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Quote (thethinker @ May 02 2010,12:04) The earliest manuscripts we have say that it was Jesus who saved the people out of Egypt: 5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 5 ESV (Critical Text)
Hi Thinker,I have seen you mention this many times. Could you show me the ancient translation that has “Jesus” saving the Israelites? And possibly any info regarding how it came to be that no English translation words it a such?
Hi TT,
The Spirit of Christ has been with the Israelites as the Rock.[1Cor10]
But though the Lord is the Spirit, that Spirit originates in God.Worshipping the vessel rather than God will always cause you confusion.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2010,05:41) Quote (thethinker @ May 02 2010,12:04) The earliest manuscripts we have say that it was Jesus who saved the people out of Egypt: 5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 5 ESV (Critical Text)
Hi Thinker,I have seen you mention this many times. Could you show me the ancient translation that has “Jesus” saving the Israelites? And possibly any info regarding how it came to be that no English translation words it a such?
Mike,You are incorrect when you say that no English translation says “Jesus.”
ESV: 5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude%204-5&version=ESV
The ESV translation is from the Critical Text which is from the earliest Greek manuscripts we have to date.
The marginal notes in the NASB and the NIV indicate that the earlier manuscripts say that it was “Jesus” who saved the people out of Eqypt.
NASB marginal note: a.Jude 1:5 Two early mss read Jesus
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage….on=NASB
NIV marginal note: b.Jude 1:5 Some early manuscripts Jesus
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude%204-5&version=NIV
The new Living translation aslo reads “Jesus” and indicates in its marginal note that this reading is from the “best” manuscripts.
5 So I want to remind you, though you already know these things, that Jesus[a] first rescued the nation of Israel from Egypt, but later he destroyed those who did not remain faithful.
Footnotes:
a.Jude 1:5 As in the best manuscripts; various other manuscripts read [the] Lord, or God, or Christ; one reads God Christ.http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude%204-5&version=NLT
Moses said that it was Jehovah's Messenger who saved them from Egypt:
16 When we cried out to the LORD, He heard our voice and sent the Messenger and He brought us up out of Egypt; now here we are in Kadesh, a city on the edge of your border. Numbers 20:16
Jehovah said that His Messenger would lead them to the place He had prepared for them:
Quote 20 “Behold, I send My Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Messenger will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars.
25 “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.Jehovah said that His Messenger would lead them and in verse 25 calls Him “Jehovah your God” saying, “serve Jehovah your God and HE will bless you.” Then He switches to the first person and says, “And I will take away your sickness.”
According to Jude 5 the Messenger who saved them from Egypt and led them afterwards is Jesus. Jehovah himself called His Messenger (Jesus) “Jehovah your God” (Ex. 23:25).
thinker
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2010,17:56) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2010,05:02) Did you just say “theological”? Thats not in the Bible either is it? How about “indescribable” or “Omnipresent” or “unattainable”, they are not in the Bible either are they?
Mikes point is moot and so is yours!
WJ
Hi WJ,Does this nonsense really make your point, in your mind? The Hebrews worshipped one God only. True Christians worship one God only. There is no “God/Man”
Nor is there anything even alluding to such a creature.mike
MikeThats funny since you say Jesus is “a god” and “a man”.
WJ
Quote (martian @ May 01 2010,18:01) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2010,05:02) Quote (martian @ May 01 2010,12:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2010,03:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2010,11:49) Hi WJ, I have never seen the phrase God/Man in the Bible. You are inventing deities.
peace and love,
mike
MikeI have never seen the word Bible in the Bible, but it does exist doesn't it?
WJ
The term “Bible” does not carry within it's meaning a theological idea or theory. Man/God does. It is a man made word to describe a man made doctrine.
MartianDid you just say “theological”?
Thats not in the Bible either is it? How about “indescribable” or “Omnipresent” or “unattainable”, they are not in the Bible either are they?
Mikes point is moot and so is yours!
WJ
Still silly — Those words you quote do not carry a “doctrinal” bent.
In the one word “God/man” you imply a doctrinal assumption that is the very subject of this discussion. You cannot imply proof by making up a word based on your theory.
You are so full of nonsense it is very sad.
noMy point is valid and you do not like it.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2010,21:48) Quote (thethinker @ May 02 2010,12:04) Therefore, Jesus was the Messenger of Jehovah who appeared to Moses in the burning bush, who claimed to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (3:6) and who Moses said appeared to Him (4:1) and who saved the people out of Egypt (Jude 5).
Hi Thinker,How do you reconcile your view with Acts 7?
30 “And when forty years were fulfilled, there appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Si′nai an angel in the fiery flame of a thornbush. 31 Now when Moses saw it he marveled at the sight. But as he was approaching to investigate, Jehovah’s voice came, 32 ‘I am the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob.’
peace and love,
mike
MikeThe Greek word for “angel” is 'aggelos', which means…
a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God
It does not contradict what Jack is saying. Youngs litteral transaltion reads…
and forty years having been fulfilled, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai “a messenger (aggelos) of the Lord“, in a flame of fire of a bush,
Four times the word 'aggelos' is used in referring to John the baptist, and we know he was not an Angel.
