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Quote (terraricca @ May 03 2010,18:49) Quote (JustAskin @ May 04 2010,10:32) When I post Scriptural posting you spew filth over it. Should i dish up God's truth for you to ridicule in front of others. Not that you have EVER prevailed but just run off and hide till the posts have rolled over then you come back like nothing had happened. If you truly been learning for 30 years the you are right that there there is NOTHING for you to learn – Because you CAN't learn – you are a block of granite stuck in a windswept wilderness far from civilisation of God and men.
No matter what Scriptural truth you are shown it means nothing. Jack, he can't even walk straight – You openly claims that Jesus is less than God in one place and then clams he – Jesus is God in another and you, all you want to do is have philosphical battles with people and that means simply refuting anything that anyone says – no matter what it is they say.
I'm off to bed (No you're not – you are running away…, er no, really. its 23:25hrs. See i told you more excuses – oh well, as you like it , as shakespeare wrote. shakespeare didn't write that it was francis bacon and i got philo proof in strongers concordance from 1086 bc written in, er, Granite…by a Neanderthal )
gn.
JAdo you remember what i told you many weeks ago ,about the result you would end up with, if you go with either TT or WJ
for discussion.there is a point to break conversation ,connection,they reject the scriptures as a whole,like Paul says they are trouble makers.
TTrouble makers are the ones that claim scripture is not scripture!
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2010,18:17) Hi WJ,
Did you mean ECONOMICAL?I realise two formulations exist of your manmade god to try and resolve inherent conflicts.
NHBut that also if you like!
WJ
Hi WJ:
You say:
Quote
Trinitarians do not believe the Holy Spirit is a seperate being.And so, then what do you believe relative to the Holy Spirit?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote It’s obvious that the definition of “a trinity” varies doesn't it? As does your interpretation of the text WJ.
Quote I will say again, I am not trying to prove that Matt 28:19 itself proves the Ecumenical Trinity but in fact have claimed over and over again that the Trinity is derived from all scriptures as a whole. Darwin claims the same thing about evolution, same concept, different subject.
Quote Many believe there are three spoken of in Matt 28:19, yet they are not equal which fits the definition of a “triad”, trinity. Many believe it does not WJ, many believe that triad worship is not true worship, many others believe the same as you do, only using different names and text. If anything WJ, understand this.
Quote That is my contention.
Which brings mostly discord, WJ.Quote But you think that you can force your model on the text when in reality your model is not the definition of the Ecumenical Trinity is it? WJ, Where do you see signs of force? The only thing I force in my life, is at times getting up for work in the morning, other than that there's not much else.
Quote Your point is circular. Your is triangular*………?
Hi WJ:
In the YLT Matthew 28:19:
Quote Mat 28:19having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them — to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days — till the full end of the age.Notice what is in Parenthesis. Does this not mean that it was added by someone to add clarity?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2010,10:27) Quote (princess of the king @ May 03 2010,17:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2010,08:24) Quote Yes it was translated as “kyrios” which is translated in English as “Lord”. Here is something to think about Mike, the word 'kyrios' Lord is found in the NT about 748 times and almost invariably it is in reference to Jesus. Including scriptures like this… Point is null and void, for this is not applied to Matthew 28.19. Dishonest weights and measures.
Show me how it is dishonest!Quote (princess of the king @ May 03 2010,17:27) Quote The NT interprets the Old. Without the old, you would never believe the new.
So all those NT Bibles that are printed are not the inspired word of God?Thats a strange claim for someone who doesn't believe in the authenticity of the Canon, don't you think?
Quote (princess of the king @ May 03 2010,17:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2010,12:50) You have no right to claim any of it as Gods word since you believe it is corrupted!
For you to blindly believe that the canonized text has not been tampered with by your church father, then you have no right to preach the word.
Straw man! See above! When you can prove your claim then you might have a point. So why don't you try to prove that Matt 28:19 was added again.
BTW it is those who do not believe the scriptures that are blind!
WJ
Wj,You cannot number an occurrence in the text to use as proof, when you do not apply the same concept to all text you present as proof.
Dishonest weights and measures. There you go, shown.
Wj, so you believe the old should be done away with?
Why don't you show me another text that has the same as Mat 28.19.
Well, I tend to have to wear my glasses at times when my eyes get a little weak, mostly when I more admin to do then field work, other than that, my eyesight is just fine.
My glasses however are not rose colored, with binders on.
Have a good night/day WJ. Take care of yourself.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2010,09:21) My response is the scriptures do speak of a trinity, and now in order to add validity to your statement you are even denying what a trinity is defined as… American Heritage Dictionary
A group consisting of three closely related members. Also called triunity.merriam-webster
not capitalized : a group of three closely related persons or things –Cambridge
a group of three things or peopleTrinitarians are not claiming that Matt 28:19 by itself proves the Biblical Trinity that we believe, but only that a trinity existed and Jesus and the Apostles spoke of it.
