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Marty said:
Quote No, water baptism for a Born again Christian has nothing to do with an Old Testament ritual.
Marty,Again I must ask you what Bible you are reading. The apostles were performing John's baptism (Acts 11:16). John was the LAST of the old covenant prophets.
After Peter received the vision that God had cleansed all races of men Peter recalled the word of the Lord
Quote 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
After this there was a shift in Peter's thinking regarding water baptism. Before he mandated it in the name of Jesus. Now he appeals to the people and THEY allow Cornelius and his house to be baptized with water. Then it says that Peter 'prearranged them in order' to be baptized. Peter did not mandate that Cornelius and his house be baptized. The Greek word 'protasso' means 'to prearrange in order.' Peter allowed them to be baptized and arranged it as a DEMONSTRATION that all races of men are now accepted into the covenant.From that time and onward the apostles baptized with the Holy Spirit only. The traditional view regarding water baptism is an offense to the cross and it denies that all races of men are NOW ceremonially clean before God. Hebrews 6 says that if we lay that foundation again we “crucify the Son of God afresh and put Him to an open shame.” Water baptism was a part of that foundation.
The bathing ritual has been done away. Praise God!
YOU MUST PROVE THAT JESUS COMMANDED WATER BAPTISM IN ORDER TO PROVE THAT THERE IS A DISCONNECT BETWEEN WHAT JESUS SAID AND WHAT THE APOSTLES DID.
YOU HAVE NO BASIS IN THE MSS. OR IN NEW TESTAMENT TEACHING REGARDING WATER BAPTISM THAT MATTHEW 28:19 IS NOT AUTHENTIC. THERE IS NO DISCONNECT BETWEEN WHAT JESUS SAID AND WHAT THE APOSTLES DID.
Jack
Hi Keith and Jack:
Using the below listed scripture as a premise:
Quote 2 John 1:9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. Quote 1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?Quote 1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?Quote 2 Co 6:16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Quote John 17:21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2011,07:16) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,14:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2011,06:29) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,12:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2011,05:52) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,12:30) Hi WJ, What is an “Arian” buddy?
ED
To put it simple, an Arian was a follower of “Arius” who in the RCC rejected that Jesus was God.WJ
Hi WJ,I'm NOT a follower of Arius; but of “Christ”.
The definition of “Christian” is: a follower of Christ.
I would appreciate it if you desisted from starting rumors!
EdYour beliefs line up with Arius when it comes to Jesus being God.
Sorry, but that means you are in the Arian camp which has been waring against Trinitarianism with no results for centuries.
WJ
Hi WJ,How exactly have I waring been against Trinitarianism? …know your “FACTS”
This is more evidence of how you 'spin' the facts; No?
EdYou claim you are “a bridge” but you always side with the “anti-Jesus is God crowd.
That is the facts!
WJ
Hi WJ,Why can you NOT SEE how you continually 'spin' the facts?
I said: “There is a bridge between two views.”AND YOU HAVE 'SPUN' THE FACTS TO…
Quote You claim you are “a bridge” Perhaps you are right, that I haven't taught you this FACT yet! (Click Here)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 13 2011,21:57) Marty said: Quote No, water baptism for a Born again Christian has nothing to do with an Old Testament ritual.
Marty,Again I must ask you what Bible you are reading. The apostles were performing John's baptism (Acts 11:16). John was the LAST of the old covenant prophets.
After Peter received the vision that God had cleansed all races of men Peter recalled the word of the Lord
Quote 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
After this there was a shift in Peter's thinking regarding water baptism. Before he mandated it in the name of Jesus. Now he appeals to the people and THEY allow Cornelius and his house to be baptized with water. Then it says that Peter 'prearranged them in order' to be baptized. Peter did not mandate that Cornelius and his house be baptized. The Greek word 'protasso' means 'to prearrange in order.' Peter allowed them to be baptized and arranged it as a DEMONSTRATION that all races of men are now accepted into the covenant.From that time and onward the apostles baptized with the Holy Spirit only. The traditional view regarding water baptism is an offense to the cross and it denies that all races of men are NOW ceremonially clean before God. Hebrews 6 says that if we lay that foundation again we “crucify the Son of God afresh and put Him to an open shame.” Water baptism was a part of that foundation.
