Matthew 28:19 authentic or not?

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 09 2011,10:47)

so until you provide answers to my questions you are just creating a diversion.

Pierre

Peirre

I don't care about your questions because you have rejected the scripture also.

Besides that I have answered your questions many times as well as Jack. All you have to do is go back and read the thread.

You are the one trying to create a diversion by making these post even though your questions have been answered.

Study and read for youself. I am not doing your research for you. If you can find something to add to the topic then please do so!

March 9, 2011 at 5:25 pm#334711

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2011,02:19)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 08 2011,09:43)

Hi Keith:

The scriptures state the the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God my Father. That is not my opinion but that is what the scripture posted below indicates:

Quote

1 Co 2:7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

You as a Trinitarian teach that the Holy Spirit is THE THIRD PERSON OF A TRI-UNE GOD.

If you have a scripture which states this, then we can continue this conversation otherwise you have no grounds for what you teach.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Ha Ha Marty

I have a scripture among many and Matt 28:19 is one of them. But you don't want to discuss them because it contradicts your doctrine.

You quote scripture you do not even understand…

Why didn't you address my questions about those scriptures Marty?

Here they are again…

If the Father sent himself then who is it that searches the deep things of God?

but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. “The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 2 Cor 2:10

Does the Father search himself?

If the Spirit is the Father then who is this…

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the “Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father“. Gal 4:6

Is the Father the Spirit that the Father sent crying “Abba” Father in us?

Does the Father cry “Abba” to himself?

You will be considered a Heretic for claiming the scriptures are corrupt you know that don't you?

No Keith:

You do not have a scripture which states that the Holy Spirit is “The Third Person of a Tri-une God”.

You may interpret the scriptures to mean that, but there is no scripture which states that, if so, produce it and you will have a case. Otherwise, you are just giving your opinion based on your interpretation of the scriptures.

The scriptures state that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God my Father, and so, that is the end of this discussion.

Yes, I know “Trinitarians” used to burn people like me at the stake if someone did not believe in their doctrine although they cannot even explain the doctrine, and they do not have any scripture which states what they believe, and today, they want to insist that if you do not believe their doctrine you cannot be a member of their church.

Well, I am a member of the Lord's church, and God is my Father, and so, he said: “Blessed are you when men shall revile you and persecute you and say all manner of evil falsely because your are serving me”, and he also said: “the time will come when those who kill you will think that they are doing God a service”.

I am happy because I love him and he loves me, and I love you and desire God's very best for you.

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 9, 2011 at 5:46 pm#334712

Participant

Marty said;

Quote

I am happy because I love him and he loves me

Marty,

How can you love God when you contradict His Son? His son said, “In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

You white this out of your Bible and then say that you love God. How can you love God when you put your thoughts above His inspired word?

Jack

March 9, 2011 at 5:48 pm#334713

Participant

WJ said:

Quote

“LET IT BE KNOWN THAT MIKEBOLL64 OFFICIALLY DENYS MATTHEW 28:19 AS BEING THE WORDS OF JESUS!”

Keith,

The whole world of the Internet has noted it.

Jack

March 9, 2011 at 6:03 pm#334714

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 09 2011,11:25)

Wow Marty

Stop being hypocritical Marty and do some research of church history and you will see that many Trinitarians were killed by the Arians also. Athanasius was exiled by an Arian.

Now you claim that because we say you would be classified as a Heretic for denying the word of God that someone is going to kill you?

What a diversion! Why didn't you answer my questions about the scriptures I gave you?

One of them is your own proof text. Here they are again…

If the Father sent himself then who is it that searches the deep things of God?

but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. “The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 2 Cor 2:10

Does the Father search himself?

If the Spirit is the Father then who is this…

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the “Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father“. Gal 4:6

Is the Father the Spirit that the Father sent crying “Abba” Father in us?

Does the Father cry “Abba” to himself?

Please explain Marty!

March 9, 2011 at 6:12 pm#334715

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 09 2011,11:25)

The scriptures state that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God my Father, and so, that is the end of this discussion.

Right Marty

“Spirit OF God”, just like “Son OF God”, is Jesus the Father?

Why would you say the Spirit OF God is the Father?

