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Quote This is the tactic that your heroes WJ and KJ use all the time against me. I have no heros. Just brothers
Hi Dennison,
From Wikipedia,
In the Book of Revelation, it reads “I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.”[2]. The first part of this phrase (“I am the Alpha and Omega”) is first found in Chapter 1 verse 8, and is found in every manuscript of Revelation that has 1v8. Several later manuscripts repeat “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11 too, but it does not receive support here from most of the oldest manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in some modern translations. Scholar Robert Young stated, with regards to “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11, that the “oldest MSS. omit” it.
What say you now? Am I frustrating you even more?
What's your next “proof” scripture?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2010,22:53) Hi Dennison, From Wikipedia,
In the Book of Revelation, it reads “I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.”[2]. The first part of this phrase (“I am the Alpha and Omega”) is first found in Chapter 1 verse 8, and is found in every manuscript of Revelation that has 1v8. Several later manuscripts repeat “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11 too, but it does not receive support here from most of the oldest manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in some modern translations. Scholar Robert Young stated, with regards to “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11, that the “oldest MSS. omit” it.
What say you now? Am I frustrating you even more?
What's your next “proof” scripture?
mike
I read that too brother.read the whole thing.
That doesnt prove nor disprove anything.
and its Wiki. your really going to hold that as biblical proof?
anyways.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 11 2010,04:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2010,22:53) Hi Dennison, From Wikipedia,
In the Book of Revelation, it reads “I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.”[2]. The first part of this phrase (“I am the Alpha and Omega”) is first found in Chapter 1 verse 8, and is found in every manuscript of Revelation that has 1v8. Several later manuscripts repeat “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11 too, but it does not receive support here from most of the oldest manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in some modern translations. Scholar Robert Young stated, with regards to “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11, that the “oldest MSS. omit” it.
What say you now? Am I frustrating you even more?
What's your next “proof” scripture?
mike
I read that too brother.read the whole thing.
That doesnt prove nor disprove anything.
and its Wiki. your really going to hold that as biblical proof?
anyways.
Hmmm…….you had already read that and didn't think it would shed any light on our current discussion?
To me, the fact that the oldest mss DON'T have Alpha and Omega combined with the fact that even trinitarian sponsored newer translations omit it speaks volumes. But at the very least, the info is “spurious” and therefore should not be used as ABSOLUTE PROOF of what you are proving.Surely you have other scriptures to support you?
Hit me with #2 scripture.
mike
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 11 2010,15:56) Mike, so you have no thoughts nor comments to make about the translations i offered?
Why, yes I do – glad you asked.
My initial thought is that it is more likely that a trinitarian swayed scribe or translator inserted Alpha and Omega than it is that someone omitted it. Otherwise, why would MOST ancient mss not have those words in them?
Every English translation that I'm aware of in the history of the world has ever increasingly biased their mss toward the trinitarian viewpoint except the NWT. Just like the verse added to 1 John 5:7 about the three in heaven that testify. I don't know if you are aware of the controversy involved with this verse, but all scholars now agree that it was added at a later time and all omit it from their translations. My point is that it wouldn't be the first time trinitarians tampered with God's Word. They are still doing it with this “God the One and Only” crap in place of “only begotten god”.
It seems your Alpha and Omega is running the same course here as 1 John 5:7. YLT and KJV were written centuries ago. The newer translations omit these words and I assume it is for good reason. Older mss are continually being unearthed and maybe KJV and YLT did not have access to the many older mss that didn't have those words.
What say you?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 11 2010,11:22) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 11 2010,15:56) Mike, so you have no thoughts nor comments to make about the translations i offered?
Why, yes I do – glad you asked. My initial thought is that it is more likely that a trinitarian swayed scribe or translator inserted Alpha and Omega than it is that someone omitted it. Otherwise, why would MOST ancient mss not have those words in them?
Every English translation that I'm aware of in the history of the world has ever increasingly biased their mss toward the trinitarian viewpoint except the NWT. Just like the verse added to 1 John 5:7 about the three in heaven that testify. I don't know if you are aware of the controversy involved with this verse, but all scholars now agree that it was added at a later time and all omit it from their translations. My point is that it wouldn't be the first time trinitarians tampered with God's Word. They are still doing it with this “God the One and Only” crap in place of “only begotten god”.
