Matthew 28:19 authentic or not?

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 19 2010,02:33)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 15 2010,22:02) Hi TT, Will you still be fighting mock battles over falsehoods and trivia when the Master returns? NH Which master? You can only serve one! WJ

Hi WJ,
It is no surprise that you do not know your Lord and Master.
Does he know you?

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2010,15:19)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 19 2010,02:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 15 2010,22:02) Hi TT, Will you still be fighting mock battles over falsehoods and trivia when the Master returns? NH Which master? You can only serve one! WJ Hi WJ, It is no surprise that you do not know your Lord and Master. Does he know you?

You see Nick,

Its comments such as these, that make me wonder if you love your brother or not?

I feel no love in such a comment.

again thats what i feel… if you were to say such a thing to me

[NickHassan]

Hi SF,
You are right that I am not a brother of those in the world's church.
Seek first the kingdom.
Our God is One.

[mikeboll64]

Hi WJ,

This is great!  We are getting closer to the heart of some issues!

You said:

Quote

You are being dishonest here IMO, for you full well know that Trinitarians do not believe in “Three equal Gods”.

I know that you like to say that.  But the trinity, like I told our brother Paul, is just a mysterious, confusing way to worship 3 different gods, yet fit these 3 gods into a monotheistic belief system.  What else did your trinity God create that has three separate persons residing in one being?
Aren't we all made in God's image?  Yet, none of us are three separate persons inside one being, are we?  Oh, that's right, we are not God, and so that makes all this confusion okay.  

Hey, I had just finished a reply to your post (5 hours worth), and when I went to preview it, the account was suspended.  To make it worse, Yahoo didn’t cache my reply, so I lost the whole thing.  I’m doing this on Word to paste in later.  I don’t remember all your points, but this is the best I can do for now.

You listed some Scriptures that sound like the Holy Spirit has authority.  WJ, the Holy Spirit does not speak or act of his own initiative.  When it is worded as though the Spirit did or said something, you have to realize that it is God the Father who did or said it THROUGH the Holy Spirit.  It is a part of God.  It is, like the JW’s assert, God’s “active force”.

You talked about renowned people believing in the trinity.  Did you know that Isaac Newton is considered to have been one of the smartest men in history?   He is placed even above Einstein by most scientists.  He didn’t believe in a trinity, and was excommunicated for it.  Neither here nor there, just food for thought.  

Eusebius, who you touted as writing a glowing recommendation to the Nicene Council, didn’t either.  When I read what you quoted, I got the sneaking suspicion that it was worded in a way that would appease those in power, but without actually confirming his belief in the trinity.  I did some research, and it turns out I was right.  Wikipedia says of Eusebius:

Eusebius was intent upon emphasizing the difference of the persons of the Trinity and maintaining the subordination of the Son (Logos, or Word) to God (Eusebius never calls Jesus theos) because in all contrary attempts he suspected either polytheism (three distinct gods) or Sabellianism (three modes of one divine person). The Son (Jesus), as Arius asserted, is a creature of God whose generation, for Eusebius, took place before time. Jesus acts as the organ or instrument of God, the creator of life, the principle of every revelation of God, who in his absoluteness and transcendence is enthroned above and isolated from all the world. This Logos, as a derivative creature and not truly God as the Father is truly God, could therefore change (Eusebius, with most early theologians, assumed God was immutable), and he assumed a human body without altering the immutable divine Father. Likewise, Eusebius described the relation of the Holy Spirit within the Trinity to that of the Son to the Father. No point of this doctrine is original with Eusebius, all is traceable to his teacher Origen. The lack of originality in his thinking shows itself in the fact that he never presented his thoughts in a system. After nearly being excommunicated for his heresy by Alexander of Alexandria, Eusebius submitted and agreed to the Nicene Creed at the First Council of Nicea in 325.

I have read before that many of the delegates who showed up for that first council were “muscled” into accepting the creed.  This is at least one example for sure.  

And before we leave Eusebius, do you agree that his second use of the word “begotten” was “genao”?  Or maybe “ginomai”?  Either way, doesn’t this prove that in the 4th century, begotten still meant begotten?  He said Jesus was the “only begotten” (mongenes), and then said he was “begotten” (probably  genao) by the Father.  Since we know that “genao” and “ginomai” still meant “caused to exist”, or “made”  in NT times, we can safely assume that “monogenes” still meant “only caused to exist” or “only made”  in NT times and up to 300 years later based on your Eusebius quote, right?  

