MIKE, TERRA, ED

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 27 2012,11:14)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 27 2012,17:10) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 27 2012,08:28) ed thank you ;so now we can go somewere from here; so how did the true righteous fathers knew it was not according to the truth of God I mean the scriptures or letters ; Hi Pierre, I'm not really sure what you are asking; could you use different words? Do you want to know what the church criteria was in considering canon? God bless Ed J ed how could a true christian believer make the distinction between the truth of God and men's wisdom

Hi Pierre,

That, my friend, is a tough question!
Discernment is from the HolySpirit within.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[journey42]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 27 2012,03:55)

Quote (journey42 @ Aug. 27 2012,01:20) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 26 2012,17:17) J42 Rev 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. Rev 11:5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. Rev 11:6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. Rev 11:7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. Rev 11:8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Rev 11:9 For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. Rev 11:10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth. Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Rev 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on. Rev 11:13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. what is this mean??? Pierre This is about the 2 prophets God will send to Israel.  God does not mention who they are, but they have the same powers as Elijah and Moses.   Elijah didn't die, but was taken up, and And the Devil fought with the Archangel Michael, over the body of Moses. Why did Satan want Moses dead body so bad? These two prophets will prophesy in Israel 30 days short of 3 1/2 years.  When they are killed, God will bring them back to life, and then the 7 Trump blows (Coming) j42 this is pure invention of the mind, this is not what scriptures are saying is it this is what you are thinking it should be right

Pierre,

Maybe you can explain it then, what those scriptures mean.

[journey42]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 27 2012,04:33)

journey, It seems to me that you are trying to use Biblical prophecy to support the ms found in Antioch over the one found in Egypt. It seems you are equating these two ms with the two prophets which were to come.

Mike,

Firstly, let me explain this.
Pierre, brought these scriptures up, not me.
and he wanted me to explain those verses re the two witnesses, so I did as he asked, and answered knowing it was totally off topic.

[journey42]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 27 2012,04:33)

journey, It seems to me that you are trying to use Biblical prophecy to support the ms found in Antioch over the one found in Egypt. It seems you are equating these two ms with the two prophets which were to come. But there are MANY mss – THOUSANDS of them – which have been located in several different places, so I don't think your analogy works. Also, don't forget that BOTH of those prophets were killed – not just one of them. And finally, this all boils down to:  Which ms is the closest to the time of the originals?  Because that is the ms that is most likely to be the closest translation of the originals. Do you agree with this thought?  YES or NO?

Mike

Quote

Also, don't forget that BOTH of those prophets were killed – not just one of them.

Mike, I am very aware of that?

[journey42]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 27 2012,04:33)

And finally, this all boils down to:  Which ms is the closest to the time of the originals?  Because that is the ms that is most likely to be the closest translation of the originals. Do you agree with this thought?  YES or NO?

Mike

You guys keep going to the world for your answers. The answer is in the scriptures.

[journey42]

Acts 11:19   Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

Acts 11:22   Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.

[journey42]

Acts 11:26   And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

[journey42]

Acts 11:27   And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.

[journey42]

Deuteronomy 6:12   Then beware lest thou forget the LORD, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

[Ed J]

Hi Georgie,

Is this your way of discrediting the 'Codex Sinaiticvs'.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Devolution]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,04:01)

Quote (Devolution @ Aug. 24 2012,20:23) Ok Mike, let me rephrase the question for you. Do you believe that God preserved His written word TEXTUALLY? Hi Devo, YES, if by “preserved”, you mean “still available to us today”.  If you mean “unaltered and unchanged”, the I don't know for sure how close the oldest mss we have found are to the original words written. I DO know that virtually every English version of the scriptures contains alterations and changes from the oldest mss we have found to date.

Thanks for your honesty Mike.

I however, do believe that God kept His written word preserved accurately.

We both know that the 5000+ manuscripts make up the majority text – Byzantine line from which the KJV is sourced (Antiochian line) unlike the Alexandrian line..
And this line, the Byzantine/Antiochian line, is in harmony textually from every available manuscript that has been found from the many nations they were in.

However the Alexandrian line, from which all the modern translations for the past 150 years are sourced, not only disagree with the Byzantine line TEXTUALLY, but also disagree with each other TEXTUALLY.

Mike, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Alexandrian line was taught or found anywhere else besides within Egypt. Don't you think there is a reason why the early Christians REJECTED this line outright?

