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Quote But SCRIPTURE says:
Acts 2:22
“Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.”Answer ONE SIMPLE QUESTION to get to the TRUTH of the matter:
Marlin, did JESUS do miracles, signs and wonders on earth?
Or did GOD do miracles, signs and wonders on earth THROUGH His Holy Servant Jesus Christ?
WHICH CHOICE DO THE SCRIPTURES TEACH?
If you are able to answer this question DIRECTLY and HONESTLY, it will be a new beginning for you – one without the blinders that Satan has put over your eyes.
Brother Mike,
I uses to be as your are now, blind. Now those ones like I was, call me blind. But now I know where I stand, for God has opened my eyes.
JOHN 14:9 † Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
JOHN 14:14 † If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.If I have a son, he is part of me and part of my wife.
God had a son, who was creative cell of God, who came through a woman (incubator).JOHN 17:11 † And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 † While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.So Jesus has the same name as His Father.
Jesus the flesh man was born the SON of GOD, with the Spirit of God.
He was never another god or angel.
He was the Word spoken from God, the LOGOS. A thought expressed.God Bless
bro. MarlinQuote So Jehovah is our ONE and ONLY Saviour. SINCE JEHOVAH IS MAN'S ONLY SAVIOR, HOW COULD JESUS BECOME SAVIOR?
Hmmmm…………….
Nehemiah 9:27 KJV
Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.One question:
Were these SAVIORS that Jehovah GAVE to Israel also Jehovah Himself? Or was Nehemiah speaking about the judges of old, who were OTHER SAVIORS that Jehovah GAVE?
Brother Mike,
ISAIAH 43:11 † I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
There is but one Saviour and that is GOD.
There were men that God used, but it was always God as the Saviour.Could any of these men say “If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father”.
Jesus was and is the EXPRESSED image of GOD.God Bless
bro MarlinQuote And finally, your claim that I just “change” the scriptures until they fit my personal desires is baseless, as you haven't addressed my points. For example, what does it mean to you that the extra words of 1 John 5:7 aren't found in the text of any Greek manuscript until the 14th century? What does it mean to you that all the more recent TRINITARIAN translations DON'T have those words, because the translators KNEW those words were added much later, and that they were never a part of John's scriptural words? WHAT DO THOSE FACTS MEAN TO YOU, MARLIN? See, you can't just make those FACTS disappear by claiming I'M changing the scriptures to suit my purpose. It is an asinine claim, because MY points are based on the FACTS of the matter, while it is YOUR points that are based on your own personal wishes.
Brother Mike,
The sad thing is that instead of correcting your doctrine, you have to find ways to discredit God's Word. Your evidence is no different then two scientists talking about global warming or cooling. They both use facts to prove they are right.
For here we see a Trail of Evidence
But during this same time, we find mention of 1 John 5:7, from about 200 AD through the 1500s. Here is a useful timeline of references to this verse:
200 AD Tertullian quoted the verse in his Apology, Against Praxeas
250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, “And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: “And the three are One” in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in “Three Witnesses in Heaven”
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in “The Three Heavenly Witnesses” [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]
550 AD Old Latin ms r has it
550 AD The “Speculum” has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]
750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it
800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
1000s AD miniscule 635 has it
1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin
1300s AD miniscule 629 has it
157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse
1500 AD ms 61 has the verse
Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.Does this prove the trinitarian dogma of three persons in one God, of course not. It is just a misunderstanding of scripture that people accept without question.
Quote The same goes with John 8:58. Why didn't you bother to address the FACTS I numbered 1 through 4 and listed for you? Tell me: What does it mean for Jesus to have said, “Before Abraham came into being, Jehovah!” ? What did Jesus mean by that statement, Marlin? Surely he didn't mean “I AM JEHOVAH!”, He meant exactly that.
John 14:9 ……..Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; ….God Bless
bro. MarlinHi Marlin,
In my last post to you, I asked these questions: When will you refute my points? Or is it better for you to keep bringing up more “proofs” that Jesus is God Almighty, while completely ignoring the fact that I've scripturally shot down all your previous points thus far?