It seems your Alpha and Omega is running the same course here as 1 John 5:7. YLT and KJV were written centuries ago. The newer translations omit these words and I assume it is for good reason. Older mss are continually being unearthed and maybe KJV and YLT did not have access to the many older mss that didn't have those words.
What say you?
peace and love,
mike
I think its irrevelant,
Why do i say this,
i do believe it matters, but since we will never know,is there any point of arugeing it?
So its either we both hold it to be true, or both just lay it aside.
I think what matters is what you and I think at this moment.
Your right, i know its a controversy, and i even read lol books thats said it wasnt omited,
and others say that it was,
and than i pick up my greek and hebrew bible and there it goes,
I read it in different languages for example spanish, and there it goes tooo…
so Idk what to tell you. Am I the writer of revelatoins? was i born of such a time?
should i believe what most scholars think? NO WAY JOSE!
you know why mike?
because they are men, just like the ones who translated it, they are no better nor no more reasonable then others.
Therefore let every man be a liar, and let the word be true.I think this would take us to ask God what he thinks about that. Thats my only conclusive thoughts in this mattter is to ask God. He will know for sure.
Dont put your faith and belief based on what the majority or minority believe.
I rather be alone and ridculed, alone with God, than to be part of a system of set beliefs.
Anyways since i found like a bunch of more translations in english that also have those agreements with the Alpha and omega.
I do believe we should continue to the next verse,
However do not believe for a second that im dropping the point nor that it was proven wrong, its our of your hands as well as mine.
I would continue to verse 17 and 18 as context, but i was looking at some sources and it seems they have the same controversy.
unless you agree with 17 and 18 as they are than we can discuss those, if not lets skip to
Rev22:13Fair enough, my friend. While I believe with every fiber of my being that the trinitarian NIV would have leaped at the chance to include those words if there was a snowball's chance they were legit, I agree we have no actual proof at the moment. As they dig up more and more mss, the truth may be revealed.
And I'm sorry for you because YOU were the one trying to prove something from a scripture you can no longer use. Really, I know that stinks for you.
As far as 17 and 18, bring them up if you want. I personally don't believe that ANY mention of Alpha and Omega are Jesus, but if you feel froggy – jump!
On to 22:13. I'm going by memory here, but in the beginning of chapter 21, someone is talking to John. Then an angel takes John to measure New Jerusalem. When he gets back, someone is talking to John again. THEN, in verse 16 (I believe), Jesus is identified as talking.
Here's my thoughts. God was the first one talking. Then “someone” was talking. Then Jesus is identified as talking. If Jesus was the one talking when John came back with the angel, why not make a point of saying that the talker switched from God to Jesus at that point? Why wait a few verses before letting us know that God was done talking and Jesus had already started?
I'm tired. See what you can do with that, brother.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2010,09:20) Fair enough, my friend. While I believe with every fiber of my being that the trinitarian NIV would have leaped at the chance to include those words if there was a snowball's chance they were legit, I agree we have no actual proof at the moment. As they dig up more and more mss, the truth may be revealed. And I'm sorry for you because YOU were the one trying to prove something from a scripture you can no longer use. Really, I know that stinks for you.
As far as 17 and 18, bring them up if you want. I personally don't believe that ANY mention of Alpha and Omega are Jesus, but if you feel froggy – jump!
On to 22:13. I'm going by memory here, but in the beginning of chapter 21, someone is talking to John. Then an angel takes John to measure New Jerusalem. When he gets back, someone is talking to John again. THEN, in verse 16 (I believe), Jesus is identified as talking.
Here's my thoughts. God was the first one talking. Then “someone” was talking. Then Jesus is identified as talking. If Jesus was the one talking when John came back with the angel, why not make a point of saying that the talker switched from God to Jesus at that point? Why wait a few verses before letting us know that God was done talking and Jesus had already started?
