and God sits on one of them and Jesus sits on the other, and both are called “God” for some reason. It's not in any stretch of the imagination “proof”.
The voice that came “from the throne” was most likely the voice of a herald, based on 19:5. But when John quotes the one saying he is the Alpha and Omega as also saying “I will be their God” (exactly as Jehovah says in many prophesies), it's pretty clear to me it was Jehovah. Not to mention “the one seated on the throne” is the one speaking.
Either show actual scriptural evidence that the “God” in 21:7 is Jesus, or say you can't. It's really that simple, man.
And if you can't, then we must go with the default understanding that “God” almost ALWAYS refers to Jehovah in the whole Bible.
Do you understand? I've got the default fallback on my side. You are the one trying to “overrule” the default, so YOU are the one that must show a preponderance of evidence to do that. You have not. In fact, you haven't shown ANY evidence at all.
The fact that “Jesus is called God in Rev” is the accused. The accused is innocent until PROVEN guilty.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2010,03:55) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 08 2010,05:22) Its like i say something, show u proof, show u what i think and why i think it, and the only thing you say is that,
thats not enough, oh thats wrong, just because i believe it so is not truth,
without giving me any explaniation of why you disagree.and as soon as you do, and i refute it, you go back to your amnesia.
I have shown you again and again.
THIS TOPIC IS NOT ABUOT JESUS BEING GOD, THIS IS IF JESUS IS WHETHER THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA REGARDING REVELATIONS.
which you continue to forget about again, and again, and again.
Hi Dennison,And this right here is the crux of the problem. You say you show proof? Where? Where is Jesus ever called “God” in Rev, and where is your proof of that? And where in Rev is Jesus ever said to be “seated on the throne”? There is only one who is many times referred to as “the one seated on the throne”, and Jesus as “the Lamb” takes a scroll from that one's hand, so that one can't be Jesus. And it is “he who is seated on the throne” that speaks in 21:5-8, including the “I am the Alpha and Omega” part.
You see, I don't have amnesia, it's just that what you are calling “proof” is really just your assertion that there are two thrones in heaven and God sits on one of them and Jesus sits on the other, and both are called “God” for some reason. It's not in any stretch of the imagination “proof”.
The voice that came “from the throne” was most likely the voice of a herald, based on 19:5. But when John quotes the one saying he is the Alpha and Omega as also saying “I will be their God” (exactly as Jehovah says in many prophesies), it's pretty clear to me it was Jehovah. Not to mention “the one seated on the throne” is the one speaking.
Either show actual scriptural evidence that the “God” in 21:7 is Jesus, or say you can't. It's really that simple, man.
And if you can't, then we must go with the default understanding that “God” almost ALWAYS refers to Jehovah in the whole Bible.
Do you understand? I've got the default fallback on my side. You are the one trying to “overrule” the default, so YOU are the one that must show a preponderance of evidence to do that. You have not. In fact, you haven't shown ANY evidence at all.
The fact that “Jesus is called God in Rev” is the accused. The accused is innocent until PROVEN guilty.
peace and love,
mike
lol you lost it,Your so old,
How many times did i say that im not debating whether Jesus is God or not.Yuo make me laugh.
Your whole arguement is pointless.
let me restate this again
according to my evidence that Jesus is the ALPHA AND THE OMEGA.
You crazy old man
Hi Dennison,
The evidence points to the one who is seated on the throne saying he is the Alpha and Omega. That one is God.
Is Jesus the one seated on the throne anywhere in Rev? No? Okay then, it is not Jesus who is the Alpha and Omega in 21:6. Do you agree?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2010,05:54) Hi Dennison, The evidence points to the one who is seated on the throne saying he is the Alpha and Omega. That one is God.
Is Jesus the one seated on the throne anywhere in Rev? No? Okay then, it is not Jesus who is the Alpha and Omega in 21:6. Do you agree?
mike
Disagree, there is a throne to the lamb who is Jesus.And to add, We know that in the previous verses that the GOD OF HEAVEN SPOKE, because Jersulem came OUT of God.
and he spoke there already.To be specfic, the Totality of who God is, is the one seated on the Throne which there is two the one of God and of the lamb, which by the way the river of life comes out of this one throne.
As i said this includes Jesus.