Jack has already shown you that the messenger can also be Jehovah.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2010,03:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2010,21:48) Quote (thethinker @ May 02 2010,12:04) Therefore, Jesus was the Messenger of Jehovah who appeared to Moses in the burning bush, who claimed to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (3:6) and who Moses said appeared to Him (4:1) and who saved the people out of Egypt (Jude 5).
Hi Thinker,How do you reconcile your view with Acts 7?
30 “And when forty years were fulfilled, there appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Si′nai an angel in the fiery flame of a thornbush. 31 Now when Moses saw it he marveled at the sight. But as he was approaching to investigate, Jehovah’s voice came, 32 ‘I am the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob.’
peace and love,
mike
MikeThe Greek word for “angel” is 'aggelos', which means…
a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God
It does not contradict what Jack is saying. Youngs litteral transaltion reads…
and forty years having been fulfilled, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai “a messenger (aggelos) of the Lord“, in a flame of fire of a bush,
Four times the word 'aggelos' is used in referring to John the baptist, and we know he was not an Angel.
Jack has already shown you that the messenger can also be Jehovah.
WJ
Keith,Mike knows too well that the word “angel” means “messenger.” He is playing his silly word games again like he did with “bought with the blood of his own.”
Mike,
See my post above inwhich I answered your query about the word “Jesus” in Jude 5.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 04 2010,02:47) 25 “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.
Hi Thinker,All of this nonsense boils down to two major issues:
1. If the “HE” is Jehovah your God, then the “I” must be someone OTHER THAN Jehovah your God. Is that right? You say the first to third party explanation doesn't work. Yet you say that Jesus and Jehovah are one being. So even if one is Jesus and one is Jehovah, the “HE” and the “I” are both still “Jehovah your God”. So even with your schizophrenic
version of God, Jehovah is clearly talking in the first and third person alternately.2. Like Nick says, and like I've asked before, Is God Almighty a messenger to anyone? Is it okay with you that your All Powerful God Jesus delivers messages on command? Because my All Powerful God Jehovah doesn't deliver anyone's messages like He's an errand boy or something. And franky, I don't think it would sit well with me if He did.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 04 2010,15:17) Quote (thethinker @ May 04 2010,02:47) 25 “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.
Hi Thinker,All of this nonsense boils down to two major issues:
1. If the “HE” is Jehovah your God, then the “I” must be someone OTHER THAN Jehovah your God. Is that right? You say the first to third party explanation doesn't work. Yet you say that Jesus and Jehovah are one being. So even if one is Jesus and one is Jehovah, the “HE” and the “I” are both still “Jehovah your God”. So even with your schizophrenic
version of God, Jehovah is clearly talking in the first and third person alternately.2. Like Nick says, and like I've asked before, Is God Almighty a messenger to anyone? Is it okay with you that your All Powerful God Jesus delivers messages on command? Because my All Powerful God Jehovah doesn't deliver anyone's messages like He's an errand boy or something. And franky, I don't think it would sit well with me if He did.
peace and love,
mike
Amen and Amen againQuote (martian @ May 03 2010,04:59) Thinker says “There Martian goes again misrepresenting things. I have never said that the word elohim indicates the trinity. I said that it indicates a “plural unity” in God. I said that the new testament proves the trinity.”
Well thinker what is the unity of? Unity of what?Thinker says “Martian creates a caricature of what thinker and WJ believe and then calls it “muck and guck.”
thankfully I do not have to work to make anything up. You make up enough muck and guck up all by yourself. Besides you two are not worth the trouble to design intricate tales about.
You did not answer my question thinker? Read the quote and please answer.Quote (martian @ May 08 2010,10:58) Quote (martian @ May 03 2010,04:59) Thinker says “There Martian goes again misrepresenting things. I have never said that the word elohim indicates the trinity. I said that it indicates a “plural unity” in God. I said that the new testament proves the trinity.”
Well thinker what is the unity of? Unity of what?Thinker says “Martian creates a caricature of what thinker and WJ believe and then calls it “muck and guck.”
thankfully I do not have to work to make anything up. You make up enough muck and guck up all by yourself. Besides you two are not worth the trouble to design intricate tales about.
You did not answer my question thinker? Read the quote and please answer.
I have let a week go by and still no answer from Thinker. He says Elohyim means a plural unity in God.
WHAT IS THE UNITY? A UNITY OF WHAT?GO AHEAD ABND SAY IT. WE ALL KNOW YOU BELIEVE IN PLURAL GODS. THAT IS THE ONLY UNITY THAT YOU CAN MEAN.
MORE MUCK AND GUCK.
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