The bathing ritual has been done away. Praise God!
YOU MUST PROVE THAT JESUS COMMANDED WATER BAPTISM IN ORDER TO PROVE THAT THERE IS A DISCONNECT BETWEEN WHAT JESUS SAID AND WHAT THE APOSTLES DID.
YOU HAVE NO BASIS IN THE MSS. OR IN NEW TESTAMENT TEACHING REGARDING WATER BAPTISM THAT MATTHEW 28:19 IS NOT AUTHENTIC. THERE IS NO DISCONNECT BETWEEN WHAT JESUS SAID AND WHAT THE APOSTLES DID.
Jack
Hi Jack:Let's take a look at what the following scriptures state:
Quote Act 10:34 ¶ Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said,Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Act 10:36 The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
Act 10:37 That word, , ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
Act 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, [even] to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid(the Greek Word is Kolyo, which according to Stong's Concordance means; (1.To hinder, prevent, forbid, 2. To withhold a thing from anyone, 3.To deny or refuse one a thing) water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 AND HE COMMANDED THEM TO BE BAPITZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Jack, you are going to mislead people if you continue to teach that water baptism is no longer necessary. It represents a very important symbol.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty said:
Quote Prior to Cornelius and his group receiving the Holy Ghost, the gospel was preached primarily to the Jews, and the procedure had been when they believed the gospel, they were baptized in water, and then they received the Holy Ghost. But Cornelius and his group received the Holy Ghost when they believed the gospel prior to being baptized in water.
Exactly! Cornelius and his house received the Holy Spirit BEFORE being baptized which indicates that baptism was no longer a requirement. Peter alowed Cornelius and his house to be baptized as a demonstration that all races of men had now been accepted into the covenant.Peter did not “command” them to be baptized. The Greek word is “protasso.” I have already indicated that it means “to prearrange in order.”
There were no more water baptisms after Cornelius and his household. Baptism was EXCLUSIVELY with the Spirit. In chapter 16 it simply says that the Cotinthians were “baptized” without any mention of water. Paul said nothing about water baptism in reference to them in his epistles. He said that they were baptized by “one Spirit.”
You keep evading the fact that after Peter baptized Cornelius he testified that he recalled the word of the Lord when He said, “John indeed baptized with water. But you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.“
Baptisms with the Spirit had occurred before Cornelius as you have testified. So why did Jesus' words have special meaning to Peter AFTERWARDS?
You still have not answered this question: Why is the bathing ritual still necessary if God has CLEANSED all races of men? I am growing older waiting for you to reply.
Marty cited Acts 10:37-43 and then said:
Quote And so, here we see that the commandment was to preach forgiveness and remission of sins in his name, and not in the Tri-une formula of Matthew 28:19.
How does Acts 10:37-43 prove that water baptism continued after Cornelius? Even your own commentary omits a reference to water baptism.
Quote And so, here we see that the commandment was to preach forgiveness and remission of sins in his name, and not in the Tri-une formula of Matthew 28:19.
Exactly! I have ALWAYS maintained that the apostles baptized not in the Tri-une name because Jesus NEVER commanded water baptism. He said, “make disciples of all nations baptizing them.” The word “baptizing” is a participle which modifies the action of the noun “make disciples.” To make disciples IS to baptize them into the Tri-une name. This has nothing to do with water or with Spirit baptism.Jack
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2011,22:32) It's really not that important to your “cause” because it proves nothing.
Thats a joke Mike!If it proves nothing then why all of the doubt and contention that it is not scripture?
The fact that Jesus himself commissions the Apostles to “Baptise” in the “Singular” shared name by all three with the definite article is a big blow against the anti-trins.
For that scripture itself is proof that “a Trinity” exist in the Bible and destroys the claim that the anti Jesus is God crowd makes that there is “no Trinity” found in the Bible.
This scripture “unambiguously” proves the unity and oneness of the Three!
Blow it off if you like Mike but it is a strike against you and your false doctrine for it is a Trinitarian proof text that can't be denied and won't go away!