I'm tired. See what you can do with that, brother.
peace and love,
mike
unless it didnt matter and they are the same personill well make a full response later.
sorry tired day.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 13 2010,16:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2010,09:20) Fair enough, my friend. While I believe with every fiber of my being that the trinitarian NIV would have leaped at the chance to include those words if there was a snowball's chance they were legit, I agree we have no actual proof at the moment. As they dig up more and more mss, the truth may be revealed. And I'm sorry for you because YOU were the one trying to prove something from a scripture you can no longer use. Really, I know that stinks for you.
As far as 17 and 18, bring them up if you want. I personally don't believe that ANY mention of Alpha and Omega are Jesus, but if you feel froggy – jump!
On to 22:13. I'm going by memory here, but in the beginning of chapter 21, someone is talking to John. Then an angel takes John to measure New Jerusalem. When he gets back, someone is talking to John again. THEN, in verse 16 (I believe), Jesus is identified as talking.
Here's my thoughts. God was the first one talking. Then “someone” was talking. Then Jesus is identified as talking. If Jesus was the one talking when John came back with the angel, why not make a point of saying that the talker switched from God to Jesus at that point? Why wait a few verses before letting us know that God was done talking and Jesus had already started?
I'm tired. See what you can do with that, brother.
peace and love,
mike
unless it didnt matter and they are the same personill well make a full response later.
sorry tired day.
But even trinitarians don't think they are the same person. Take your time brother.
mike
Lets reference back to the Bible and Find out.
Revelation 22
1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets :sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7:Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12:And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13:I am Alpha and Omega,: the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16:I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come,Lord Jesus.
21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.Hi Mike,
Remeber i never cliamed to be a Trinitarian. I perfer not to be called that. But your simply forgiven
Now i believe to answer this question of whom is speaking in revelations 22, in reference to the Alpha and the Omega, we have to go back to scripture and solve the puzzle.
From verse 1-4
Speaks of the Tree of life as well as the Throne of God and of the Lamb, and the conditions of the nations.
verse 5: this lord is the light, no more sun nor candles.
verse 6: The Lord God sent the angel.
verse 7-11: Someone is coming quickly and the angle has showed him these things, as John intended to worship the Angel, when the angel told him to stop and worship God. and the conditions of holy and filthy.
Verse 12- coming quickly again to give rewardsverse 13He is the Alpha and the Omega. which means first and last.
14-15: conditions
16: JESUS SENT THE ANGEL.
17: drink of the water of life, Spirit and bride.
18-19: conditions of adding to the word
20: JOHN TESTIFIES THAT JESUS IS THE ONE COMING.
21: that the grace of the LORD JESUS may be with us all.
——————————————
My analysis,>It is clear from scripture that the Lord God is the same Lord Jesus.
>THE FATHER is not mentioned at all. The role of father is not mentioned at all in this chapter.
>God is clearly mentioned.
> The Lord God, who is the Lord Jesus testifies that he has sent the angel
> The one who is coming quickly is the Lord Jesus
> The one speaking the whole time is Jesus because he sent the angel, and he is the one coming quickly
>Its amazing how Paul focused in every letter to mention the father and the son, yet in the very last letter from John, the father wasnt mentioned, nor the role of son, nor anythign else but God, and the very last verse state the Lord Jesus. imagine how the very last verse of the bible only mentions the Lord Jesus.
>the term God is used as a title and not a name. Its not specfic to the “Father” but used refering to Jesus.In Conclusion,
It is clear that since verse 7 John states that there is one coming quickly four times.
verse 13 is literaly between that.
and After the verse 12 that states the reward that Jesus will give according too (John 3:35 – John 13:3)and than comes the A and O verse.
It is clear that Jesus testifies and speaks as the ALPHA and the OMEGA.
Hi Dennison,
Sorry it took so long for this response. Btw, I didn't call YOU a trinitarian. I contrasted you from them by saying even THEY (as opposed to YOU) don't think the Father and Son are the same PERSON.
I can honestly see how you come to your conclusion. But you must start with chapter 21, not 22. 21 has God talking to John, then the angel takes John on a journey, then God talks some more, THEN Jesus is identified as the person talking so as to let the reader know it is no longer God who is speaking.
