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Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 22 2010,09:03) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 19 2010,18:56) you want to talk about Rev 21. ok
quickly
1. verse 2 states that the new jersulem came from God out of heaven, verse 3 states that a voice of heaven spoke to him.
2. verse 5 states that a different person is speaking, the one who is speaking out of the throne, the water of life is the same fountian that is mentione in ch22. after its clarified that it is Jesus. same fountain, same declaration.
Yes, let's start with 21 to get it in context.Quote verse 2 states that the new jersulem came from God out of heaven, verse
Agreed.Quote verse 3 states that a voice of heaven spoke to him.
It says “a loud voice from the throne”. It is God's voice. Thus begins God talking directly to John.Quote verse 5 states that a different person is speaking, the one who is speaking out of the throne, It is the same person speaking.
I will bold God's words:
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
5He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”6He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.
What makes you think two people are talking here?
Why wuold you think it was the same?
Its distinctivly calls for two different persons.No, Jesus isn't THE God.
I already know the reason you'll say it has to be two people talking, but I want you to say it so I can scripturally refute it.
So………Why does it “distinctively” call for two different persons?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 25 2010,21:48) No, Jesus isn't THE God. I already know the reason you'll say it has to be two people talking, but I want you to say it so I can scripturally refute it.
So………Why does it “distinctively” call for two different persons?
mike
Besides the point.
The Point is that Jesus is the one referred to the Alpha and the Omega.John already said he believes that Jesus is the one returning,
so therefore the statement I come quickly refers to Jesus.So there fore Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega.
So your piont about God return and what not is invalid.
Either way im trying to prove distinctly that there is two being mention here.
Which again as i stated before, believing these two to be one and the same, wouldnt need this explaintion.Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega according to John. Even the last context proves that John referred to Jesus Christ alone, and To his Lord Jesus.
John is the writer, as you said. Distinctivly it doesnt matter, but since it matters to you, maybe the intent of the writer was to show how interchangably the voice of God, of the Throne, and Lord Jesus are all used togethor to represent one person.
Maybe the reason that John didnt distinctivly clarify when the speaker changed is because he believes its the same speaker.
Quote I will bold God's words:
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
5He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”6He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.
What makes you think two people are talking here?
Why would God speak in Third person?
Why doesnt he speak in First person,This clearly stating about God and than refers to him self in first person that he is the alpha and the omega.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 26 2010,14:25) Why would God speak in Third person?
Why doesnt he speak in First person,
There we go! The old first to third person thing! Ready?Matthew 24:30
“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.Is Jesus talking about someone other than himself here? He speaks just like his God does, doesn't he?
I can't answer your question as to WHY they do it. But we know they do, right?Jesus even switches between first and third person, just like his Father,
Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.So, you were saying…….?
Is there any scriptural or logical or grammatical reason that 21:3-6 could NOT be God talking the whole time?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2010,09:05) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 26 2010,14:25) Why would God speak in Third person?
Why doesnt he speak in First person,
There we go! The old first to third person thing! Ready?Matthew 24:30
“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.Is Jesus talking about someone other than himself here? He speaks just like his God does, doesn't he?
I can't answer your question as to WHY they do it. But we know they do, right?Jesus even switches between first and third person, just like his Father,
Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.So, you were saying…….?
Is there any scriptural or logical or grammatical reason that 21:3-6 could NOT be God talking the whole time?
mike
so your just going to ignore that john believes jesus is the one coming quickly ?Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 27 2010,15:32) so your just going to ignore that john believes jesus is the one coming quickly ?
Absolutely not! I will not ignore your interpretation of that scripture when we get there. In fact, I've been through this one before and have an answer ready and waiting.But first, are you satisfied that it at least could be God talking in the first part of 21? Can we move forward?
mike
Besides, Jesus never sits on the throne in Rev. He stands in, or “in the midst” of the throne as the Lamb, but takes the scroll from the One seated ON the throne.
Do you agree this is all God talking? Or at least the part starting with verse 5? God is the only one ever spoken of as seated on the throne in Rev, and that's who John says is speaking in 5 and 6, right?
mike
my original concern is ch. 22
I do not agree it is only God speaking. because it is jesus. clearly john believed it was him from the start, and in the statements of the alpha and the omega verse. since I believe they are the same I would agree that God is speaking. but when it comes to jesus he calks himself by his own testimony that he is A and O.
no mater if you believe God is jesus or not, it is clear that john belived the one speaking is jesus bc he calls for his returnHi Dennison,
First, there are many OT scriptures where Jehovah says he will come and dwell among us. There is at least one that says His reward will be with Him. So Jesus has never been the ONLY one who will be coming.