March 9, 2011 at 6:25 pm#334716

http://myredeemer.org/foundation/baptism/paul.shtml

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 08 2011,18:42)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 08 2011,07:47)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 08 2011,13:19)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 08 2011,06:04)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 08 2011,05:42)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 08 2011,04:26)

Marty said:

Quote

I do not believe that Matthew 28:19 is what Jesus stated because the Apostles did not baptize anyone by the Tri-une formula.

Marty,

Prove that the Acts narratives aren't corrupt. Peter had to be corrected on a couple of things both by God and by Paul. So maybe Peter was in error in using the “in the name of Jesus” formula. Hey, if you're going to cast doubt on the authenticity of certain portions of the scripture, then let's go all the way my man.

Jack

Hi Jack:

The Apostle Paul also baptized in the name of Jesus.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Paul baptized only a few Jews. Baptism was not for the Gentiles.

Paul himself was not baptized with water. He was baptized in the house of Ananias by standing up and putting off his sins.

http://www.biblestudying.net/baptism6.html

Jesus did not command water baptism. He never taught a doctrine of water baptism before the Great Commission. Why would He do so at the end?

Water baptism along with all other external regulations was on its way out by the time the book of Hebrews was written about ad68. (Hebrews 6:1-3; 9:6-10).

Jack

Hi Jack:

Were Cornelius and those with him whom the Apostle Peter commanded to be baptized Gentiles?

Jesus said: “Thus it becometh “US” to fulfill all righteousness”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

if any reside in Israel does he not have to be treated has he was an Israelite ??
also did not all have been baptized in Noah ??
and many were converts in Israel.
and Peter reverse the procedure first the spirit then the water baptism?(repentance)

Pierre

Hi Pierre:

I am not sure what exactly you are trying to say by your questions:

Cornelius and those with them were the first gentile believers who received the Holy Ghost, but no, Peter did not reverse the procedure. It is Jesus who baptized the believers with Holy Ghost. Sometimes believers receive the Holy Ghost prior to being baptized in water, and sometimes they receive the Holy Ghost after they are baptized in water. Salvation is based on someone comeing to God with a repentant heart by Faith in what He has done for them in the person of His Son and His Christ. Baptism is a work showing that one has repented and has made Jesus Christ their Lord, and it symbolizes their union with Jesus in his death, burial, and resurrection.

In the days of Noah, eight people were saved by the Ark from the judgment of God. The ark of safety in our time is the body of Christ.

This is what the Apostle Peter wrote:

Quote

1 Peter 3:18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

so it is possible to baptized and not receiving the holy spirit ?

I mean power not the words that were transmited by the holyspirit those were the scriptures,and understanding.

Pierre

March 9, 2011 at 6:27 pm#334717

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 10 2011,09:58)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 09 2011,10:47)

so until you provide answers to my questions you are just creating a diversion.

Pierre

Peirre

I don't care about your questions because you have rejected the scripture also.

Besides that I have answered your questions many times as well as Jack. All you have to do is go back and read the thread.

You are the one trying to create a diversion by making these post even though your questions have been answered.

Study and read for youself. I am not doing your research for you. If you can find something to add to the topic then please do so!

you never explain what that scripture means Mat 28;19

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 2 Cor 2:10

what do they say and mean?

Pierre

March 9, 2011 at 6:44 pm#334718

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 09 2011,12:27)

you never explain what that scripture means Mat 28;19

Peirre

Have you read all the threads on Matt 28:19?

Do so on your own time. The answers are there more than once by Jack and I.

Why should I waste my time explaining again what Matt 29:19 says to someone like yourself that doesn't believe it is scripture?

March 9, 2011 at 7:31 pm#334719

Participant

Marty said to Pierre:

Quote

This is what the Apostle Peter wrote:

1 Peter 3:18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Hi Pierre,

I noticed that Marty is avoiding my evidence on baptism. Note TWO things regarding what Peter said which Marty has overlooked.

1. Noah and his family were saved by water though it was not applied to their persons. This was BEFORE Moses who instituted the bathing ritual by which water was to be applied to the person. The passage of the Israelites through the Red Sea is another example of baptism without water being applied. They were “baptized” by passing through the Red Sea on DRY land.

2. Note that Peter said that the “baptism” of Noah and his family was a “FIGURE” of the baptism which now saves. In other words, the baptism which “now saves” has nothing to do with water. Again, though water was involved in the case of Noah and his family it was NOT applied to their persons. The Mosaic bathing ritual called “baptism” required that water actually be applied to the person.