WJ
Quote (942767 @ Mar. 12 2011,19:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2011,05:23) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 12 2011,11:15) You did not answer my question, and apparently, you can't read, because the scripture states specifically that “the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.
Yes MartyBut when are you going to answer my questions?
Jesus is the Son OF God, does that mean he is the Father?
Then why do you assume that the “Spirit of God” is the Father?
It is you that cannot read scripture and can't answer simple questions like “did the Father and Jesus send the Father?”
Does the Father take from Jesus and give to us?
Can the Father speak on his own?
Does the Father pray to himself?
These are all characteristics of the Holy Spirit that proceeds from the Father and Jesus.
There are many scriptures that show he is not the Father Marty, but you choose to stick your head in the sand and deny they exist like you do Mattew 28:19.
Quote (942767 @ Mar. 12 2011,11:15) ….apparently, you can't read, because the scripture states specifically that “the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God..
Who are you to tell me about reading scripture since you reject scriptures like Matthew 28:19 as being scripture?
WJ
Hi Keith:I have already answered your questions, and so, go back and study what I said by the scriptures and you will have the answers to those questions.
I haven't assumed anything, but have used the scriptures to show you the truth, and so, I will post the following scripture below to emphasize that there are not three but two.
Quote 2 John 1:9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyThere you go quoting scripture from what you believe is a corrupt book!
WJ
Quote (942767 @ Mar. 13 2011,08:54) Hi Keith and Jack: Using the below listed scripture as a premise:
Quote 2 John 1:9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. Quote 1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?Quote 1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?Quote 2 Co 6:16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Quote John 17:21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyThere you go again quoting scriptures from what you believe to be a corrupt book!
I don't trust any of your interpretations or anything that you say or try to teach about the Holy Scriptures because you doubt they are authentic!
Why should anyone trust what you teach from the Bible when you say some scripture has been added or altered?
WJ
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 14 2011,03:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2011,07:16) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,14:12) WorshippingJesus,Mar. wrote:[quote=Ed J,Mar. 12 2011,12:59]
Hi WJ,How exactly have I waring been against Trinitarianism? …know your “FACTS”
This is more evidence of how you 'spin' the facts; No?
EdYou claim you are “a bridge” but you always side with the “anti-Jesus is God crowd.
That is the facts!
WJ
Hi WJ,Why can you NOT SEE how you continually 'spin' the facts?
I said: “There is a bridge between two views.”AND YOU HAVE 'SPUN' THE FACTS TO…
Quote You claim you are “a bridge” Perhaps you are right, that I haven't taught you this FACT yet! (Click Here)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi WJ,There you go again, 'spinning' the facts again, but this time toward Marty!
When are you going to realize that this is what you do?
You complain about attacking the person (ad homonis) instead of their position,
but this is REALLY YOUR WEAKNESS; isn't it? (Psalm 18:25-27 / James 1:24)Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2011,03:39) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 13 2011,08:54) Hi Keith and Jack: Using the below listed scripture as a premise:
Quote 2 John 1:9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. Quote 1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?Quote 1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?Quote 2 Co 6:16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Quote John 17:21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyThere you go again quoting scriptures from what you believe to be a corrupt book!
I don't trust any of your interpretations or anything that you say or try to teach about the Holy Scriptures because you doubt they are authentic!
Why should anyone trust what you teach from the Bible when you say some scripture has been added or altered?
WJ
Hi Keith:The only scripture that I have said has been altered is Matthew 28:19, and it surely does not line up with the scriptures that I have given you here, but go right ahead and teach what you want.
I have given you scripture to show you that the teaching that “The Holy Ghost is a Third Person of a Tri-une God” is a misunderstanding of scripture, and if you do not want to accept what the scriptures state, then that is between you and God. It is not my opinion. It is God's Word.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Mar. 15 2011,14:56)
The only scripture that I have said has been altered is Matthew 28:19, and it surely does not line up with the scriptures that I have given you here, but go right ahead and teach what you want.
MartyA little leaven leavens the Whole Lump.
Don't accuse me of not accepting all of the scriptures. That is a lie.
I believe all the scriptures you post are inspired and part of the Word of God.
