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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2010,18:44) Hi SF,
Using the weak understandings and measures of men and attempting to define God is what leads to the theologians pit.
Better to follow the Word, seek the kingdom and the enlightening Spirit of God
So IS God not Perfect?Whats wrong with what im saying?
Hi Dennison,
You said:
Quote God is perfect correct? that means though everything is possible for him, he will only choose whats perfect, flawless. he will take nothing, and make it perfect. So God cannot make anything that is imperfect? He chose the nation of Israel as His people, and they weren't perfect or flawless.
You said:
Quote If Jesus implied that God can compelete his purpose another way, than its not perfect. But Gods will was determine on one way. So God HAD to save us ONLY the way that He did? He COULDN'T have saved us by different means?
You said:
Quote To respond to one of your questions, If God can make angels into men, make a camel go through the eye of the needle, than God can be omnipresent, yet a Perfect man all in the same time. To say he couldnt is a limitation. Yes, of course. God can do anything. Nonetheless, scripture doesn't say that God came as a man. It says that God sent His only begotten Son as a man.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 05 2010,11:27) Hi Dennison, You said:
Quote God is perfect correct? that means though everything is possible for him, he will only choose whats perfect, flawless. he will take nothing, and make it perfect. So God cannot make anything that is imperfect? He chose the nation of Israel as His people, and they weren't perfect or flawless.
You said:
Quote If Jesus implied that God can compelete his purpose another way, than its not perfect. But Gods will was determine on one way. So God HAD to save us ONLY the way that He did? He COULDN'T have saved us by different means?
You said:
Quote To respond to one of your questions, If God can make angels into men, make a camel go through the eye of the needle, than God can be omnipresent, yet a Perfect man all in the same time. To say he couldnt is a limitation. Yes, of course. God can do anything. Nonetheless, scripture doesn't say that God came as a man. It says that God sent His only begotten Son as a man.
peace and love,
mikeQuote So God cannot make anything that is imperfect? He chose the nation of Israel as His people, and they weren't perfect or flawless. He made man perfect, its man who made himself imperfect. Israel wasnt a nation, it was Abraham who was chosen, the youngest out of his brothers (i think) and he was chosen out of the gentiles to make a nation he wanted. He wanted a flawless people.
Quote So God HAD to save us ONLY the way that He did? He COULDN'T have saved us by different means? Think about it, IF God can do anything he wanted, he will choose the best perfect way. anything else would be flawed. therefore one must conclude that God found the PERFECT way to save us. To say otherwise, would be extra biblical.
Quote Yes, of course. God can do anything. Nonetheless, scripture doesn't say that God came as a man. It says that God sent His only begotten Son as a man. Here is the thing, else where scripture states that Jesus was the creator. (collasions) and life consists of him. The thing is if God participates within time, or a space or matter… it would be a limitation to his omnipresence and his eternity. IF God particapted, than that his the Christ. If he took part of our temporal story, than it is Christ. God being God, yet God being Christ. is the same. It just makes him even more perfect and flawless. we keep on argueing as if Jesus was just a man, but you guys also admit he existed before, in the Begginging, participated within world events before, than Jesus is not just a man, not just a son, a Creator, THe word, and many other things. Therefore Can Jesus who is perfect and always has been can become man? obviously we agree here. Where we dont agree is Jesus God.
To Particpate in time, is limiting to God.
much love,
Hi Dennison,
You said:
Quote He made man perfect, its man who made himself imperfect. Israel wasnt a nation, it was Abraham who was chosen, the youngest out of his brothers (i think) and he was chosen out of the gentiles to make a nation he wanted. He wanted a flawless people. As I learned a while back from Nick, scripture never says Adam was made “perfect”. Nor was Abraham. Nor was the nation of Israel flawless.
You said:
Quote Think about it, IF God can do anything he wanted, he will choose the best perfect way. anything else would be flawed. therefore one must conclude that God found the PERFECT way to save us. To say otherwise, would be extra biblical. I agree that God is perfect. I don't agree that God is limited to only one “perfect” way to accomplish His purposes. Whatever way God decides to do it, it is then God's perfect way. If He had decided to wipe us all out and then start over, that way also would have been God's perfect way to accomplish His purpose.