Marty has failed to show that Jesus commanded water baptism in Mattthew 28:19. There were “various” baptisms from Moses through Jesus and the Apostles (Heb. 9:10). But there is only ONE baptism now and it has nothing to do with water.

March 9, 2011 at 11:25 pm#334720

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 10 2011,12:31)

Marty said to Pierre:

Quote

This is what the Apostle Peter wrote:

1 Peter 3:18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Hi Pierre,

I noticed that Marty is avoiding my evidence on baptism. Note TWO things regarding what Peter said which Marty has overlooked.

my big point on baptism is that no one can be saved by a ritual of water in Christ sacrifice.

but by immersing himself in the word and spirit of Christ that will save the one who does that.

following the words of live ,

Pierre

March 10, 2011 at 12:08 am#334721

http://ichthys.com/mail-water%20baptism.htm

Participant

TO ALL:

The anti-Trins cannot prove that Jesus commanded water baptism.

Quote

This brings us to the consideration of Matthew 28:19-20, which is really the crux of the entire issue. For, no matter what we might feel about it, even if water-baptism does not seem to make theological sense, if our Lord were really commanding us to be water-baptized, that would certainly settle the issue. In fact, that is not at all what this passage, an admittedly difficult one to interpret, really relates. What this passage actually commands is for us to “make disciples” (the only imperative in the Greek), that is, to teach mankind about Jesus Christ, how to come to Him and how to follow Him. The two participles (“baptizing” and “teaching”) are clearly instrumental in nature (i.e., they show the method of carrying out the order: “by baptizing” and “by teaching”). “Baptizing” and “teaching” therefore reflect the means to these two parts of the process, namely 1) entering into Christ, and 2) properly following Him thereafter. “Baptizing them into the Name of …” thus must refer to THE MEDIATION OF THE GOSPEL MESSAGE by which we all are baptized by the Spirit through faith into all three Persons of the Trinity (Rom.6:3; cf. Is.30:27), while “teaching them” clearly concerns the post-salvation process of growth and discipleship which is equally essential.[/b] Beyond all question, it is the baptism of the Spirit which places us into union with God, union with Christ – and it is the indwelling Holy Spirit which is the pledge of this (2Cor.1:21-22; Eph.1:13-14; 4:30). Water-baptism has nothing to do with either. Therefore, in my view, the main point behind the baptism referred to in Matthew 28:19 is the same as the one made in 1st Corinthians 12:13 where we are all “baptized into one Body (of Christ, His Person, His Name)

March 10, 2011 at 12:40 am#334722

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Mar. 09 2011,09:07)

I HAVE GIVEN SEVERAL BIBLICAL AND HISTORICAL EXAMPLES THAT BAPTISM OCCURRED WITHOUT WATER. NOW PROVE THAT JESUS WAS SPEAKING ABOUT WATER BAPTISM IN MATTHEW 28:19 MIKE!

How about YOU PROVE he wasn't.

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Mar. 09 2011,09:07)

YOUR ARGUMENT AGAINST THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE TRI-UNE NAME IN MATTHEW 28:19 IS LAME AND UNSCHOLARLY MIKE. YOUR ARGUMENT IS TOTALLY STUPID. NOT ALL AGREE WITH THE CATHOLICS THAT JESUS WAS SPEAKING ABOUT WATER BAPTISM.

There are sure a lot of scholars smarter than you who DO think he was talking about water baptism. Heck, KEITH is smarter than you, and HE thinks it's about water baptism. Can you PROVE it wasn't?

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Mar. 09 2011,09:07)

YOU LOSE MIKE! THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE TRI-UNE NAME IN THE HOLY WORD OF GOD STANDS!

Yeah, about that……………we know God's name is YHVH. We know God's Son's name is Jesus. And we know the Holy Spirit doesn't have a personal name because it's not a person.

SO JACK, WHAT EXACT SINGLE NAME WAS JESUS TELLING THEM TO BAPTISE IN?

You see Jack, the Apostles DID baptise in a single name, the name JESUS CHRIST.

Are you saying that the Father and the Holy Spirit share the name “Jesus Christ”? You do know what “christ” means, right?

Jack, I'm positive that as older mss are found, 28:19 will go the way of 1 John 5:8. Until then, you go ahead and keep it. But don't get too carried away with it, because even as it is, it says nothing to support a trinity Godhead.

mike

March 10, 2011 at 12:52 am#334723

http://ichthys.com/mail-water%20baptism.htm

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 10 2011,17:08)

TO ALL:

The anti-Trins cannot prove that Jesus commanded water baptism.