It appears that you will continue to do the latter, as you have NOT refuted my previous points, and are now bringing up yet ANOTHER “Jesus is God proof text”. But that's okay, because I've not only heard them all before, I've scripturally refuted them all before. So keep bringing up new ones, and I'll keep refuting them – all the while taking notice that you are unable to refute my rebuttals.
Quote (Marlin1 @ Oct. 30 2012,22:47) JOHN 14:9 † Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Do you claim that the Son IS the Father, Marlin? If not, that scripture doesn't help you at all, does it?Quote (Marlin1 @ Oct. 30 2012,22:47) JOHN 17:11 † And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 † While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.So Jesus has the same name as His Father.
Actually, that passage proves just the OPPOSITE, Marlin. The olde English words “thine” and “thy” refer to someone else, not to the one saying the words. They mean “YOUR name”. Notice that Jesus did not say “OUR name”, did he?Remember that, Marlin, because it is important for you to know that Jesus, while speaking to his God and Father, said “YOUR name”, not “OUR name”.
Quote (Marlin1 @ Oct. 30 2012,23:10) Quote Nehemiah 9:27 KJV
Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.Were these SAVIORS that Jehovah GAVE to Israel also Jehovah Himself? Or was Nehemiah speaking about the judges of old, who were OTHER SAVIORS that Jehovah GAVE?
Brother Mike,
ISAIAH 43:11 † I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
There is but one Saviour and that is GOD.
There were men that God used, but it was always God as the Saviour.
Was it ONLY men that God used, Marlin? Or did God also send His spiritual sons as saviors to His people? (Remember the angel that killed 185,000 Assyrians in one night?)So tell me why these judges that God used as saviors are not God Himself, but God's holy servant Jesus, who He also used as a savior, IS God Himself?
Can you see your bias showing? We can.
Quote God has orchestrated the proof of his existence encoded into the “AKJV Bible”(74).
It is called “Gematria”(74) and I have a entire thread on this phenomenon.A=1 G(7) + R(18) + A(1) + C(3) + E(5) = 34
B=2
C=3
…
X=24
Y=25
Z=26God bless
Ed JBrother Ed,
That is interesting, but it is like comparing apples to oranges.
You number 34 is a code cipher for a word or words.
That is far different then God's number of grace.
David picked up 5 smooth stones to fight Goliath, not 34.
The Holy Anointing Oil was pure and composed of 5 parts
Jesus has 5 letters.
Faith has 5 letters.
Grace has 5 letters.Because of God's Grace,
Elijah makes five appearings:
one time is Elijah;
as Elisha;
as John;
Seventh Angel Messenger (Rev 10:7);
over with Moses to the Jews.
The Perfect number
The perfect prophet
The perfect messenger, stern, bold.God's numbers 3 = perfection
5 = Grace
7 = Completion
12 = Worship
3 x 7 = 21 = Perfect Completion
40 = Temped
50 = JubileeGod Bless
bro. MarlinQuote (Marlin1 @ Oct. 31 2012,17:54) The sad thing is that instead of correcting your doctrine, you have to find ways to discredit God's Word.
I have never done such a thing. And I have just gone through this long list in support of the “Johanine Comma”, as it is commonly called, with a member here named Devolution. I won't hit each claim on the list, but I'll hit enough of them to show you that this list is purposely slanted to give the false impression that these extra words in 1 John 5:7 have been there for a long time.Quote (Marlin1 @ Oct. 31 2012,17:54) 200 AD Tertullian quoted the verse in his Apology, Against Praxeas
So? No one is claiming that the VERSE 1 John 5:7 wasn't around back then. But did Tertullian quote the EXTRA WORDS when he quoted the verse? Your author doesn't actually say that, does he?Quote (Marlin1 @ Oct. 31 2012,17:54) 800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
Hmmmm…………… I wonder WHY the original Vulgate doesn't have those extra words?Quote (Marlin1 @ Oct. 31 2012,17:54) 1000s AD miniscule 635 has it
It sure does……………… AS A MARGINAL NOTE written by the scribe – but NOT in the text.Quote (Marlin1 @ Oct. 31 2012,17:54) 1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin
Hmmmm……….. why in the margin, and not in the actual text?Quote (Marlin1 @ Oct. 31 2012,17:54) 1300s AD miniscule 629 has it
BINGO! This is the very OLDEST mss known to man that has those extra words IN THE TEXT – just as I have already told you.Now Marlin, considering that we have uncovered THOUSANDS of Greek texts over the years, why do you suppose those extra words are only in the TEXT of FOUR mss?