[journey42]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 27 2012,17:14)

Hi Georgie, Is this your way of discrediting the 'Codex Sinaiticvs'. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

It's from Alexandria, Egypt. Yes I refuse it.
According to the scriptures, Egypt is never reflected in a positive light. Physical and spiritual.

[journey42]

Pierre

Revelation 11:8   And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Concentrate on what God is calling Israel here.  Sodom and Egypt.  These two witnesses will be killed in the same place where our Lord was crucified.  Don't focus on the two witnesses for now, instead focus on where our Lord was crucified, and what God called that place – God is telling us something here.

Egypt was the first head – first empire
You know who is the real king of all these empires, starting from the first (Satan)
You know the people worshipped their false gods, and practised their strange beliefs in Egypt.
The Hebrews were slaves in Egypt,
God freed them,
but most of them complained and wanted to go back there,
and God cut those ones off, during the 40 years,
same as today,
If we follow the Word, we will be taken out of captivity,
but many want to go back to Egypt,
and trust in what they hold there,
false beliefs, and lies
and also
a set of bible manuscripts, claimed to be the oldest
but it's only the paper that is the oldest. Not the text itself.
The Pharaoh, did not want to let his captives go back then,
and the king of Egypt now is doing the same. (Satan,)
that's why God calls Israel Sodom and Egypt,
but it's not just Israel, it's the whole world who follow,
so Sodom and Egypt is Babylon.
And Israel serve the King of Babylon today also, because thy rejected Christ, so they reject God. So they are of Babylon now,
Babylon killed our Lord,
Babylon will also kill the true followers, and the 2 prophets.
And the whole world is still captive,
So christians should not accept anything that comes out of there (Egypt), for all is contaminated, Spiritually.
That's why God said, Come out of her my people. (Babylon), (Egypt, Sodom)
He is not talking to the whole world, he is talking to those who
believe on his name, his children
the ones that have been snared and taken captive by their own choice.
Because the day comes soon when he will cut many off.

[Ed J]

Hi Georgie,

Do you believe the 'Codex Sinaiticvs' is more corrupted than the 'Codex Vaticanvs'?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[journey42]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 28 2012,02:08)

Hi Georgie, Do you believe the 'Codex Sinaiticvs' is more corrupted than the 'Codex Vaticanvs'? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

EDJ

Both are from Alexandria,
therefore both are corrupt.

[Ed J]

Quote (journey42 @ Aug. 28 2012,02:35)

EDJ Both are from Alexandria

Hi Georgie,

I did not know that  –  can you provide proof
that the 'Codex Vaticanvs' was also from Alexandria?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Devolution @ Aug. 27 2012,06:36)

Mike, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Alexandrian line      was taught or found anywhere else besides within Egypt. Don't you think there is a reason why the early Christians REJECTED this line outright?

Devo,

OLDER is better in this case.  I'll ask you what I asked Ed before (which he never answered):

If the 2nd century ms doesn't have the Johanine Comma, and the 12th century ms does have it, which one of the following has likely happened:

A.  Someone went back in time and ERASED the Comma from the 2nd century ms?

B.  Some scribe later ADDED the Comma to a ms which did not contain those words originally?

All green text is from Wikipedia:
Matthew 24:36 which reads in the Alexandrian text “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only”; whereas the Byzantine text omits the phrase “nor the Son”, thereby avoiding the implication that Jesus lacked full divine foreknowledge.

So I ask you:
If the older mss had “nor the Son”, and the more recent mss omit that phrase, what has happened:

A.  Someone went back in time and ADDED the phrase to the older mss?

B.  Scribes later OMITTED that phrase for Trinitarian reasons?

I find your and journey's implication that “those mss are found in Egypt, therefore they have to be evil” absurd and preposterous.

First of all:
Egypt, almost alone, offers optimal climatic conditions favoring preservation of ancient manuscripts while, on the other hand, the papyri used in the east (Asia Minor and Greece) would not have survived due to the unfavourable climatic conditions. So, it is not surprising that if we were to find ancient Biblical manuscripts, they would come mostly from the Alexandrian geographical area and not from the Byzantine geographical area.

Secondly:
Most textual critics of the New Testament favor the Alexandrian text-type as the closest representative of the autographs for many reasons. One reason is that Alexandrian manuscripts are the oldest we have found, and some of the earliest church fathers used readings found in the Alexandrian text. Another is that the Alexandrian readings are adjudged more often to be the ones that can best explain the origin of all the variant readings found in other text-types.