Quote

there are no tree persons in or out of that scripture,

the holy spirit in not a person and has no name that any one knows ,only is effects on people or things.

and there is only one holy spirit it is the one coming from God himself ,holy spirit is the will of God either in action by others or in influence trough knowledge.

Mat 28;19 was never explain by those holding on to it .

in the name,in the name, in the name ;witch names

why names are not mention??

Pierre

March 10, 2011 at 1:07 am#334724

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 08 2011,18:32)

So what do you say now Keith and Jack? Their “explanation scripture” turns out to be just one more scripture showing an Apostle baptising in the NAME OF JESUS, and those baptised receiving the Holy Spirit as a result. So their concern about it being “ALTOGETHER UNLIKELY” remains unresolved, doesn't it?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2011,09:31)

Mike

It doesn't matter what “one persons” opinion is.

:laugh: Yet you were jumping all over their opinion when you thought they had explained away the “ALTOGETHER UNLIKELY” part, weren't you? But now that you realize their explanation scripture is just another instance of an Apostle baptizing in the name of Jesus, you don't care anymore about their “ALTOGETHER UNLIKELY” opinion. Isn't that right, Keith?

Btw, I was expecting an apology for accusing me of leaving that part out when I didn't.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2011,09:31)

The fact is Matt 28:19 unlike other scriptures where there may be discussion over the textual variance or translations, Matt 28:19 is unambiguous and conclusive just like John 1:1 is!

Did you mean, “JUST LIKE 1 JOHN 5:8 is”? You are right that 1:1 is conclusive though. It is conclusive to anyone with a brain that a god who was with THE God could not possibly BE THE God he was with.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2011,09:31)

“LET IT BE KNOWN THAT MIKEBOLL64 OFFICIALLY DENYS MATTHEW 28:19 AS BEING THE WORDS OF JESUS!”

That's a bit overstated, don't you think? I don't quite “officially deny” it, but I do have major concerns that Jesus would have given the Apostles a specific command that not ONE of them ever followed. Don't you? If not, you should. People more learned than us have been considering the “ALTOGETHER UNLIKELYNESS” of this scripture for almost 2000 years, Keith.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2011,09:31)

Therefore who can believe anything that Mike trys to teach from scriptures since he believes that they are corrupt.

Now that statement is a flat out lie, Keith. First, we are not talking about scriptureS, with an “S”, but ONE scripture. And are you aware of other scriptures that were later found out to have been corrupted? I am. But that's a far cry from your general statement that Mike believes “THEY ARE CORRUPT”, don't you think?

Keith, I'll ask you what I asked Jack:

WHAT EXACTLY IS THIS “ONE NAME” THAT ENCOMPASSES FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT?

The Apostles DID baptize in one name, the name JESUS CHRIST. Do you think the Father and the Holy Spirit share the name JESUS CHRIST with the Son?

mike

March 10, 2011 at 3:02 am#334725

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 10 2011,04:03)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 09 2011,11:25)

Wow Marty

Stop being hypocritical Marty and do some research of church history and you will see that many Trinitarians were killed by the Arians also. Athanasius was exiled by an Arian.

Now you claim that because we say you would be classified as a Heretic for denying the word of God that someone is going to kill you?

What a diversion! Why didn't you answer my questions about the scriptures I gave you?

One of them is your own proof text. Here they are again…

If the Father sent himself then who is it that searches the deep things of God?

but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. “The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 2 Cor 2:10

Does the Father search himself?

If the Spirit is the Father then who is this…

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the “Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father“. Gal 4:6

Is the Father the Spirit that the Father sent crying “Abba” Father in us?

Does the Father cry “Abba” to himself?

Please explain Marty!

Hi Keith:

Do you have a scripture which states that the Holy Spirit is THE THIRD PERSON OF A TRI-UNE GOD?

Why don't you answer this question?