1. The “I come quickly” is also said by God himself in the OT. God says many times that he will rule among mankind. He says Jesus will be your ruler, and “I will be your God”. He says, “I am coming and my reward will be with me.” He says He will dwell among us. So that wording doesn't mean it has to be Jesus, for they BOTH will be coming quickly.
2. Jesus calls the Father “my God” 5 times in Rev. There is no precedent set by which Jesus is ever the one referred to as “God”.
3. Look at John's other letters. Doesn't he always clearly distinguish between Jesus and God? Why, all of a sudden, would he start calling Jesus “God” without explaining this change in status to us?
4. Jesus is the Lamb OF GOD and the Word OF GOD and the beginning of the creation OF GOD. Aren't those enough to distiguish him as someone other than God? Many times, John mentions God AND the Lamb. Why the AND if they are both God?
5. David was considered righteous in God's eyes, as well as John the Baptist and many other men in the Bible. But to say David is righteous and God is righteous is not to say that David is equal to God or that he IS God. So even IF Jesus was called “the beginning”, would be proof that he is God or equal to Him?
Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to show where John, or ANY NT writer for that matter, claimed that Jesus was God Himself. Then we might have a precedent to apply to Rev. But unless you can do that, I feel it is just reaching to say John just all of a sudden realized that Jesus was God and didn't tell us. And he could have, for his gospel was written AFTER he wrote his Revelation.
Conclusion:
Since the words could be applied to either God or Jesus using only the context of Rev, we must apply them to God only based on the fact that Jesus was never said to be God Himself or equal to God and it would be irresponsible to start applying “God titles” to Jesus based only on some hard to understand wording in Rev.
And I know you are going to say, “I'm not arguing that Jesus is God yet, only that he is “THE beginning”. My points still stand. He is NOT God, therefore he does not receive titles that belong ONLY to his God, IMO. That includes “THE beginning and the end.”
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2010,23:31) Hi Dennison, Sorry it took so long for this response. Btw, I didn't call YOU a trinitarian. I contrasted you from them by saying even THEY (as opposed to YOU) don't think the Father and Son are the same PERSON.
I can honestly see how you come to your conclusion. But you must start with chapter 21, not 22. 21 has God talking to John, then the angel takes John on a journey, then God talks some more, THEN Jesus is identified as the person talking so as to let the reader know it is no longer God who is speaking.
1. The “I come quickly” is also said by God himself in the OT. God says many times that he will rule among mankind. He says Jesus will be your ruler, and “I will be your God”. He says, “I am coming and my reward will be with me.” He says He will dwell among us. So that wording doesn't mean it has to be Jesus, for they BOTH will be coming quickly.
2. Jesus calls the Father “my God” 5 times in Rev. There is no precedent set by which Jesus is ever the one referred to as “God”.
3. Look at John's other letters. Doesn't he always clearly distinguish between Jesus and God? Why, all of a sudden, would he start calling Jesus “God” without explaining this change in status to us?
4. Jesus is the Lamb OF GOD and the Word OF GOD and the beginning of the creation OF GOD. Aren't those enough to distiguish him as someone other than God? Many times, John mentions God AND the Lamb. Why the AND if they are both God?
5. David was considered righteous in God's eyes, as well as John the Baptist and many other men in the Bible. But to say David is righteous and God is righteous is not to say that David is equal to God or that he IS God. So even IF Jesus was called “the beginning”, would be proof that he is God or equal to Him?
Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to show where John, or ANY NT writer for that matter, claimed that Jesus was God Himself. Then we might have a precedent to apply to Rev. But unless you can do that, I feel it is just reaching to say John just all of a sudden realized that Jesus was God and didn't tell us. And he could have, for his gospel was written AFTER he wrote his Revelation.
Conclusion:
Since the words could be applied to either God or Jesus using only the context of Rev, we must apply them to God only based on the fact that Jesus was never said to be God Himself or equal to God and it would be irresponsible to start applying “God titles” to Jesus based only on some hard to understand wording in Rev.
And I know you are going to say, “I'm not arguing that Jesus is God yet, only that he is “THE beginning”. My points still stand. He is NOT God, therefore he does not receive titles that belong ONLY to his God, IMO. That includes “THE beginning and the end.”
mike
Mike,I get you but you do not understand me. Everything i stated was fact. and you even agreed to most of it.
