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Quote Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; The Greek word arche properly means “origin” or “ruler/chief”, not “start”……
G746
archē
From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): – beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.The Abridged Liddell-Scott Greek-English Lexicon defines it this way “a beginning, origin, first cause” or “the first place or power, sovereignty, dominion, command”. This verse testifies that Jesus was the “power” over creation or it's “First-cause” – the Creator rather than one of God’s creations.
Vines Dictionary of New Testament Words (Vol.1, p.111) records this:
“Arche means a beginning. The root arch – primarily indicated what was of worth. Hence the verb archo meant 'to be first,' and archon denoted a ruler. So also arose the idea of a beginning, the origin, the active cause, whether a person or thing.Rev 3:14 doesn't teach that He was created by God; it means that He brought the creation of God into being…..Here are a few other translations to consider:
Revelation 3:14 (AMP)
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.Revelation 3:14 (NASB)
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the [a]Beginning of the creation of God, says this:Footnotes:
[a] Revelation 3:14 I.e. Origin or SourceRevelation 3:14 (NLT)
“Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning[a] of God’s new creation:Footnotes:
Revelation 3:14 Or the ruler, or the source.Revelation 3:14 (CEV)
This is what you must write to the angel of the church in Laodicea:
I am the one called Amen! I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God's creation. Listen to what I say.Revelation 3:14 (YLT)
And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness — the faithful and true — the chief of the creation of GodRevelation 3:14 (HCSB)
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
“The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God's creation says:Revelation 3:14 (NIRV)
“Here is what I command you to write to the church in Laodicea. Here are the words of the One who is the Amen. What he gives witness to is faithful and true. He rules over what God has created. He says,Revelation 3:14 (WE)
Write this to the angel of the church people in Laodicea: Here are the words of the one whose name is Truth. What he says can be trusted. He is the one who began all that God made.Revelation 3:14 (NIVUK)
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.Revelation 3:14 (TNIV)
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.Blessings
Edited to correct a incorrect version reference (I wanted to post a correction and tried to quote a part of my original one, but clicked 'edit' instead of 'quote' and lost the original one – have have tried to rebuild it so, as much as possible, it resembles the original):
correction:
Quote Revelation 3:14 (AMP)
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.Actually the above was from the NIV, not the Amplified version. It renders the verse this way:
Revelation 3:14 (AMP)
And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the trusty and faithful and true Witness, the Origin and Beginning and Author of God's creation:I have moved this discussion to 'Truth or Tradition' as it argued here whether Jesus is Michael is truth or a teaching of men.
HI Is 1.18,
Thanks,
Certainly ARCHangel means chief angel and I presume they are from the same word. So God created through Jesus, the Word of God. I can see that fits with scripture as God uses agents to do His work. So the original begettal of the Son in the beginning produced the chief agent of the creation of God.Quote All this about Michael being Jesus. Michael could not have been Jesus because there was only the Word. The Word was the beginning of God's creation. The Word created everything including Michael the Archangel. That was the Word then in heaven. Then Word became flesh (Jesus)and dwelt among us (John1:1). “Any one that says Jesus has not come in the flesh is the antichrist”. John is speaking about those who would say that Jesus was not the Son of God. Somebody show me where the flesh (Jesus) became Jesus the flesh. The same for Michael. There is no scripture that says Michael the Archangel became flesh and dwelt among us. Michael did not became Jesus! The WORD became Jesus. I would apreciate some input why the above statement is wrong. I believe it to be right. I want the truth. Now if this statement is not true then show me why it is not.
Hi Kenrch!
Amen very sound!
In fact because the Word created **everything** including Michael, then by this we know that he didn’t have a beginning! Unless he created himself!
Quote The Greek word arche properly means “origin” or “ruler/chief”, not “start”…… G746
archē
From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): – beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.The Abridged Liddell-Scott Greek-English Lexicon defines it this way “a beginning, origin, first cause” or “the first place or power, sovereignty, dominion, command”. This verse testifies that Jesus was the “power” over creation or it's “First-cause” – the Creator rather than one of God’s creations.
Vines Dictionary of New Testament Words (Vol.1, p.111) records this:
“Arche means a beginning. The root arch – primarily indicated what was of worth. Hence the verb archo meant 'to be first,' and archon denoted a ruler. So also arose the idea of a beginning, the origin, the active cause, whether a person or thing.Rev 3:14 doesn't teach that He was created by God; it means that He brought the creation of God into being…..Here are a few other translations to consider:
Revelation 3:14 (AMP)
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.Revelation 3:14 (NASB)
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the [a]Beginning of the creation of God, says this:Footnotes:
[a] Revelation 3:14 I.e. Origin or SourceRevelation 3:14 (NLT)
“Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning[a] of God’s new creation:Footnotes:
Revelation 3:14 Or the ruler, or the source.Revelation 3:14 (CEV)
This is what you must write to the angel of the church in Laodicea:
I am the one called Amen! I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God's creation. Listen to what I say.Revelation 3:14 (YLT)
And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness — the faithful and true — the chief of the creation of GodRevelation 3:14 (HCSB)
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
“The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God's creation says:Revelation 3:14 (NIRV)
“Here is what I command you to write to the church in Laodicea. Here are the words of the One who is the Amen. What he gives witness to is faithful and true. He rules over what God has created. He says,Revelation 3:14 (WE)
Write this to the angel of the church people in Laodicea: Here are the words of the one whose name is Truth. What he says can be trusted. He is the one who began all that God made.Revelation 3:14 (NIVUK)
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.Revelation 3:14 (TNIV)
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.Blessings
Excellent Is 1:18!!