OH and since im TIRED of Starting Over!!!
I want to have a Judge to come intervene to set things straight.
So i asked Ja (Just askin) if he is intrested.IS that ok with you or not, or do you perfer another Judge?
*oh and if you do agree so the “Judge” can catch up, the Alpah and omega Point 5 debate started on page 3. and the source debate was left open since before that.
Hi Dennison,
Yes the Lamb will have his own throne in New Jerusalem. My question is where in Rev is the Lamb or Jesus said to be “the one seated on the throne”?
And when the first voice came “from the throne”, why do you think it was God, and not a herald? Did you even look at 19:5, where the same wording is used, but it is clear that it is not God talking?
You can bring JA in if he wants to……..it might help. And he really only needs to read the last page or two to know what's going on here.
peace and love,
mikeMike,
Im starting to think Man, how many times did John try to worship in angel, my goodness. and the angel had to stop him.
Quote Hi Dennison, Yes the Lamb will have his own throne in New Jerusalem. My question is where in Rev is the Lamb or Jesus said to be “the one seated on the throne”?
1. About the Lambs Throne.
Thats not the point, the point is that the throne is not presented to be Gods or the Lambs, to Conclude its either or would be a conjecture.
You said it was the Fathers, yet the Father is never mentioned.
However the Lamb, Jesus is presented and named.Quote And when the first voice came “from the throne”, why do you think it was God, and not a herald? Did you even look at 19:5, where the same wording is used, but it is clear that it is not God talking? The First voice does not specfically state it was from the Throne. Prove that. The first verse states that N Jersulem comes out of God in Heaven, and the one from Heaven spoke.
This was clearly God, that also mentioned that “GOD himself will dwell with his people”The Second voice that comes from the throne is not specfied of whom or which throne if there is any differences in the thrones, which i believe are one and the same.
19:5
5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and greatIts not the same wording. because the speaker is including himself to praise God.
Where as 21:1-3 does not.
How can you be clear its not God talking, if it says that it came out of the throne? How can you be so sure?
Do you have any proof?I do not want to get off subject, because i want a conclusion to these points.
That you either ignore and add other reasonings behind the thigns you wont answer for.
we went from 22, to 21 AND NOW 19.
this is riduculuos.
everything centers back to 22.To the Judge:
If i could make a COMPLAINT or request that this “debate” is about clarifying my points that started with Revch1. that ended with a disagreement of soruces, and than i moved on to 22, that was NEVER resolved, than later went into 21, and now 19.
Its come to a point where we should answer for 22, or just disagree.
Becaues this is not a formal debate, this is about clarifying my points,
I do not believe for a minute that just because mike “says” its not enough proof is enough “evidence” “refute” nor “Authority” to dismiss my cliams and warrents just because he doesnt think so.
Also note that Im tired of re-stating this, that my VERY last point, my most conclusive point, willl include Jesus being God after summarizing all my points togethor. BUT currently this has nothing to do with that at the moment. Mike has continued after every other post, to argue that Jesus is not God, and thats fine, but i am not argueing that at the moment, which makes his pointless refutation just darn right diversions from the actual points that are listed.
he says im not proving it, because he is right im not becaues im clarifiyng my points which is POINT 5 whether Jesus is the Alpha or the Omega, the beginning and the end NOT THAT JESUS IS GOD OR NOT OR WHATEVER. Im tired of starting over. in my last full rebuttal i stated that It has come to a point to either refute my claims about ch22 or to just disagree which he has every right to and move on. because i have another 24 points to clear up.Quote You can bring JA in if he wants to……..it might help. And he really only needs to read the last page or two to know what's going on here. peace and love,
mike
I asked already, he accepted “our” request.I hope that it will bring an conclusion and clear up any misunderstandings that we might have.
Because you never know sometimes people argue for so long, only to never noticed that they agreed the whole time.Much love,
Mike, Simplyforgiven,
It seems that both of you are at odds with the other, each posting their own understanding of whatever point is being debated.
You both started out with the intention of managing a 'single point' ata time, but quickly fall away.
It is hard to follow what either of you is posting as it seems you are both carrying on your own debate.the only 'united single point debate' being that the other doesn't understand the other, on that you agree.
It seems both of you 'like debating' so there will be no end this debate.
To judge… I can see nothing to judge unless you make clear posts.