Only FOUR? Out of THOUSANDS OF THEM? Why do you suppose that is? And better yet, WHY do you suppose that NOT ONE of the more recent Bibles, all of which (except the Jehovah's Witnesses' NWT) were produced by admitted TRINITARIANS, have those extra words?
Marlin, I agree with you that those words wouldn't, in a million years, ever “prove the trinitarian dogma of three persons in one God”. But if they are in the MARGINS of a couple of mss, and then, in the 14th century, end up in the TEXT of a couple more, doesn't it seem OBVIOUS to you that those words were ADDED INTO the text of 1 John 5:7?
It does to me.
Quote (Marlin1 @ Oct. 31 2012,17:54) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) What does it mean for Jesus to have said, “Before Abraham came into being, Jehovah!” ? What did Jesus mean by that statement, Marlin? Surely he didn't mean “I AM JEHOVAH!”, He meant exactly that.
John 14:9 ……..Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; ….
1. Do you believe the Son IS the Father?2. Can you show me in John 8:58 where Jesus said the words, “I am I AM”? Because I can surely show you that in EVERY instance in the OT where Jehovah claimed to BE Jehovah, the words were, “I am I AM”.
3. Did you know that the words virtually every English Bible translates as “I HAVE BEEN” in John 14:9 (as your KJV translates the first three words of the verse) are really the same Greek words that are in John 8:58? They are the present tense “I AM” in 14:9, just as they are in 8:58. Yet, these translators, knowing full well that there are many idiomatic problems when trying to translate Greek into English, make the proper adjustment in 14:9, and render the present tense “I AM” as the perfect tense “I HAVE BEEN”. Unfortunately, because of their bias, and their zeal to FORCE the scriptures into teaching that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of, they don't make the proper adjustment in 8:58. John 8:58 is correctly translated as the NWT has it:
58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”
See? The Jews were claiming that Jesus couldn't possibly have seen Abraham because he was not yet 50 years old. And Jesus was correcting them by saying that before Abraham even came into being, he has existed.
This is what the Greek expert Jason BeDuhn says about it, in his book, Truth in Translation:
The majority of translations recognize these idiomatic uses of ‘I am’, and properly integrate the words into the context of the passages where they appear. Yet when it comes to 8:58, they suddenly forget how to translate. All the translations except the LB and NWT also ignore the true relation between the verbs of the sentence and produce a sentence that makes no sense in English. These changes in the meaning of the Greek and in the normal procedure for translation point to a bias that has interfered with the work of the translators. No one listening to Jesus, and no one reading John in his own time would have picked up on a divine self-identification in the mere expression ‘I am’, which, if you think about it, is just about the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language.
Quote Was it ONLY men that God used, Marlin? Or did God also send His spiritual sons as saviors to His people? (Remember the angel that killed 185,000 Assyrians in one night?) So tell me why these judges that God used as saviors are not God Himself, but God's holy servant Jesus, who He also used as a savior, IS God Himself?
Can you see your bias showing? We can.
Brother Mike,
I am BIAS, Jesus is everything to me. So I am very BIAS.
If you can show one of your saviours that is Emmanuel, God tabernacled in Flesh, Begotten Son of God, then you might have a point, else you don't.