The truth is many of you believe in a trinity, the question again is about their respective nature and ontology. The Ats deny the equality of the qualities and attributes shared among the three.
WJ
Hi WJ,Wow, have you been busy answering everyone!
So you are only saying that Matt 28:19 mentions them all together? And says nothing about them being equal Gods? Well okay then. They are all mentioned together at Jesus' baptism too. And Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are mentioned together many times. So like I asked before, what exactly do you think Matt 28:19 proves?
You said:
Quote Trinitarians are not claiming that Matt 28:19 by itself proves the Biblical Trinity that we believe, but only that a trinity existed and Jesus and the Apostles spoke of it. Like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
You said:
Quote The truth is many of you believe in a trinity, the question again is about their respective nature and ontology. The Ats deny the equality of the qualities and attributes shared among the three. Yep, just like the Scriptures teach.
peace and love,
mikeWJ
your problem is to be a lawyer and a linguist,and a sales man ,and a great politician,and above all a preacher of truth ,,,,,how can that be
?????/Hi WJ,
You said:
Quote God of God does not mean Jesus had a beginning. I believe it says “FROM” God. Is the Almighty Father “FROM” God? Is He “OF” God?
You said:
Quote If so then the Holy Spirit which is “Of God” and proceeds from God would have had a beginning. Do you believe the Holy Spirit had a beginning? Was there a time the Holy Spirit was not with the Father? Was there a time the Holy Spirit did not exist? I don't know, do you? The Holy Spirit is a part of God, not a separate person in your godhead. Whether it was always an “appendage” of God, I don't think the Bible specifies, does it?
You said:
Quote The Nicene creed in its earliest rendering in which Eusebius was a prominant supporter of, also reads…. But those who say: “There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'“—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.
Yet in his letter that you quoted, Eusebius mentioned none of this, did he? Maybe he wasn't so much of a supporter as you think. There is nothing in his letter to imply a trinity god.
You said:
Quote Don't just quote part of it Mike for it also reads… “light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of the same substance with the Father“
That was in my quote, WJ.
Quote This says he is “True God from True God”, begotten, “NOT MADE“. If you are going to argue for the Creed then you should know that obviously their definition of begotten is not the same as yours.
Okay. Tell me what begotten means in the creed. Does it sound like from the wording that he was “given a title or position of begotten”? Or is it like Lightenup says. “Begotten” is a nicer way of saying “brought into existence” than plain old “created” or “made”. Maybe it means, like Jack says, “lonely”. He was lonely, not made.
Don't you see that the wording implies a beginning, even though they later add a disclaimer? Look at it: “begotten, NOT made”. It doesn't sound like they thought he didn't have a beginning, they just wanted to specify that it was a more noble beginning than being “made”.
You said:
Quote The point of the creeds was to settle the battle between the Arians and the Trinitarians that did not believe Jesus was God but rather one of the creation. Yet Jesus says he is the beginning of the creation of God. And Paul says Jesus is the “firstborn of all creation”.
WJ, I am amazed that someone of your intelligence has been too blinded to see that your whole doctrine is flawed right from the jump. First, you have to disregard the nature of things as we know it to think that a son did not come from his father, but is the same being. Then, you have to believe that, for some crazy reason, Almighty God stops being God for a while, then dies, then is Almighty God again, but only for a while, then he will not be Almighty God again. How in the world can anybody believe this nonsense? It is beyond me.
WJ, Is the Father FROM of OF God?
And you never answered about the throne wording. We know there are two thrones, yet John says, “the throne of God and of the Lamb”. You imply this kind of wording in Matt means only one name. Does John mean only one throne?
peace and love,
mikeWJ,
Can I, Just Askin, mind you, offer Sanctuary from your opposers – Is there a Sanctuary City nearby?
Cain you run there quickly for your own safety?
T, brother, I AM WJ as his reflection – When He speaks False I reflect back Truth. For this reason he cannot prevail. Has he ONCE prevailed against me – Show me – NOT ONCE because he cannot … He can only defeat Himself – and then he releases me from Him, See it.
How can you say, don't talk to him?
Now concerning TT, Now you can say don't speak – Mikeboll's got him teathered.
You see what a teathered wild animal does – how he rages and tangles himself in the net – Mike has him tagged.
Quote (942767 @ May 03 2010,21:02) Hi WJ: You say:
Quote
Trinitarians do not believe the Holy Spirit is a seperate being.And so, then what do you believe relative to the Holy Spirit?
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyYou know what I believe.
Is this a diversionary tactic or are you sincere?
We have had this conversation.
WJ
Quote (942767 @ May 03 2010,21:14) Hi WJ: In the YLT Matthew 28:19:
Quote Mat 28:19having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them — to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days — till the full end of the age.Notice what is in Parenthesis. Does this not mean that it was added by someone to add clarity?