You said:
Quote Here is the thing, else where scripture states that Jesus was the creator. Scripture says that everything came FROM God, THROUGH His Son, Jesus. That's a big difference there, my friend. Let me try to nip this in the bud: Could God the Father have done everything that has been done without His Son? How about the other way around? Could the Son have done ANYTHING that has been done without his Father and God? What does scripture say about this?
peace and love,
mikeMike,
Man made himself flawed through Adam. It is not a matter of Perfect man to god. God made Adam and he was to create offspring in his own likeness.
God chose a nation that best pleased him from the line of Seth because Cain was unsuitable and Abel was dead.
God chose Noah out of all peoples because Noah was the only one who was suitable in his sight (I hear tell, people saying that God cannot SEE SIN – this is false – God HATES to LOOK UPON SIN)
Did anyone say that ALL of Noah's Family were sinless – or just that Noah was sinless before God (That is that God ignored some of Noah's 'sins' like his drunkardness – because ALL men are sinful – even those God chose as 'Sinless before his eyes)
God was nearly prepared to wipe man from the face of the earth – until he found Noah.
Remember that SATAN set a challenge to God that man could rule himself without God. What choice was there – If God had simply “Started again” Satan would have gloated to eternity that God had copped out.
God is wise – he hurtingly, agreed to Satan's challenge knowing that his creation would suffer and that he would have to make a the sacrifice of all sacrifice of his own beloved Son (Fractalled in Abraham and Isaac) to redeem Man – An ultimate Blood Sacrifice over his normal Animal Sacrifice that he requested from Man. (What does Scriptures say “For Sacrifice and offerings you did not desire…”)
I agree with all else.
SF,
what's going with you man.
You had such a flying start here – Now I don't know what you believe – you are all over the place!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2010,16:00) Hi SF,
The message of salvation is not that men can get to know ABOUT God but KNOW HIM.
Hi Nick,Then what is meant by, “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”?
To know God, we must know a little about Him, don't you think?
peace and love,
mikeMike,
Not taking sides, moderating only…
Nick is saying that it is not enough just to know about God, that is learn him like a school lesson with no actual meaning. For how many people actually use their school lesson learning in practical life…can't do basic math, can't speak propa', cant rite a desent sentance, what use were all those 'lesons longe' language lessons, and history thats all in the past, geography, glad i got over that mountainous subject, and R.E..'thank God for Jesus, I can cross that out of my life'!
Nick, goes on to say that we need to 'know' him. That is, to put into effect, into action, that which we know about him.
Knowledge of God is not Faith in God, for even demons have knowledge, (and more so than man), of God, yet they did not maintain Faith in Him.
And Faith should then by backed by works.
Quote (JustAskin @ June 06 2010,11:40) Mike, Man made himself flawed through Adam. It is not a matter of Perfect man to god. God made Adam and he was to create offspring in his own likeness.
God chose a nation that best pleased him from the line of Seth because Cain was unsuitable and Abel was dead.
God chose Noah out of all peoples because Noah was the only one who was suitable in his sight (I hear tell, people saying that God cannot SEE SIN – this is false – God HATES to LOOK UPON SIN)
Did anyone say that ALL of Noah's Family were sinless – or just that Noah was sinless before God (That is that God ignored some of Noah's 'sins' like his drunkardness – because ALL men are sinful – even those God chose as 'Sinless before his eyes)
God was nearly prepared to wipe man from the face of the earth – until he found Noah.
Remember that SATAN set a challenge to God that man could rule himself without God. What choice was there – If God had simply “Started again” Satan would have gloated to eternity that God had copped out.
God is wise – he hurtingly, agreed to Satan's challenge knowing that his creation would suffer and that he would have to make a the sacrifice of all sacrifice of his own beloved Son (Fractalled in Abraham and Isaac) to redeem Man – An ultimate Blood Sacrifice over his normal Animal Sacrifice that he requested from Man. (What does Scriptures say “For Sacrifice and offerings you did not desire…”)
I agree with all else.