ISAIAH 43:11 † I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
God is our SaviourJohn 4:42 ……this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
PHILIPPIANS 3:20 † For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
I TIMOTHY 2:3 † For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
II TIMOTHY 1:10 † But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ,
I JOHN 4:14 † And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.JOHN 10:30 † I and my Father are one.
Believe the scriptures my brother,
God is our Saviour and His Name is the Lord Jesus Christ.
JOHN 10:25 † Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.JOHN 17:11 † And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
The Angel of the Lord is exactly that, an Angel from the presents of Almighty God, not a son.
But surly you already new that.God Bless
bro. MarlinMarlin,
Your point was that God was LITERALLY the ONLY Savior, and therefore, Jesus, as a Savior, must BE God.
I pointed out to you that God has SENT other saviors to His people, right?
My question is why Jesus has to be the God who sent him to be our savior, while these other ones aren't the God who sent them.
Saying that Jesus is the only one who was called “the only begotten Son of God” is not an answer.
Quote (Marlin1 @ Oct. 31 2012,20:48) JOHN 10:30 † I and my Father are one. Believe the scriptures my brother,
God is our Saviour and His Name is the Lord Jesus Christ.
I see that you are still bringing up even more “trinity proof texts”, while ignoring the fact that I've shot all the other ones down so far. That's okay, keep them coming.First of all, our God is also Jesus' God – for Jesus himself said so.
Secondly, the name of our God is YHWH, commonly called “Jehovah” or “Yahweh” in English. That God isn't named Jesus, but has a SON named Jesus.
And lastly, what do you think John 10:30 proves? Don't forget that Jesus' hope was for the elect to also be one with him and his God. If us being one with our God doesn't mean we will BE God, then how does Jesus being one with his God mean he IS God?
Brother Mike,
Yep, according to Mike and his scholars, they all LIED.
Brother Mike, I believe the Word as written in the King James. I believe it because my God is able to protect His Word. You may even be right with that some scriptures are not in the earliest manuscripts. But you know that is in material if you have the correct revelation of the scriptures. Jesus said He would build His church upon the rock of REVELATION of who He is and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
God is more then able to protect His Word. For those that want the scripture to line up with their own doctrine, well God has given you a way.
Also, like I said before, the church world has gotten its self into a real mess. And God said He would correct it by sending a Prophet and He did. And who does the Word of God come to, the Prophet.
So you see my brother, I will stand my ground, even if I can not always explain it to someones satisfaction.
EPHESIANS 6:13 † Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, TO STAND.God Bless
bro. MarlinQuote (Marlin1 @ Nov. 01 2012,10:24) Brother Mike, Yep, according to Mike and his scholars, they all LIED.
Brother Mike, I believe the Word as written in the King James. I believe it because my God is able to protect His Word. You may even be right with that some scriptures are not in the earliest manuscripts. But you know that is in material if you have the correct revelation of the scriptures. Jesus said He would build His church upon the rock of REVELATION of who He is and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
God is more then able to protect His Word. For those that want the scripture to line up with their own doctrine, well God has given you a way.
Also, like I said before, the church world has gotten its self into a real mess. And God said He would correct it by sending a Prophet and He did. And who does the Word of God come to, the Prophet.
So you see my brother, I will stand my ground, even if I can not always explain it to someones satisfaction.
EPHESIANS 6:13 † Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, TO STAND.God Bless
bro. Marlin
]m1Quote So you see my brother, I will stand my ground, even if I can not always explain it to someones satisfaction.
EPHESIANS 6:13 † Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, TO STAND.that must heavy ,I mean the armour of God ,???
I thought God was an spirit
is not the armour a physical thing and how long will you stand in the midle of the field without any weapons ,to fight back with
?you are naked as I can see
Quote you are naked as I can see Well Brother Pierre, I am so glad I do not have to answer to you.
I wish you all the best my brother.God Bless
bro. MarlinQuote (Marlin1 @ Oct. 31 2012,22:24) Jesus said He would build His church upon the rock of REVELATION of who He is and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
And what exactly was that “rock of revelation”, Marlin? That Jesus was God Almighty? Or that Jesus was the SON OF God Almighty?Which one?