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyPlease explain what you might think is being clarified, because I do not see a difference!
WJ
Hi POK
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2010,18:15) It’s obvious that the definition of “a trinity” varies doesn't it? Quote (princess of the king @ May 03 2010,21:12)
As does your interpretation of the text WJ.
True!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2010,18:15) I will say again, I am not trying to prove that Matt 28:19 itself proves the Ecumenical Trinity but in fact have claimed over and over again that the Trinity is derived from all scriptures as a whole. Quote (princess of the king @ May 03 2010,21:12) Darwin claims the same thing about evolution, same concept, different subject.
Yea and Satan can appear as an angel of light, so your point is?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2010,18:15) Many believe there are three spoken of in Matt 28:19, yet they are not equal which fits the definition of a “triad”, trinity. Quote (princess of the king @ May 03 2010,21:12) Many believe it does not WJ, many believe that triad worship is not true worship, many others believe the same as you do, only using different names and text. If anything WJ, understand this.
Believe me I do understand this, that is why I believe ATs do not accept text like Matt 28:19 because it contradicts their theology. Trinitarians accept the whole council of God found in the scriptures! We do not have cases of white out in our closets.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2010,18:15) That is my contention. Quote (princess of the king @ May 03 2010,21:12) Which brings mostly discord, WJ.
Circular, because discord is a two edged sword isn’t it POK? The majority of Christendom is Trinitarian so the discord is caused by those who went out from among us!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2010,18:15) But you think that you can force your model on the text when in reality your model is not the definition of the Ecumenical Trinity is it? Quote (princess of the king @ May 03 2010,21:12)
WJ, Where do you see signs of force?
You believe it is an addition to the MSS and think it should be removed, so I see that as a violent attack on the inspiration of the text. Violence is forceful and the violent often do not even realize it!Quote (princess of the king @ May 03 2010,21:12) The only thing I force in my life, is at times getting up for work in the morning, other than that there's not much else.
I doubt that unless you don't have kids or pets.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2010,18:15) Your point is circular. Quote (princess of the king @ May 03 2010,21:12)
Your is triangular*………?
Good one!Have a nice day!
WJ
POK
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2010,10:27) Quote (princess of the king @ May 03 2010,17:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2010,08:24) Quote Yes it was translated as “kyrios” which is translated in English as “Lord”. Here is something to think about Mike, the word 'kyrios' Lord is found in the NT about 748 times and almost invariably it is in reference to Jesus. Including scriptures like this… Point is null and void, for this is not applied to Matthew 28.19. Dishonest weights and measures.
Show me how it is dishonest!Quote (princess of the king @ May 03 2010,17:27) Quote The NT interprets the Old. Without the old, you would never believe the new.
So all those NT Bibles that are printed are not the inspired word of God?That’s a strange claim for someone who doesn't believe in the authenticity of the Canon, don't you think?
Quote (princess of the king @ May 03 2010,17:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2010,12:50) You have no right to claim any of it as Gods word since you believe it is corrupted!
For you to blindly believe that the canonized text has not been tampered with by your church father, then you have no right to preach the word.
Straw man! See above! When you can prove your claim then you might have a point. So why don't you try to prove that Matt 28:19 was added again.BTW it is those who do not believe the scriptures that are blind!
WJ
Quote (princess of the king @ May 03 2010,21:25) Wj, You cannot number an occurrence in the text to use as proof, when you do not apply the same concept to all text you present as proof. Dishonest weights and measures. There you go, shown.
Who says? One scripture is as valid as a 1000 or it is not equally inspired, right?Quote (princess of the king @ May 03 2010,21:25)
Wj, so you believe the old should be done away with?
Is this question a diversion to my answer? No of course not, but do I need the whole Bible to have the inspired word of God? Men are saved everyday through the knowledge of one scripture. I do not believe there were only 66 inspired books, however I believe in the authenticity of the 66.Quote (princess of the king @ May 03 2010,21:25)
Why don't you show me another text that has the same as Mat 28.19.
If I did you wouldn’t believe.And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. John 16:31
If you do not believe Jesus own words in Matt 28:19, well….
There is only one scripture that says “God is a Spirit” yet we know there are thousands that allude to that truth. Do you have to have more than one scripture to believe it?
Quote (princess of the king @ May 03 2010,21:25) Well, I tend to have to wear my glasses at times when my eyes get a little weak, mostly when I more admin to do then field work, other than that, my eyesight is just fine. My glasses however are not rose colored, with binders on. .
But it seems your glasses are tinted when it comes to Matt 28:19 aren’t they?Quote (princess of the king @ May 03 2010,21:25)
Have a good night/day WJ. Take care of yourself.