What else?  Oh, you talked about me asking the same question over and over.  This is because you haven’t been clear.  You say that while Matt 28:19 doesn’t prove a trinity, it proves that Jesus mentioned a trinity.  What?  If it doesn’t actually prove your trinity, then all it proves is that Jesus was capable of mentioning three things in one sentence.  Don’t forget, your trinitarian Strong says,

“This text, however, taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity.”  

You claim that the word “name” is singular; therefore it has to be one name talked about.  I showed you that the word “throne” is singular in Revelation, yet it refers to two thrones.  It means, “the throne God and [the throne] of the Lamb”.  Just like Matt refers to, “the name of the Father (YHWH) and [the name] of the Son (Jesus) and [the name] of the Holy Spirit (the Holy Spirit)”.  The Holy Spirit doesn’t even have a personal name, because it isn’t a separate person, like the other two.
 
I gave one analogy of us going out to eat.  Here’s another corny one.  I said, “Stop!  In the name of the law and everything decent.”   But what I meant was, “and [in the name of] everything decent”.  I’ll think up some more, if you’d like.  

The bottom line is that you can’t prove by the wording that it means three have one name.   And try as you might, you can’t prove that Jesus EVER had the name YHWH.  Nor can you assert that because the disciples baptized only in the name of Jesus, that this meant they “magically” knew that Jesus was God, or that God’s name is now Jesus, and they just forgot to tell the rest of the world.

And I'm waiting for a response to my “Webster's god” post.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (thethinker @ May 16 2010,09:58)

I can't decide if I will continue discoursing with Mike or not. He lost the argument when he said that Jesus is a god in the “same sense” that satan is a god. I have never heard this one, not even from the most ardent Arian here. Mike's statement is totally anathema! He also lost the right hand argument when he said that Jesus does not reign now but is “waiting” for God to do something.

Hi Thinker or Kangaroo or whoever,

Wake up and smell the coffee, dude.

The devil exists.  He is a god, but not God.

Jesus exists.  He is a god, but not God.  It's what the scriptures teach, if you don't like it, stop discoursing with them.

And I'm still waiting for you to finally address the right hand argument.  I know you're scared by the way you go from post to post inserting “you already lost the argument” when we haven't even started it yet.  And it's sure not because of me, I've been almost begging you to respond in our debate for months.  Maybe this week?

peace and love,
mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 15 2010,11:05)

To the thinker and WJ, Webster’s Dictionary defines the word god as,“any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature”.  This same definition applied during biblical times.   By this definition, Jehovah is a god.  So is Jesus, Satan, angels, Astarte, Dagon, Molech, Baal, and many, many others.

Mike

Where is the proof that this definition applied to Biblical Times? Did Jesus and the Apostles have a Websters dictionary? Proof Mike and not wishful assumptions!

You should be consistant in your definition Mike.

By the way you sound so much like a JW its not funny, its obvious they have a strong hold on your thnking.

But anyway if Jehovah is “a god” as you say and the definition is…”having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature”“, and he is your god, and Jesus is also “a god” and has “special powers over your life and affairs, then that would make him your god, also, right?

But you say no Mike. You say he is not your god! How confusing is that Mike? How do you tell someone that John 1:1c means Jesus is “a god” but he is not your god, but he is your Lord and Savour and owns you!  

Hello, is anybody home?

Can't you see the holes in your theology?

Please explain?  

Thomas didn't have a problem calling Jesus his “Lord and God”. John 20:28  Why do you?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 19 2010,21:07)

Hey, I had just finished a reply to your post (5 hours worth), and when I went to preview it, the account was suspended.  To make it worse, Yahoo didn’t cache my reply, so I lost the whole thing.  I’m doing this on Word to paste in later.  I don’t remember all your points, but this is the best I can do for now.

Sorry that happened. But I will bump the post so you will have all the points because this post sure doesn't answer them!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Bump For Mike!

Mike

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

Your question is a non issue that’s why I chose not to answer. What are you trying to prove here? Does the Holy Spirit have a throne?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

No.  Although that was my question to the trinitarians in the “why two thrones” thread I started.  You response here is the same lame response you gave there.  Doesn't add up to me – THREE equal gods, but only TWO get to sit on thrones.