Quote (Marlin1 @ Oct. 31 2012,22:24) You may even be right with that some scriptures are not in the earliest manuscripts.
Well Marlin,If certain words were not in the oldest mss, but then started showing up IN THE MARGINS of more recent mss, and finally ended up IN THE TEXT of even more recent mss, then it doesn't really take a rocket scientist to figure out what has happened over time, does it?
peace,
mike]
Quote (Marlin1 @ Nov. 02 2012,06:21) Quote you are naked as I can see Well Brother Pierre, I am so glad I do not have to answer to you.
I wish you all the best my brother.God Bless
bro. Marlin
]M1THOSE WORDS I HAVE SAID,I ONLY RETURN THEM TO YOU ,THEY ARE NOT MINE BUT YOURS
Quote And what exactly was that “rock of revelation”, Marlin? That Jesus was God Almighty? Or that Jesus was the SON OF God Almighty? Which one?
Brother Mike,
If a revelation could be taught, then it wouldn't take a revelation from God, would it.
There are those that try to cut God into three and there are those that try to cut God in two.
I will show you one example of 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three (titles) are one.
You can't have the Father without having the Son; you can't have the Son without having the Holy Ghost, for they are inseparable, one. This trinity of titles is one.
LUKE 10:22 † All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
God Bless
bro. Marlinm1
Quote I will show you one example of 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three (titles) are one. You can't have the Father without having the Son; you can't have the Son without having the Holy Ghost, for they are inseparable, one. This trinity of titles is one.
so you also believe like Kathi that the son his not a creation
right ??Quote (Marlin1 @ Nov. 02 2012,17:49) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) And what exactly was that “rock of revelation”, Marlin? That Jesus was God Almighty? Or that Jesus was the SON OF God Almighty? Which one?
Brother Mike,
If a revelation could be taught, then it wouldn't take a revelation from God, would it.
Hi Marlin,Why didn't you actually answer my question? You make it sound as if Jesus' words in Matthew 16:18 were speaking about some secret revelation that has been revealed to you and other Trinitarians, but not to the rest of us. But that isn't really the case, is it? We already know, from Peter's words in verse 16, what revelation God gave him, right? Likewise, we already know from verses 17 and 18 that Jesus himself confirmed Peter's revelation from God as being correct. So there is no secret, hidden revelation in this passage, Marlin.
The revelation from God to Peter was not a secret, but a simple and clear revelation that Jesus was the Son of God. And Jesus confirmed this revelation as being so important that he would build his church upon it.
I can't help the fact that you want to imagine a secret revelation WITHIN the actual revelation – one that says Jesus is the Son of God, and therefore the very God he is the Son of. All I can tell you is that your imagined, secret revelation comes from the mind of men, and not from that scripture.
The revelation upon which Jesus built his church was NOT that Jesus was God Himself – but that he was the SON OF God. Am I wrong?
Quote (Marlin1 @ Nov. 02 2012,17:49) There are those that try to cut God into three and there are those that try to cut God in two.
Agreed. As for me, I will believe the scriptures that say YHWH is one, and that HE (not “THEY”) has a Son named Jesus.Quote (Marlin1 @ Nov. 02 2012,17:49) I will show you one example of 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three (titles) are one.
Hmmmmm…………. We've discussed how these words popped up in the MARGINS of a couple of mss, a thousand years after the scripture was written. And how they subsequently made their way into the text of ONLY FOUR mss – out of THOUSANDS of them. And how none of the more recent Bibles, most of which were produced by TRINITARIANS, don't have those words in them – because the translators KNOW they are words that were added to the scripture after the fact. And most importantly, we've discussed how those words, EVEN IF they WERE really John's words, still wouldn't, as YOU put it, “prove the trinitarian dogma of three persons in one God”.So I wonder why you keep bringing those words up, as if they ARE legit, and as if they DO support your trinitarian dogma of three persons in one God.