But why do you move on? Are you satisfied that 21:5 and 6 are the Father speaking? If so, say so, and we'll move forward to 22. You have to understand it is the Father speaking in 21 to be able to understand it is still Him speaking in 22 up until verse 16, where John clearly indicates that it is now Jesus speaking.
Are you satisfied? If not, why?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 29 2010,07:54) Hi Dennison, First, there are many OT scriptures where Jehovah says he will come and dwell among us. There is at least one that says His reward will be with Him. So Jesus has never been the ONLY one who will be coming.
But why do you move on? Are you satisfied that 21:5 and 6 are the Father speaking? If so, say so, and we'll move forward to 22. You have to understand it is the Father speaking in 21 to be able to understand it is still Him speaking in 22 up until verse 16, where John clearly indicates that it is now Jesus speaking.
Are you satisfied? If not, why?
mike
IT all started with chapter 22.The OT has nothing to do with it,
its about what John believed right,So John clearly believed that it was Jesus returning.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 01 2010,16:23) IT all started with chapter 22. The OT has nothing to do with it,
its about what John believed right,So John clearly believed that it was Jesus returning.
But I thought we were first trying to find out who was the Alpha and Omega in 21:6, right?The NETBible renders it like this,
21:5 And the one seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new!” Then 9 he said to me, “Write it down, 10 because these words are reliable 11 and true.” 21:6 He also said to me, “It is done! 12 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end….
The Greek doesn't actually say “He also said to me”, but the scholars at NETBible seem to think it is still the one seated on the throne that is talking.
So, are we in agreement the it is God that is the Alpha and Omega in verse 6?
If you agree, we have answered one of your points and can move forward to the next.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 01 2010,23:14) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 01 2010,16:23) IT all started with chapter 22. The OT has nothing to do with it,
its about what John believed right,So John clearly believed that it was Jesus returning.
But I thought we were first trying to find out who was the Alpha and Omega in 21:6, right?The NETBible renders it like this,
21:5 And the one seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new!” Then 9 he said to me, “Write it down, 10 because these words are reliable 11 and true.” 21:6 He also said to me, “It is done! 12 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end….
The Greek doesn't actually say “He also said to me”, but the scholars at NETBible seem to think it is still the one seated on the throne that is talking.
So, are we in agreement the it is God that is the Alpha and Omega in verse 6?
If you agree, we have answered one of your points and can move forward to the next.
mike
This is what happens when i take a break from HN,
I forget what is going on.Let me make this clear.
I clearly believe that Whether its God or Jesus its used interchangably.But if we want to be specfic.
WE can see this in the scripture that clearly that when jersulem came from heaven, it came out OF God from heaven.than the one FROM heaven spoke. This is God of course.
The one from the THRONE, which is not specfic from which throne whether its from Gods or the lambs (unless of course its the same throne)
Since it does not specify which throne it is, than we cannot say its from the Throne of God nor the Lambs but say its either or, (unless of course they are the same fyi)
The same person from this thrown spoke the very same things since chapter one asking, or demanding John to write down what he is saying.
Also in the very next chapter this person also restates the very same phrases from 21:6Therefore,
22:1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.There are TWO thrones or of course the same throne depends on what you believe.
Either way, To say that 21:6 is God out of Heaven, it cannot be, but from the one seated on the throne.
Which throne, it does not say.So i disagree yet agree depending on what you believe.
I do believe its God speaking, but since i believe them to be one and the same, we disagree based on your terms.
IF we are being specfic i disagree its God the Father speaking but rather Jesus claiming to be the Alpha and the Omega according to context.Now revelations 22, which is the focus of everything, clearly states that the one speaking is Jesus according to Jesus on testimony and through Johns reference to him in him coming quickly.
The father is not mentioned at all nor jehovah in this same since. So we can only state that Jesus is the one speaking because in ch22 and if he is speaking in ch 22, than it also means that 21:6 goes along with it.HMPH!
TO REMIND YOU,
we are still on point number FIVE, CINCO!
and by the way since we are eventually going to talk abotu omnipresence in this debate, lets not discuss it on the other thread that i responded by the way, because than we will only be restateing the same points. get what im saying? might as well finish this one out.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 02 2010,19:34) than the one FROM heaven spoke. This is God of course. The one from the THRONE, which is not specfic from which throne whether its from Gods or the lambs (unless of course its the same throne)
6He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.Okay, how far do you want to go with this?
We can take turns listing who God is in Rev. I can start with one of the many verses that clearly distinguish God as someone other than Jesus. And you can list one that you think calls Jesus “God”.
To me, the fact that it is God talking in vs 6 is made clear by verse 7.
What next?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2010,08:58) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 02 2010,19:34) than the one FROM heaven spoke. This is God of course. The one from the THRONE, which is not specfic from which throne whether its from Gods or the lambs (unless of course its the same throne)
6He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.Okay, how far do you want to go with this?