Why do you keep using lame tactics like this Mike? What if I misrepresented your beliefs in an attempt to discredit your theology? What if I said Mike believes in three unequal god’s, just to make a point. You are being dishonest here IMO, for you full well know that Trinitarians do not believe in “Three equal Gods”. You refuse to see that God is Spirit and that the essence of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is “One” just like the essence of human beings is “One”. Your problem is you see God with only you natural mind and it seems that is the only way you can perceive him. Tell me Mike, can you say the Holy Spirit revealed to you what you believe?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Anyway, the throne question you have “missed” in this thread is as follows: I wonder if that verse could mean, “in the name of the Father, and the name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Spirit.” It is worded as such in Rev, where John says in New Jerusalem there will be the “throne of God, and of the Lamb.” We could easily read this as only one throne, had we not previously been told there are two.

No you can read it as “One” throne because that is the way you choose to see it. But in the “New Heavens and the New Earth” there is only “One” throne and it is called the throne of God and of the Lamb.

The Greek word for “River” is a “singular masculine noun” meaning there is only “one river” and not two. This river is flowing out of the throne (singular masculine noun) of the Father and Jesus.

This is what the scriptures say about the Kingdom of Jesus, the Kingdom of God…

”Of the increase of his government and peace THERE WILL BE NO END”. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and FOREVER. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. Isa 9:7

Then Jesus answered, “I am not an earthly king. If I were, my followers would have fought when I was arrested by the Jewish leaders. “MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD” John 18:36

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then “the kingdom of God” is come unto you. Matt 12:28

”The Son of man shall send forth HIS ANGELS”, and they shall gather out of “HIS KINGDOM” all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; Matt 13:41

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see “the Son of man coming in HIS KINGDOM”. Matt 16:28

Jesus specifically calls the Kingdom of God his Kingdom and Isaiah prophesies his Kingdom will never end. Paul states that we have been translated into the Kingdom of the Fathers dear Son. Col 1:13

The word “River” (potamon ποταμον) and “Throne” (thronos, θρονου) is singular and unfortunately for you it doesn’t read…

And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. does it Mike?

So there is no comparison to these verses (at least the way you see it) and Matt 28:19.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

You replied that the word “name” is singular.  Isn't also the word “throne” singular?  Yet we know he speaks of two.  So once again, does the wording make it absolutely mean only one name?

Yes, since the Apostles carried out his mandate in the “singular name of Jesus”, so the only conclusion is they understood Jesus claim in Matt 28:18 as having all authority and power to include the Father and the Holy Spirit that they were baptized into.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

Does the Holy Spirit have his own throne? No, but that is not the role of the Holy Spirit is it? The Holy Spirit is ‘Omnipresent”, why does he need a throne?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Isn't the Father also “omnipresent”?  Why does He need a throne?

Because the Father and the Son are the ones to whom the Holy Spirit is subservient to. If the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are “omnipresent”, what does that tell you? No being can be omnipresent unless he is God! The Holy Spirit comes from the Father and Jesus, so that means the Holy Spirit comes from the throne and in fact is depicted as the river spoken of in Revelation 22:1-3.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

He is subservient to the Father and Jesus.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

This will come in handy.

I am sure you think so!

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

I am glad you agree, but like David you use examples that do not compare, because the three you mention do not have the same name do they?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Are you sure your three have the same name?

I am sure that the three share in the same name or authority that Jesus has. That is called equality. Even if you want to say they were to baptize in the “authority” of the three, it still means the same thing. Again, the Apostles confirm that baptism was done in the name of Jesus which is a fulfillment of Jesus words since he has all authority and power! Matt 28:18

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

Nor are they corporately part of a divine mandate are they?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

A divine mandate that was never followed in Scripture.

So Jesus was lying or the Apostles disobeyed him or the scriptures are corrupt?

Which one is it Mike? Are you going to join the unbelievers that discredit the written scriptures?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

There you go asking the same question again. See that is what I am talking about. You get an answer but you keep asking the same thing as if you are going to get a different answer. This whole thing started because you said there was not even a hint of a Trinity found in scriptures. Well you were wrong as you can see you now agree that it is a Trinity. That was all I wanted to prove to you that Jesus mentioned a Trinity.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

See, that is what I'm talking about.  Still no real answer.  Did Jesus talk about a trinity in respect to “three in one God”?  Absolutely not.  Are you implying he did?  Did Jesus talk about a trinity in respect to “I can mention three things in one sentence”?  Sure.  Is that all you are saying?