Quote (Marlin1 @ Nov. 02 2012,17:49) LUKE 10:22 † All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
In the verse above, I see that God delivers all things to His holy servant Jesus Christ. I see that the Son is a different being than the Father he reveals to us.What does your Trinitarian bias cause YOU to see in that verse, Marlin?
Quote Why didn't you actually answer my question? You make it sound as if Jesus' words in Matthew 16:18 were speaking about some secret revelation that has been revealed to you and other Trinitarians, but not to the rest of us. But that isn't really the case, is it? We already know, from Peter's words in verse 16, what revelation God gave him, right? Likewise, we already know from verses 17 and 18 that Jesus himself confirmed Peter's revelation from God as being correct. So there is no secret, hidden revelation in this passage, Marlin. The revelation from God to Peter was not a secret, but a simple and clear revelation that Jesus was the Son of God. And Jesus confirmed this revelation as being so important that he would build his church upon it.
I can't help the fact that you want to imagine a secret revelation WITHIN the actual revelation – one that says Jesus is the Son of God, and therefore the very God he is the Son of. All I can tell you is that your imagined, secret revelation comes from the mind of men, and not from that scripture.
The revelation upon which Jesus built his church was NOT that Jesus was God Himself – but that he was the SON OF God. Am I wrong?
Brother Mike,
You can tell me lots of things, that just doesn't make it so.
So here we go again, the truth according to Brother Mike, Jesus lied.
Don't you get it, Jesus had told them many times who he was. Yet He said here that you can not TEACH it, so you CAN NOT LEARN it from reading or someone telling you. Jesus SAID it was REVEALED by His Father to Peter. Unless God reveals to you who Jesus is, you will never KNOW.You can say it is a private revelation, which it is. It is for all those that can receive it from God.
I have no idea why you would call me a trinitarian, Their doctrine of three persons came from satan and will return to satan, just like your doctrine of two Gods.
Just like 1 John 4:2 …….Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
Almost everybody believes that Jesus came in the flesh, but most don't even know who He is.Some think that He was just a prophet, that He was just a man, that He was just a teacher or a good man, HE was the DIVINE JEHOVAH GOD living in a BODY of Flesh.
Jesus was God's own flesh.
I TIMOTHY 3:16 † And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Man handled God.Jesus was the FULLNESS of the GODHEAD BODILY. Col 2:9
In Jesus was the Spirit without MEASURE. John 3:34GOD was manifested in Flesh reconciling the World to Himself. 2 Cor 5:19
Jesus wasn't the 2nd, 3rd person, He was THE PERSON of GOD, HE was GOD, He was Immanuel (God with us), God come down from glory, revealed Himself.Quote I will show you one example of 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three (titles) are one. Hmmmmm…………. We've discussed how these words popped up in the MARGINS of a couple of mss, a thousand years after the scripture was written. And how they subsequently made their way into the text of ONLY FOUR mss – out of THOUSANDS of them. And how none of the more recent Bibles, most of which were produced by TRINITARIANS, don't have those words in them – because the translators KNOW they are words that were added to the scripture after the fact. And most importantly, we've discussed how those words, EVEN IF they WERE really John's words, still wouldn't, as YOU put it, “prove the trinitarian dogma of three persons in one God”.
So I wonder why you keep bringing those words up, as if they ARE legit, and as if they DO support your trinitarian dogma of three persons in one God.
Well my brother, I showed you evidence that this scripture was use way back 200 AD. Of course you downplayed that, because it doesn't fit your doctrine. I used it as an example to show that those three titles, just like Mat 28:19 are the titles to a NAME, A single NAME.
Quote LUKE 10:22 † All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. In the verse above, I see that God delivers all things to His holy servant Jesus Christ. I see that the Son is a different being than the Father he reveals to us.
And I see, you CAN NOT KNOW the FATHER unless the SON has REVEALED, (OH there is that word REVELATION again), it to you. And if you know the FATHER then you KNOW the SON. Only by revelation from God will anyone know GOD.
God Bless
bro. Marlin
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