I cannot debate like this because we do not stay on topic.
I have presented MANY points that you asked to clarify,you called me out on the points, and again, i have seen these 5 points mentioned again and again and again.
and i could respond to that right now, but your points do not respond to the clarification about the
ALPHA AND OMEGA POINT.I Find it unfair that i have to only go by what you perfer to talk post abuot, or gettting straight to the heart of the subject when you dont even understand why i think what i think.
you said point by point.
And your right my exact response is going to say that im not even there yet.
but how can you say that you want to understand me, when you cut me off and decide to ignore me, and have your mind set already.
examine your self.
you have your mind set on your ideals,
the diffrence is that im actually really open about this.Im starting little by little with you.
The long response that i made about Jesus being the Alpha and the Omega,
this is your only attack which is a fallacy,
Quote He is NOT God, therefore he does not receive titles that belong ONLY to his God, IMO. That includes “THE beginning and the end.”
this is an invalid point in debate, because proving Jesus is not God doesnt prove that in chapter 22 that the subject (the topic of the thread) Alpha and the omega isnt refered to Jesus.and above all that, do you really think that would convince me? like really?
it sounds like childs play,Remember when you asked me to let you know when your being diversional.
ok mike, your being diversional and its annoying.
if you really want to learn togethor,and you still not convinced yet than lets go back to chapter 21 and 20 or whatever, to actualy learn whats going on.
we are clarifying MY POINTS remember.
the ones you ACCUSED OF BEING FALSE REMEMBER?
did you forget?
is the amnesia setttling in?im not like the others.
dont forget it old man.what say you.
you agree that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega in Rev.22 or not?
I don't know what you want me to say to you.
I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT AGREE THAT JESUS IS REFERRED TO AS THE ALPHA AND OMEGA ANYWHERE IN REVELATION!
I gave you my understanding that God was talking in chapter 21 and continued talking all the way up until it was made clear that the speaker is now Jesus in 22:16. That is how I understand it. So for you to give an almost “word by word” analysis of the beginning of chapter 22 and assert that those things were said by Jesus is just wrong IMO.
I gave you a chance to prove by precedent set in John's other writings that he called Jesus “God” or “Lord God”. But he never did, so why would he start now? And remember, Rev was written by John BEFORE the gospel of John. Why didn't John clear up the fact that Jesus is really “THE beginning” or “God” in his gospel?
If I am not understanding a certain point you want answered, then ask it directly. I have told you over and over I HATE the long posts. If you want to take apart Rev 22, then post it scripture by scripture. Would you like me to dismantle your argument point by point? Okay……your first Rev 22 point:
Quote From verse 1-4
Speaks of the Tree of life as well as the Throne of God and of the Lamb, and the conditions of the nations.Right there it is clear as day that the Lamb is someone OTHER THAN GOD. Why would John later call the Lamb “God” then?
Would you like me to continue in this way? Point by point? I will be happy to.
mike
You said:
Quote verse 5: this lord is the light, no more sun nor candles. Verse 1 and 3 distinguish between the Lamb (who we know is Jesus) and God (who must be someone other than Jesus). So when 5 says the “Lord God” will be their light, why would you assume John now thinks the Lamb IS the God he just distinguished him from?
mike
You said:
Quote verse 6: The Lord God sent the angel. Rev 1 says,
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
God is the first and ultimate source of John's revelation. And ALL angels belong to God first, even though they are ministering spirits to us and Christ. It is said that some of us will command angels. So because it is said that Christ sent “his angel”, it doesn't mean that the angel no longer belongs to God. EVERYTHING belongs to God.
Also, the very first verse distinguishes between Christ and God very clearly. That in itself should be enough for you to realize that every time John says “God” or “Lord God”, it is talking about that God who is distinguished as someone other than Christ in the very first verse.
mike
See Dennison,
This is the kind of debate I want. You make ONE point or scripture or obsevation, then I either refute it or agree with it, then we move on to the next.
Look how much posting it took me to answer only 3 of your 13 points. And that doesn't even include your analysis and conclusion. I just don't have that kind of time on my hands brother. If I answered them all in one post, it would take me hours, and you even more to respond back to my answers, and so on.