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 10, 2011 at 3:32 am#334726

Participant

Hi Keith:

You ask:

Quote

If the Father sent himself then who is it that searches the deep things of God?

but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. “The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 2 Cor 2:10

God sent His Spirit. The scripture states it so that you can understand it “but God has revealed it to us by His Spirit. The Spirit(His Spirit)searches all things, even the deep things of God”

The scripture also compares God's Spirit knowing the things of God to our spirit knowing our thoughts:

Quote

1 Co 2:11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Perhaps the following scriptures will give you understanding of Galatians 4:6:

Quote

Romans 8:11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Quote

Romans 8:14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 10, 2011 at 3:52 am#334727

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Mar. 09 2011,02:32)

Marty asked:

Quote

Hi Jack:

Were Cornelius and those with him whom the Apostle Peter commanded to be baptized Gentiles?

Jesus said: “Thus it becometh “US” to fulfill all righteousness”.

Marty,
Peter allowed Cornelius and his household to be baptized AFTER His vision that God had cleansed all men and AFTER the Holy Spirit had fallen upon them. Before this time Peter baptized Jews only.

Please note that it was AFTER Cornelius and his house were baptized that Peter recalled the word of Christ when He said, “John indeed baptized with water, but YOU shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 11:16).

After this Peter never baptized again. After the baptism of Cornelius and his house only Paul baptized by the Spirit just as Jesus promised. (Acts 16:15, 33; 18:8; 29:3-5).

I offer FOUR proofs that Paul's baptisms were not with water but by the Spirit:

1. There is no mention of water at all in any of Paul's baptisms after Peter baptized Cornelius and his house.

2. Paul explicitly commanded baptism by the Spirit in contrast to baptism by water (Acts 19:3-5).

3. Paul explicitly said that he was not called to baptize with water (I Corinthians 1:17).

4. Paul speaks only of Spirit baptism as the requisite in his epistles.

Explain how this fits with your view that Jesus commanded water baptism in Matthew 28:19. He indicated that He would be with them until the “end of the age.” The last persons to be baptized with water was Cornelius and his house. Was this when the “end of the age” occurred?

YOUR THREE-FOLD PREDICAMENT:

1. You have no manuscript inwhich the Tri-une name is absent in Matthew 28:19.

2. You have no proof that Jesus commanded water baptism in Matthew 28:19.

3. You have no proof that Jesus taught water baptism as a requirement before Matthew 28:19.

You lose your case Marty! You need a manuscript inwhich the Tri-une name is absent AND you need proof that Jesus commissioned His disciples to baptize with water. YOU HAVE NEITHER!

Jack

Hi Jack:

This is what the Apostle Paul said in context in 1 Co 1:

Quote

12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

He said that he baptized Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanas, and so he did baptize these, and by his statement that the Lord did not send him to baptize, he was sent to preach the gospel. Salvation is by Faith, and so, before anyone is baptized in water they must first hear and believe the gospel, and then they must repent.

And so, this is enough proof to show that you are mistaken relative to water baptism. If you have not been baptized and are a believer, this an act of obedience that all Christians should do.

And I do not have to have a manuscript that shows that Matthew 28:19 has been altered because the Holy Ghost is not a “Third Person of a Tri-une God”. The scripture plainly states that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and so that is enough proof for me that the Tri-une formula is not what Jesus said.

But I will ask you the same question that I asked Keith and that is: CAN YOU PRODUCE A SCRIPTURE THAT STATES THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS “THE THIRD PERSON OF A TRI-UNE GOD”?

If you can give me a scripture that says this, then you have a case, but if you can't, you are only giving me an opinion based on your interpretation of scripture.

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 10, 2011 at 2:10 pm#334728

Participant

Pierre said:

Quote

my big point on baptism is that no one can be saved by a ritual of water in Christ sacrifice.

but by immersing himself in the word and spirit of Christ that will save the one who does that.

following the words of live ,

Pierre

Pierre,

I almost totally agree with you. The only thing I disagree with is your suggestion that we must immerse ourselves. The sinner is always passive in baptism no matter what kind of baptism and there were “various” kinds of baptism (Heb. 9:10).

You are speaking about baptism in the classical sense of the term and this is the “baptizing” that Jesus was speaking about in Matthew 28:19. The word “baptizing” is a participle and in the Greek a participle is a verbal adjective. A verbal adjective modifies the action of a noun. Jesus commanded His disciples to “make disciples.” The participle in the phrase “baptizing them” identifies the action of the noun. When we make disciples we are “baptizing them” into the TEACHING of the Tri-une God.

I know you that don't believe in the Trinity. But I am glad that you understand that the participle “baptizing” in the classical sense of the term is what Jesus was speaking about.

blessings,

March 10, 2011 at 2:42 pm#334729