You do the same.WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ May 04 2010,08:35) T, brother, I AM WJ as his reflection – When He speaks False I reflect back Truth. For this reason he cannot prevail. Has he ONCE prevailed against me – Show me – NOT ONCE because he cannot … He can only defeat Himself – and then he releases me from Him, See it. How can you say, don't talk to him?
Now concerning TT, Now you can say don't speak – Mikeboll's got him teathered.
You see what a teathered wild animal does – how he rages and tangles himself in the net – Mike has him tagged.
Blessed are ye, when men (JA) shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Matt 5:11Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2010,21:38) WorshippingJesus,May wrote:My response is the scriptures do speak of a trinity, and now in order to add validity to your statement you are even denying what a trinity is defined as…
American Heritage Dictionary
A group consisting of three closely related members. Also called triunity.merriam-webster
not capitalized : a group of three closely related persons or things –Cambridge
a group of three things or peopleTrinitarians are not claiming that Matt 28:19 by itself proves the Biblical Trinity that we believe, but only that a trinity existed and Jesus and the Apostles spoke of it.
The truth is many of you believe in a trinity, the question again is about their respective nature and ontology. The Ats deny the equality of the qualities and attributes shared among the three.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2010,21:38) Hi WJ, Wow, have you been busy answering everyone!
Yea, I think I understand some of what Jesus must have felt when the Pharisees and the Sadducees and the unbelieving Jews came against him. Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2010,21:38) So you are only saying that Matt 28:19 mentions them all together?
No, but it mentions three which are a trinity, right Mike, which completely nullifies your claim that there is not even a hint of the Trinity in the Bible? Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2010,21:38) And says nothing about them being equal Gods? Well okay then.
Equal Gods? It is you that believes there is more than one God.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2010,21:38) They are all mentioned together at Jesus' baptism too. And Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are mentioned together many times. So like I asked before, what exactly do you think Matt 28:19 proves?
Well it doesn’t prove there is not a hint of the Trinity in the Bible, does it Mike? I have already answered you. Go back and read my opening post. I know what Jack means when he says you must have a comprehension problem for you ask questions then when you are given answers you just ask the same question again. Is it that you don’t like the answer or maybe you cannot refute it so somehow you think if you ask it again you will get a different answer? This seems to be a characteristic of the JWs. David does this all the time. Hello!!!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2010,17:21) Trinitarians are not claiming that Matt 28:19 by itself proves the Biblical Trinity that we believe, but only that a trinity existed and Jesus and the Apostles spoke of it. Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2010,21:38) Like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
Nope, God is Spirit and there is only “One Spirit” how many do you have living in you Mike? Is the Father in you? Is Jesus in you? Is the Holy Spirit in you?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2010,17:21) The truth is many of you believe in a trinity, the question again is about their respective nature and ontology. The Ats deny the equality of the qualities and attributes shared among the three. Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2010,21:38) Yep, just like the Scriptures teach.
Really, you haven’t proven that, remember! What attribute does the Father have that Jesus and the Holy Spirit do not?Attribute
something attributed as belonging to a person, thing, group, etc.; a quality, character, characteristic, or property: i.e. Sensitivity is one of his attributes.WJ
Hi WJ,
Defending man's doctrines does not ascribe any nobility or martyrdom to you.
Come back to truth.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 05 2010,05:23) Quote (JustAskin @ May 04 2010,08:35) T, brother, I AM WJ as his reflection – When He speaks False I reflect back Truth. For this reason he cannot prevail. Has he ONCE prevailed against me – Show me – NOT ONCE because he cannot … He can only defeat Himself – and then he releases me from Him, See it. How can you say, don't talk to him?
Now concerning TT, Now you can say don't speak – Mikeboll's got him teathered.
You see what a teathered wild animal does – how he rages and tangles himself in the net – Mike has him tagged.
Blessed are ye, when men (JA) shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Matt 5:11
WJthis quote of Mt 5;11
is only for thr righteous in Christ not for trinitatiansQuote (terraricca @ May 04 2010,15:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 05 2010,05:23) Quote (JustAskin @ May 04 2010,08:35) T, brother, I AM WJ as his reflection – When He speaks False I reflect back Truth. For this reason he cannot prevail. Has he ONCE prevailed against me – Show me – NOT ONCE because he cannot … He can only defeat Himself – and then he releases me from Him, See it. How can you say, don't talk to him?
Now concerning TT, Now you can say don't speak – Mikeboll's got him teathered.
You see what a teathered wild animal does – how he rages and tangles himself in the net – Mike has him tagged.
Blessed are ye, when men (JA) shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Matt 5:11
WJthis quote of Mt 5;11
is only for thr righteous in Christ not for trinitatians
tGod sees the heart and he knows them that are his!
When someone attacks or falsly accuses a believer in Jesus, then he has become an enemy of the Gospel of Christ and is influenced by the accuser of the brethren!
WJ
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