PLEASE, I'm begging you! One at a time. What I would like to see is your answer to my answer of the very first point you made about the Tree of Life and the Lamb and God. Then we can debate that ONE point back and forth until it is resolved.
But, if you prefer, I will keep answering one or two of your individual points each day until I've done them all. But you will have to wait until I'm done to refute my answers because I won't answer one point and refute your rebuttal of my answer to a different point at the same time.
Just take it one at a time please. Do you have anything to say to my rebuttal of your first point about the Tree of Life?
mike
Mike are you serious,
now your saying my posts are to long?i stuck to one point.
each time.
i have stuck to the topic each time,
and you keep on going about how Jesus is not God and i dont even refute it but go back to the topic.
i tried to keep everything short.I have realized i need to stop trying to please you and continue however i want.
and by the way most of the posting was because you keep on getting off topic.This is what im going to do.
The only way for me to prove that Jesus is the ALPHA and the omega is prove that he is speaking.
and if i have to go back a chapter i will!
First note, it doesnt say the Father at all.
The tree of life, is irrevelant!! because the subject is WHO IS SPEAKING IN CH.22 FATHER OR JESUS
even though the roles arnt even mentioned anymore, its important who is being claimed being the ALPHA AND THE OMEGA.so your REBUTTLE ABOUT THE TREE OF LIFE IS OFF TOPIC.
because the first verses dont even matter, its about who is speaking!!!! what johns intent abuot the thrones dont matter!all my focus is to prove that its was Jesus who was speaking in ch.22 and i will IGNORE THE REST!
i dont care why John didnt mention it before and what not!
the questions IS WHETHER JESUS IS THE REFERED INDIVIDUAL IN REV.22 WHEN THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA IS MENTIONED.The context of Rev. 22! UNREFUTABLE EVIDENCE OF WHO IS SPEAKING!
1. 16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Testimony that Jesus himself clarified that he is speaking!
2.20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
The one who testifiys is JESUS!
3. underverse 20 it specfically states that JOHN believed that JESUS is the one coming.
4. Jesus is not mentioned as the son but as LORD.
5. God is a title, not a name, yet LORD was mentioned.you want to talk about Rev 21. ok
quickly
1. verse 2 states that the new jersulem came from God out of heaven, verse 3 states that a voice of heaven spoke to him.
2. verse 5 states that a different person is speaking, the one who is speaking out of the throne, the water of life is the same fountian that is mentione in ch22. after its clarified that it is Jesus. same fountain, same declaration.there fore the one speaking of heaven is God, and the one on the throne is Jesus.
Therefore no matter how you want to look at this, JESUS is the one speaking.
there for Jesus is the ALPHA AND THE OMEGA!
you know whats not fair, is that you strongly believe everyone must stick to the way you want to debate, and its ok for you to mention nonsense like, “well they arnt the same thrones” and “John wrote revelations first, why didnt he mention that in the gospel”,
is that proof? are you serious, your whole refute against my points that are on topic, that are pertaining to one subject, is this? that pitiful.
it upsets me.
your evidence agaisnt my ANAYLSIS of scripture is INTENT of the writer? really?
REALLY?
ARE YOU SERIOUS?
im going to add this to the debate errors.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 19 2010,18:56) you want to talk about Rev 21. ok
quickly
1. verse 2 states that the new jersulem came from God out of heaven, verse 3 states that a voice of heaven spoke to him.
2. verse 5 states that a different person is speaking, the one who is speaking out of the throne, the water of life is the same fountian that is mentione in ch22. after its clarified that it is Jesus. same fountain, same declaration.
Yes, let's start with 21 to get it in context.Quote verse 2 states that the new jersulem came from God out of heaven, verse
Agreed.Quote verse 3 states that a voice of heaven spoke to him.
It says “a loud voice from the throne”. It is God's voice. Thus begins God talking directly to John.Quote verse 5 states that a different person is speaking, the one who is speaking out of the throne, It is the same person speaking.
I will bold God's words:
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
5He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”6He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.
What makes you think two people are talking here?
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