Could you both take point #1 and debate it for, say, one page…without posting everything the other posted. It is just the two of you.is there really a need to paste the post from just above?
Single point with 'proofs'.
After one page, the judgement is made. This will mean you make succinct posts so you most likely to be judged positively.
Then start point #2.Otherwise the debates will be everlasting.
Please start from any point stating clearly what 'your' scriptural view is, not your opinion nor what someone else said, as 'what someone else said..outside of Scripture, cannot be queried, it is itself, that extra-Scriptural opinion.
Also, 'definitions', hard definitions, reliance on 'definitions' to make a point, is outlawed…noone ever agrees with 'hard definitions'…that is, two debaters will never agree by that, it is pointless(oops, forgot the fullstop!)
Hello JAudge,
What you say is fair and simple.
We are on point #5 from page 1 of this thread. In point #5, SF claims that Jesus is “the beginning and the end” in Rev. We have expanded this to include “the Alpha and Omega”, for SF thinks this is also Jesus.
So we are now trying to get to the bottom of who the “Alpha and Omega” is in Rev 22:13. To understand who is speaking in 22:13, you have to start at 21:5. Because IMO, that is when God starts talking to John, and He is the only one talking until John let's us know that Jesus started talking in 22:16.
SF refutes this, so I have been trying to go scripture by scripture with him to show my proof. He doesn't like this, and I think it's because he knows where it will lead. So he is being stubborn.
We are right now debating who said this in 21:5,
5He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
I have two thoughts here.
1. You can't start reading a book in the middle and expect to know who the “he” is when you read “He said…….” You have to at least start where that “he” started talking, so later, when it says “He said……”, you know who the “he” is.
2. 21:5 has to be God talking, for He is the only one in the whole book of Rev who is said to be “seated on the throne”.
And in some places, the Lamb is clearly identified as someone OTHER than the one who is “seated on the throne”, such as when the Lamb takes the scroll from the One who is “seated on the throne”.What do you say Dennison? Is 21:5 God talking? If not, why do you think that?
peace and love,
mikeps JA, thanks for helping, but please understand that for the purposes of this debate, we are not interested in your opinion about who the Alpha and Omega is, nor your raps or quips. Just solid, mature, unbiased and to-the-point enforcement when asked. For example, I would like this question answered. If he doesn't answer, I will pm you.
JAudge,
(im sorry i thought that was clever)The whole point i was asking for a judge, was for us NOT to start all over again… which…. either way is going to happen.
Fine,Mike,
I again will help with your AMNESIA!
You have stated several times that God is the Father that is seated on the Throne. With this i disagree. WE started with 22. not 21. but since you always want everything your way thats fine.1. reffering to 21 i have stated several times that IT is God, but if you want to be specfic, you could not state that it is only the father being referred SINCE he was not mention at all, and since the God of heaven spoke.
and again i state that this INCLUDES Jesus.To stick to scripture, all we know that the one who is seated on the throne is the one speaking. we do not know from which throne that is being referred to. Saying its the father is the conjecture. I say its Just the totality of who God is.
What do i say, of course i think God is talking, just not specfically the Father nor the Son, but included.
SF, Call me “Judge Dread[locks]” but “JAudge” is good too. (Ha – you should have called Edj to be judge then you could have called him (you got it already) “Judge Edj”!
Please can you both post a list of 5 points (or as many as you can manage) that point to who you each claim is on the Throne along with your 'Scriptural Proofs'.
The one with the most PLAUSIBLE list and Proofs will “Win” and the other will agree to accept the result (optional “Appeal on technicality” permitting)
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 11 2010,02:22) SF, Call me “Judge Dread[locks]” but “JAudge” is good too. (Ha – you should have called Edj to be judge then you could have called him (you got it already) “Judge Edj”! Please can you both post a list of 5 points (or as many as you can manage) that point to who you each claim is on the Throne along with your 'Scriptural Proofs'.
The one with the most PLAUSIBLE list and Proofs will “Win” and the other will agree to accept the result (optional “Appeal on technicality” permitting)
There is no winnning in these debates, Its about ending discrepancies, or our non understanding of eachother.
IT nots about chooosing who is winning or what not,
its about settling disputes by stating what is valid, or what arguement is not proof.
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