We can take turns listing who God is in Rev. I can start with one of the many verses that clearly distinguish God as someone other than Jesus. And you can list one that you think calls Jesus “God”.
To me, the fact that it is God talking in vs 6 is made clear by verse 7.
What next?
mike
Here is where i disagree.
Your stating God is the father.
Again it does not say which throne it came from.
Second, just because it says i will be his GOD doesnt prove that its God the father talking, aspeacialy if you believe that Jesus and God are one and the same.
Because your main statment is that God is the father mentioned in revelations 6, i do agree its God, but not the role of father that is mentioned, because father is not mentioned at all.
God again is a title, and the verse speaking of BEING a God to an individual, and the individual will become his son.
Again the risen Jesus Christ speaking here,
This is his testimony, about the Water of life, comparable to the manna, the bread of life, the one who will never let you thirst again nor hunger again.
So again, i will still state this is Jesus Christ in specific, because the God of heaven did speak in the verse before hand, and the one from the THRONE, which i of course believe is the same throne, speaks of his roles as the Alpha and the Omega, the begining and the end, your God, my God.
No other than the Lord Jesus, that is mentioned in the very next chapter.the verse before hand said this
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God
This is God referring to the people,
This is stating that this is God coming down himself to dwell with the people.
the next verses as the one you posted of verse 7, stating the one from the throne to be a God to an INDIVIDUAL and for him to be a son. The people are indentified by The individual who is identified as the one who overcomes and will inheriit all these things, and the one who sits from the throne will be HIS God.
Since anti trines clearly love distingushing and dividing what the Father says, and what Jesus says, than here is a clear example of two differnt “people” speaking.
its seems like we have switched places.
your trying to prove they are one and the same between verse 2 and 6,
and im saying there not.
how awkard.It is clear however that these are two differnt roles speaking and that this role is identified as Jesus Christ since rev 1, referrring to the first sets of scriptures that mention the alpha and the omega, but since you disagree about the source, which i find is unfair, it clearly shows that in ch22, that Jesus himself clarifys who he is, and what he is going to to do.
Who else do you know to say “it is done”? does scripture not state that after all is finished that Jesus made his enemies his foot stool that he will glorify God so that he maybe all in all.
Anyways i intend to stick to ch 21 and 22, which is revelant and the actual context of the matter, because you already still disagree with my arguements about rev1.Quote We can take turns listing who God is in Rev. I can start with one of the many verses that clearly distinguish God as someone other than Jesus. And you can list one that you think calls Jesus “God”.
This statment contradicts your next statmentQuote
To me, the fact that it is God talking in vs 6 is made clear by verse 7.
Im not argueing that Jesus is God, im stating that he is the one speaking saying that he is the ALPHA and the OMEGA. so that would be pointless.
My focus, of this whole current point, is to state that Jesus is the ALPHA and the OMEGA. And i have made several points about this,from ch21:6
1.One of the throne is speaking, God and the lamb
2. It is done
3. and that it matches the next chapter.
4. and that 21:6 is compeletly dependant on ch22 because it clarifies. proving 22, solves 21.
From 22:
1. jonn clarfies that Jesus is the one coming quickly,
2. Jesus gives testimony
3. clearly speaks of himself,
4. The angel came from Jesus,
5, the Father is never mentioned,
6. John clearly speaks of the Lord JesusI just dont find this debatable anymore,
its really nonsense to debate scripture anymore because its so clear. Either if your a Trinitarian, or an Antitrinatain, it doesnt matter, It clearly states that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, and it fits both criterias of both sides of the arugement.Which we all should know that i dont favor either side.
There shuoldnt be a problem no matter what you beleive christianity is, that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, and denying it is just nonsense.
Its very clear in scripture,
I believe that we have reached the very heart of the scriptures already and there is nothing left to be said,
ITs either you agree or continue to disagree, I did not make claims that Jesus is God when referring to the Alpha and the Omega, even though that is my main point of all, but my Focus is the A and O,
Jesus is the firstborn of the all creation (Alpha)
He is the End of all temporal flesh and evil in his return (Omega)It really comes down to this, so we can finally move on,
Do you agree that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega refered to scriptures in Revelations 21&22
?Quote What next?
6. He is expressed as the one who never changes,
he is the same today, yesturday and forever.7. What is next to God? isnt God omnipresent!
Basically whats next is whatever you disagree with.
Hi Dennison,
What I meant was what is next about the Alpha and Omega thing?
Do you want to go scripture by scripture in Rev and see if Jesus is referred to as “God” anywhere? Here, I'll start.
Rev 1:1,
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him……
Jesus is one person, “God” is another. Don't you think the “God” mentioned here (who is obviously NOT Jesus) is the Father? If not, then who?
mike
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