Hi JA,This topic opens up a can of worms with endless possibilities and opinions.
Was man actually created perfect? Well, he was created without sin, but with the ability to choose to sin. Much like the angels. It's obvious that God didn't intend for men and angels to be robots – always making the right choice. I think therefore he created us, not “perfect”, but in a way that was more like the animals. Animals don't have the “knowledge of right and wrong” like we now do thanks to Adam eating of the tree of knowleged of right and wrong. Therefore, I don't think animals CAN sin. Who knows how things would have progressed had Adam and Eve chose not to eat of the fruit.
Can a hidden tribe in Africa “sin” against God when they have never even known of God?
From reading Rev, I get the feeling that mankind will ALWAYS have freedom of choice, even after God once again dwells with us. That leads me to believe that some men (and angels) will always choose their own will over God's.
You said:
Quote Remember that SATAN set a challenge to God that man could rule himself without God. What choice was there – If God had simply “Started again” Satan would have gloated to eternity that God had copped out. I agree that Satan challenged God's right to rule His own creation. I don't agree that God has let it play out so Satan couldn't gloat, for God could have wiped him out too. I think it was more for the benefit of the other angels who, while standing by God during this challenge, might have always wondered whether Satan was right or not.
Endless possibilities and conjecture on this one, my friend.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ June 07 2010,03:20) Mike, Not taking sides, moderating only…
Nick is saying that it is not enough just to know about God, that is learn him like a school lesson with no actual meaning. For how many people actually use their school lesson learning in practical life…can't do basic math, can't speak propa', cant rite a desent sentance, what use were all those 'lesons longe' language lessons, and history thats all in the past, geography, glad i got over that mountainous subject, and R.E..'thank God for Jesus, I can cross that out of my life'!
Nick, goes on to say that we need to 'know' him. That is, to put into effect, into action, that which we know about him.
Knowledge of God is not Faith in God, for even demons have knowledge, (and more so than man), of God, yet they did not maintain Faith in Him.
And Faith should then by backed by works.
Hi JA,So you disagree with my statement that to know God, we must know about God?
mike
Mike,
You are right about the innocent and 'imperfect man'…however, be careful how that is expanded… God created man the way He wanted…if that meant 'with the ability to adapt and develop, not a of a fixed mind, a godlike entity with the free will to create, design, enhance, destroy, rule, husband…in short,a limited contained, earth and flesh bound version of Himself' then that is his wise decision.
If we try to change that by thought or human ideals we make ourselves in to a Satan…
Hidden tribe…yes, innocent of the knowledge of God and the testimony of Christ. But for this reason it ia written that the testimony must be preached in the whole world.
But, even withstanding that, all mamkind has God in them by way of their spirit and that spirit has knowledge of good and bad by way of Adam…for we are all descended from Adam and through Noah, but not all of Noah's family were sinless…
So even that hidden tribe knows good from bad and for this reason they are not innocent in the extreme sense…ignorant, yes, innocent, no…but then this will br taken into account at the second rising from the dead. All will be given knowledge of God and then they will be judged in the full and fair knowledge of Him.
And, if God simply wiped out Satan? What woulf that prove?
Mike, remember, these creatures are immortal…they would remember that whimpy solution and be servile by dread because God showed no patience, no willingness to consider reconcilliation nor understanding…do you slap your child the first time he drops a plate…bad example but do you get the idea?Mike,
To know God… No, and thats not what i implied.
I said that Nick said that simply 'knowing about' God is not enough. We need to also 'know' Him' Even demons 'know about' God.
To 'know' Him is to love him. You are doing the same thing you just criticised Gene for.
Having learnt the lesson, to know the subject…
It is then important to apply that knowledge in our everyday life.Having learnt ABOUT God, it is then important to APPLY that knowledge in our daily lives…that is what 'knowing Him' means…
Can one say 'I know about God' but I don't know him?, yes, of course.