My interpretation of them is not in conflict with the rest of scriptures but yours is.
Like I said why should I recieve any teaching from someone who claims the Bible is corrupt?
WJ
Hi WJ,
More of WJ's 'spin'
Marty doesn't claim the bible is (according to Kieth) corrupt?
Marty is only questioning Matthew 28:19 at this point.Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 15 2011,15:46) Hi WJ, More of WJ's 'spin'
Marty doesn't claim the bible is (according to Kieth) corrupt?
Marty is only questioning Matthew 28:19 at this point.
EDMatthew 28:19 is part of the Bible, so he is questioning the authenticity of the Bible and the scripture!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 15 2011,10:31)
If it proves nothing then why all of the doubt and contention that it is not scripture?
Keith, I also doubt the Lamb was “slain from the founding of the world”. NETNotes gives a sensible and plausible explanation that this refers to the names of those who were written from the founding of the world in the book of life BELONGING TO the Lamb that was slain.This isn't a “trinity” argument, is it? But I would still argue that NETNotes offers a much more preferred and sensible translation of the words.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 15 2011,10:31)
The fact that Jesus himself commissions the Apostles to “Baptise” in the “Singular” shared name by all three with the definite article is a big blow against the anti-trins.
No Keith. It's not a “big blow”, a “little blow”, or even a “faint breeze”. It says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about any “trinity Godhead” even if left as is.And you asserting that the “Singular shared name” is “Jesus Christ” only lessens the respect anyone here has for you. To think that the name of our “Trinity Godhead” was “Jesus, the anointed one OF God” is too much even for you, Keith.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 15 2011,10:31)
Blow it off if you like Mike
Done.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2011,08:12) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 15 2011,15:46) Hi WJ, More of WJ's 'spin'
Marty doesn't claim the bible is (according to Kieth) corrupt?
Marty is only questioning Matthew 28:19 at this point.
EDMatthew 28:19 is part of the Bible?
WJ
Hi WJ,Why yes it is.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2011,08:12) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 15 2011,15:46) Hi WJ, More of WJ's 'spin'
Marty doesn't claim the bible is (according to Kieth) corrupt?
Marty is only questioning Matthew 28:19 at this point.
EDMatthew 28:19 is part of the Bible, so he is questioning the authenticity of the Bible and the scripture!
WJ
Hi WJ,Your Post changed after I Posted, ain't that against the rules? (see my previous Post)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2011,08:12) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 15 2011,15:46) Hi WJ, More of WJ's 'spin'
Marty doesn't claim the bible is (according to Kieth) corrupt?
Marty is only questioning Matthew 28:19 at this point.
(((((((((((((((((((((((Edited back to WJ's original Post)))))))))))))))))))))
EDIsn't Matthew 28:19 part of the Bible?
WJ
Hi WJ,Why yes it is.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2011,07:25) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 15 2011,14:56)
The only scripture that I have said has been altered is Matthew 28:19, and it surely does not line up with the scriptures that I have given you here, but go right ahead and teach what you want.
MartyA little leaven leavens the Whole Lump.
Don't accuse me of not accepting all of the scriptures. That is a lie.
I believe all the scriptures you post are inspired and part of the Word of God.
My interpretation of them is not in conflict with the rest of scriptures but yours is.
Like I said why should I recieve any teaching from someone who claims the Bible is corrupt?
WJ
Hi Keith:If as you say:
Quote I believe all the scriptures you post are inspired and part of the Word of God. Then you will acknowledge that the scriptures I posted show that the Holy Ghost is not ''THE THIRD PERSON OF A TRI-UNE GOD”.
And because they do show this, I can be certain that Matthew 28:19 (The Tri-une formula) is not what Jesus said.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2011,12:37)
Then you will acknowledge that the scriptures I posted show that the Holy Ghost is not ''THE THIRD PERSON OF A TRI-UNE GOD”.And because they do show this, I can be certain that Matthew 28:19 (The Tri-une formula) is not what Jesus said.
Yes MartyYou have made it abundantly clear that you have rejected Jesus words over your misconceptions of the Apostles teachings and over the clear words of our Lord.
WJ
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