Do you know what that last part means?

……….the Alexandrian text-type is witnessed by around 30 surviving manuscripts — by no means all of which are associated with Egypt, although that area is where Alexandrian witnesses are most prevalent.

You claim that the Byzantine is textually in harmony, but Wikipedia says:
The Byzantine text-type (also called Majority Text) is one of several text-types used in textual criticism to describe the textual character of Greek New Testament manuscripts. It is the form found in the largest number of surviving manuscripts, though not in the oldest.  

While considerably varying, it also underlies the Textus Receptus Greek text used for most Reformation-era translations of the New Testament into vernacular languages.

Here is some more info about the Byzantine:
Also there are a number of readings where the Byzantine text displays variation between synoptic passages, that is not found in either the Western or Alexandrian texts — as in the rendering into Greek of the Aramaic last words of Jesus, which are reported in the Byzantine text as “Eloi, Eloi..” in Mark 15:34, but as “Eli, Eli..” in Matthew 27:46.

And finally:
Up until the 9th century, Greek texts were written entirely in upper case letters, referred to as Uncials. During the 9th and 10th centuries, the new lower-case writing hand of Minuscules came gradually to replace the older style. Most Greek Uncial manuscripts were recopied in this period and their parchment leaves typically scraped clean for re-use. Consequently, surviving Greek New Testament manuscripts from before the 9th century are relatively rare; but nine — over half of the total that survive — witness a more or less pure Alexandrian text. These include the oldest near-complete manuscripts of the New Testament Codex Vaticanus Graecus 1209 and Codex Sinaiticus (believed to date from the early 4th century CE).

A number of substantial papyrus manuscripts of portions of the New Testament survive from earlier still, and those that can be ascribed a text-type — such as 66 and 75 from the early 3rd century — also tend to witness to the Alexandrian text.

Devo, I know this is a long post, and I personally have no interest in becoming an expert on ancient Greek mss.  But I respectfully submit that that the OLDER the ms, the CLOSER to the original it is.

Why doesn't this concept make as much sense to you and journey and Ed? Perhaps your KJV bias is clouding your judgement?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 27 2012,09:40)

Quote (journey42 @ Aug. 28 2012,02:35) EDJ Both are from Alexandria Hi Georgie, I did not know that  –  can you provide proof that the 'Codex Vaticanvs' was also from Alexandria?

I don't know that it is “FROM” Alexandria, but according to the info I just posted for Wakeup, it is an Alexandrian text. (Second to the last green paragraph in my post.)

[journey42]

Quote

I did not know that  –  can you provide proof that the 'Codex Vaticanvs' was also from Alexandria?

EDJ
I may not agree with these sites, but most of the ones I looked up, refers to the Codex Vaticanvs as being from Alexandria.

Codex Vaticanus B
“and is usually taken as the best representative of the ancient “Alexandrian” form of the New Testament text.”

http://www.studytoanswer.net/bibleversions/gnostic.html
“……..Hoskier noted over 3,000 points in the Gospels alone at which Sinaiticus and Vaticanus (the two primary Alexandrian witnesses)…”

[terraricca]

Quote (Devolution @ Aug. 28 2012,06:36)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,04:01) Quote (Devolution @ Aug. 24 2012,20:23) Ok Mike, let me rephrase the question for you. Do you believe that God preserved His written word TEXTUALLY? Hi Devo, YES, if by “preserved”, you mean “still available to us today”.  If you mean “unaltered and unchanged”, the I don't know for sure how close the oldest mss we have found are to the original words written. I DO know that virtually every English version of the scriptures contains alterations and changes from the oldest mss we have found to date. Thanks for your honesty Mike. I however, do believe that God kept His written word preserved accurately. We both know that the 5000+ manuscripts make up the majority text – Byzantine line from which the KJV is sourced (Antiochian line) unlike the Alexandrian line.. And this line, the Byzantine/Antiochian line, is in harmony textually from every available manuscript that has been found from the many nations they were in. However the Alexandrian line, from which all the modern translations for the past 150 years are sourced, not only disagree with the Byzantine line TEXTUALLY, but also disagree with each other TEXTUALLY. Mike, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Alexandrian line      was taught or found anywhere else besides within Egypt. Don't you think there is a reason why the early Christians REJECTED this line outright?

Devo

How do you know that it is not today here

How would you be able to distinct between the true and the false version???

What rule would you see fit to use and do your expertise recognition so that no mistake can pass your examination .???

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