Good to have a sound teacher pop in this sight now and then!
Blessings to You!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2006,20:40) Quote All this about Michael being Jesus. Michael could not have been Jesus because there was only the Word. The Word was the beginning of God's creation. The Word created everything including Michael the Archangel. That was the Word then in heaven. Then Word became flesh (Jesus)and dwelt among us (John1:1). “Any one that says Jesus has not come in the flesh is the antichrist”. John is speaking about those who would say that Jesus was not the Son of God. Somebody show me where the flesh (Jesus) became Jesus the flesh. The same for Michael. There is no scripture that says Michael the Archangel became flesh and dwelt among us. Michael did not became Jesus! The WORD became Jesus. I would apreciate some input why the above statement is wrong. I believe it to be right. I want the truth. Now if this statement is not true then show me why it is not.
Hi Kenrch!
Amen very sound!
In fact because the Word created **everything** including Michael, then by this we know that he didn’t have a beginning! Unless he created himself!
Hi Kenrch,
Very good.
Of course the Creator is God who created through His Agent Jesus.1Cor 3
” 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.”
Ecc 12
” Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, “I have no delight in them”;Isaiah 27:11
When its limbs are dry, they are broken off;Women come and make a fire with them,For they are not a people of discernment,Therefore their Maker will not have compassion on them.And their Creator will not be gracious to them.Isaiah 40:28
Do you not know? Have you not heard?The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earthDoes not become weary or tired His understanding is inscrutable.Isaiah 43:1
But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob,And He who formed you, O Israel,”Do not fear, for I have redeemed you;I have called you by name; you are Mine!Isaiah 43:15
“I am the LORD, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.”Romans 1:25
For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=154
Quote Revelation 3:14
To the angel of the church in Laodicea, write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. (NIV)1. As it is translated above, there is no Trinitarian inference in the verse. It agrees perfectly with what we know from the whole of Scripture: that God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ.
2. In the KJV, the word “ruler” (Greek = arche) is translated “beginning.” The word arche can mean “beginning,” “first” or “ruler.” When most people read the KJV, they say that Jesus Christ is the “beginning” of God’s original creation, and this has caused some people to say that the verse is Trinitarian, because Jesus would thus have been before everything else. If that interpretation is correct, then this verse would be a strong argument against the Trinity because then Christ would be a created being. “Arianism” is the doctrine that Christ was the first of all of God’s created things and that God then created everything else through Christ, and the way the KJV translates the verse can be understood as Arian.
3. It is possible (and some scholars do handle the verse this way) to understand the word “beginning” as applying to the beginning of the new ages that Christ will establish. If that were so, the verse would be similar to Hebrews 1:10. Christ, being the “firstborn from the dead,” would be the beginning of God’s new creation. Although it is certainly possible from a textual standpoint to handle the verse that way, the context of the verse is Christ ruling over his people. He is reproving and disciplining them (v. 19) and granting places beside him with the Father (v. 21). Thus, the translation of arche as “ruler” is a good translation and best fits the context. No one can argue with the fact that Christ is the ruler over all of God’s creation.
Broughton and Southgate, pp. 286-293
Snedeker, p. 470
Quote Hi Kenrch! Amen very sound!
In fact because the Word created **everything** including Michael, then by this we know that he didn’t have a beginning! Unless he created himself!
Hi Kenrch!
Maybe I should make it a little plainer.
In fact because God created through the Word **everything** including Michael, then by this we know that the Word did not have a beginning unless he created the Word through the Word!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2006,21:56) Quote Hi Kenrch! Amen very sound!
In fact because the Word created **everything** including Michael, then by this we know that he didn’t have a beginning! Unless he created himself!
Hi Kenrch!
Maybe I should make it a little plainer.
In fact because God created through the Word **everything** including Michael, then by this we know that the Word did not have a beginning unless he created the Word through the Word!
Hi W,
We do not follow Arius by saying the Son was created. The Son was begotten as the unique monogenes Son of God. Through him all the other sons of God shown in Gen 6, Jb1, 2, 38 and of course all of creation, were created by God.
Ps 2
'7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 11 2006,03:58) Rev 3:14 doesn't teach that He was created by God; it means that He brought the creation of God into being…..Here are a few other translations to consider:
Correct.But you say that he is God. That is the real problem.
He is the Word by which God created all things into existence.
This is what John teaches us.
Put aside Greek thinking for a minute and try not to confine yourselves to created – uncreated.
Between the uncreated God and creation, then was an intermediary step. This mediator is Christ who is the Word become flesh. He is the ONLY begotten and the only one who has seen God and can declare him.