I was taught Francaise, but I don't apply it in everyday life…I don't 'know' French.
I was taught about God, AND I apply the 'know'ledge of Him in my everyday life, yes, I know Him.
To 'know him' is to do His will'…as best you can considering…our faillings…Hi JA,
Yes, God created man the way He wanted. And apparently He withheld the knowledge of right and wrong from us. It is because of Satan's meddling that we have gained that knowledge. Just think, we could have been as free as the birds, without the mental anguish of battling what our human desires tell us we want to do against the knowledge that it is wrong. Satan caused us to have a lot of stress that was unecessary when God first created Adam.
Where is it said that angels are immortal?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ June 07 2010,03:59) To 'know' Him is to love him. You are doing the same thing you just criticised Gene for.
What?!?Nick said: The message of salvation is not that men can get to know ABOUT God but KNOW HIM.
Do you see the wording? NOT one thing, BUT the other.
I said it must be both.
Then you started attacking me on it.
What part of my statement was incorrect in your opinion?mike
Hi MB,
What I mean is that if you want to know more about God get to know Him and He will tell you.
Studying Him from afar is never going to be accurate.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 07 2010,09:11) Hi MB,
What I mean is that if you want to know more about God get to know Him and He will tell you.
Studying Him from afar is never going to be accurate.
Hi Nick,I understand and meant no offense to you. I agree that we must both take in knowledge of God and Jesus while simultaneously praying for revelation from God's Spirit. And I agree it does no good to know everything a human can ABOUT Him if we don't also KNOW HIM.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ June 06 2010,11:41) SF, what's going with you man.
You had such a flying start here – Now I don't know what you believe – you are all over the place!
lol you think so?Actually i think i made a mistake by commenting on to many topics, and i got posted out.
Idk, What do you think i believe. Actually if your talking about what i said to mike, im trying to remember what i said, im actually looking back right now, to see how it all started bc i disorganized myself. lol.
lol whats the diffeerence now than before?
Quote As I learned a while back from Nick, scripture never says Adam was made “perfect”. Nor was Abraham. Nor was the nation of Israel flawless.
Adam: was compared to Christ whom is perfect, who didnt sin. The second Adam. he was in the likenss of God, so he had a since of perfection in him. in other words, everything was made without flaw, because God said everything was good. Abraham=was not perfect, nor was the nation of Israel being flawless, but that was the gist, or the idea of why they became a nation, to be prophet nation to the gentiles, (is that correct? doesnt it say after moses took them out of egypt that they will be a chosen nation, the prophets of other nations? maybe im wrong, i dont rememer…)
The idea of all the rules they had, was to be in some since holy.Quote I agree that God is perfect. I don't agree that God is limited to only one “perfect” way to accomplish His purposes. Whatever way God decides to do it, it is then God's perfect way. If He had decided to wipe us all out and then start over, that way also would have been God's perfect way to accomplish His purpose.
I agree, but he DIDNT choose that. actually he did once with Noah, but think about it, IF God didnt do something its for a reason. More as if God decieded, as in actualy taking action and took out the whole world, and started using Cows to be prophets if he so willed it to be, than so be it. but he didnt. its for a reason.Quote Scripture says that everything came FROM God, THROUGH His Son, Jesus. That's a big difference there, my friend. Let me try to nip this in the bud: Could God the Father have done everything that has been done without His Son? How about the other way around? Could the Son have done ANYTHING that has been done without his Father and God? What does scripture say about this?
Jesus Cannot do anything without the Father according to scripture. God chose to do everything through his Son.
Perfection.much love mike,
IF i didnt make since at all,
lol let me know.Hi Dennison,
How are you my friend? I hope well.
You said:
Quote Adam: was compared to Christ whom is perfect, who didnt sin. The second Adam. Compared? Or was it more like “contrasted”?
You said:
Quote Jesus Cannot do anything without the Father according to scripture. God chose to do everything through his Son.
Perfection.Well said. The truth is so simple sometimes.
peace and love,
mike
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