There is a big jump between God and created beings. In fact we cannot even see God, so forget about trying to shake his hand.
But for us there is the image of God. i.e., Christ, who reveals the invisible God to us.
That is why Jesus said “if you have seen me you have seen the Father”.
Jesus wasn't a created angel and nor was he the non-created God.
Scripture is clear.
He is and was the Word of God.
The firstborn son.
The only begotten.Now if we are to correctly understand the truth about rank and where Christ is in relation to God and us. Look at this next scripture:
1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.So us created beings have a head who is Christ. BUT Christ also has a head who is GOD. Can you grasp what this means? It changes the very foundation of most denominations and this is why such teaching from scripture is largely ignored. Men want to cling to that which they create with their own hands.
Anyway, it is understandable that Christ is our origin. For he is our head and we came into being by God through Christ.
- God > Christ/Word > Man > Woman.
- God > Christ/Word > creation
It isn't the following as many some who come here advocate:
- God > Angel > Man
- God/Father > God/Jesus > Man/creation.
Greek thinking sets the stage for the exisitence of those last 2 incorrect points.
That is why I am convinced that Greek thinking has contaminated much of Christianity. Sadly many of these infected people fight to stay infected and try to infect others.
But Paul knew about the Greeks and their philosophy, yet he preached “Christ crucified” to them, which was an offence to their proud intellectualism.
So he didn't take the stance of trying to compete with their intellectual understanding of things because he knew the foolishness of God was greater than the wisdom of men.
Yet some come here and try to intellectualise false doctrine. But false doctrine is false doctrine, no matter how big the words you use.
Jesus is not created nor is he the uncreated God.
Instead, he is the only begotten of God, the Word OF God.A wise man will stick to revelation from God which includes scripture. A foolish man will imagine all kinds of vain imaginations with his own mind from his own spirit and try to create God in an image that fits his limited understanding.
Quote Jesus wasn't a created angel and nor was he the non-created God. t8
Unscriptural. The word was with God and the Word Was God!
Since **all things** were created by him and for him he had no beginning!
Unless you would say that God created **all things** through the Logos including the Logos!
Hi W,
I presume you are relying on Micah 5
'Micah 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
“From everlasting” has no more meaning than from “the beginning”-before time.
It makes no statement that the son is not a real son as he always was and has never become separate from God. If he has never been separate from God why does Jesus so empahasise their unity? What vlaue is unity if it is between two parts of one being?Quote Now if we are to correctly understand the truth about rank and where Christ is in relation to God and us. Look at this next scripture: 1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.So us created beings have a head who is Christ. BUT Christ also has a head who is GOD. Can you grasp what this means? It changes the very foundation of most denominations and this is why such teaching from scripture is largely ignored. Men want to cling to that which they create with their own hands.
Yes God is the head of Christ who is his body seeing that it pleased the Father to take on human form through his Word who proceeded out of his bosom and returned back into his bosom and the Man Jesus was glorified with the Glory he had with the Father as God!
All the fullness of the God head dwelling in that Body!
The Word was with God and the Word was God! The Word is still with God and the Word is still God!
The Lord our God is ONE!
Quote Hi W,
I presume you are relying on Micah 5
'Micah 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
“From everlasting” has no more meaning than from “the beginning”-before time.
It makes no statement that the son is not a real son as he always was and has never become separate from God. If he has never been separate from God why does Jesus so empahasise their unity? What vlaue is unity if it is between two parts of one being?Nick!
Tell me, Did God through the Logo create all things, if so did the Logos come into existance from the Logos!
Not a hard one to answer unless you turn your eyes for the truth!
Quote Hi W,
I presume you are relying on Micah 5
'Micah 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
“From everlasting” has no more meaning than from “the beginning”-before time.
It makes no statement that the son is not a real son as he always was and has never become separate from God. If he has never been separate from God why does Jesus so empahasise their unity? What vlaue is unity if it is between two parts of one being?No I'm relying on simple truth If all things were made through him than he didnt mak himself!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 11 2006,19:37) Quote Hi W,
I presume you are relying on Micah 5
'Micah 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
“From everlasting” has no more meaning than from “the beginning”-before time.
It makes no statement that the son is not a real son as he always was and has never become separate from God. If he has never been separate from God why does Jesus so empahasise their unity? What vlaue is unity if it is between two parts of one being?Nick!
Tell me, Did God through the Logo create all things, if so did the Logos come into existance from the Logos!
Not a hard one to answer unless you turn your eyes for the truth!
Hi W,
Have you not yet grasped that the Son was begotten and not created and all creation came through him?Ps 2
'7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 'Quote Hi W,
Have you not yet grasped that the Son was begotten and not created and all creation came through him?Ps 2
'7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 'Have you not grasped that by him all things consist, and if all things consist by him and he is a part of all things then he was not made or came into existence!
Now since we know that God did not make himself then by this we Know that the Word is eternal.
Heb 11:33] Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Hi W,
The Son of God is the Son of God and God has become his father. He is the agent for all of God's works of creation and all things are maintained by him.Why would God be God have to do all things Himself?
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