See Mike, this is why it is so grievous to have dialogue with you because of the word games and smoke screens and diversions you create. Now you are changing the question into “Did Jesus talk about a trinity in respect to “three in one God”?”. You know full well that was not my contention in this thread yet you choose to misrepresent me in answering your original statement that “there was not even a hint of a Trinity in the Bible”. Now you admit that Matt 28:19 is a Trinity. So you were wrong and instead of admitting that, you start a dance and create a diversion. I seriously question your honesty Mike!

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

Now that you see this then the obvious question which no one and especially you have not answered is… In what way is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit different in their respective nature or ontology?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Is your spirit a separate person inside the WJ “man-head”?

No I am not God!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Can your spirit live a separate life?

No, the Holy Spirit shares the same “God kind of life” that the Father and Jesus do. There is “one” essence of God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit share that essence.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Can it run off and go shopping for clothes while you sit at home?

My Spirit is not an “it”, but coupled with my soul is who I am.

The scriptures say…

Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in “THE ANGUISH OF MY SPIRIT”; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul. Job 7:11

As for me, is my complaint to man? and if it were so, why should not “my spirit be troubled”? Job 21:4

remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and “my spirit was overwhelmed”. Selah. Pss 77:3

I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and “my spirit made diligent search”. Pss 77:6

And “my spirit hath rejoiced in God” my Saviour. Lk 1:47

In these scriptures we see our Spirit can have anguish, be troubled, be overwhelmed, and search out things, and can rejoice in God. But no I am not God and cannot send my Spirit to live and dwell in another. But the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit lives in us!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Can it post your thoughts about the trinity that you yourself do not tell it to post?

No because my Spirit will only do what I do because my Spirit is me!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

How about your son?  While he is in the same “nature” as you, can he be the same being as you?

No, because neither my son nor I am God. But my son is every bit human as I.  

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Can he be a separate person in the WJ man-head?

No, because neither I nor he is God.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

I've asked you this before, and your response was, “well, we are not God”.

You see, there you go again, asking the same questions and expecting a different answer!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

This is lame and you know it.

No what is lame is you are limiting an infinite God to your own human logic by comparing mortal finite man to an infinite God.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

You profess to prove your un-Scriptural theory by saying that while it is against all logic as we understand it, we are not God.  Well, Jehovah is not a God of confusion.  Your god the trinity, most undoubtedly is, though.

Yes it is confusing to you because you refuse to accept the whole council of God found in the scriptures , but only use your pick and choose method rather than let the Lord show you by his Spirit who the “True God” is. Do you think that you know all about the infinite nature of God? I have proven by Matt 28:19 that Jesus spoke of a Trinity. I never claimed it by itself proves the Trinity.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

I could argue the same thing to prove that Moses was actually God on earth.

No you can’t, because Moses didn’t exist before time and space and create anything, and Moses is not the “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” a divine title of whom has all authority and power and by whom all things consist and by whom all things are upheld by the word of his power and who will subdue all things to himself who is our “Only Owner or master who redeemed us with his own blood for himself. You know these scriptures don’t you Mike?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Well, Jehovah actually said in that one verse that he would be God to Pharaoh and Aaron.

No Mike, it doesn’t say he would be God to Aaron, it says he would be “a God” or “as God” or “like God” to Pharaoh, and since we know that Aaron never once referred to Moses as his God and that YHWH says that there was no Gods formed before him or after him then we know Moses was only “a God” to Pharaoh a Polytheist who worshipped many gods.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Sure, the rest of Scripture doesn't back it up, but I've got two things on my side.  That ONE little verse where Jehovah called him God, and the fallback position of,

YHWH didn’t call him God Mike, he said he would be as God to Pharaoh. Why would YHWH contradict his own word that there are no other gods but him!

“

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

so what if it doesn't make sense to us humans – we are not God, are we?”.

We are not “gods” at all are we? I find it interesting now that you appeal to what you do not understand as being truth!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Lame, lame, lame.  And shame, shame, shame.

Ye it is a shame you do not have scripture backing your theology up!  

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

Why does Jesus speak of the three with the definite article and ascribing a single name to the three if he is not at least implying equality of persons?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Why does John speak of two thrones with the definite article and the singular word “throne”?  Don't you at least agree with Strong's?  He says about Matt 28:19, “This text, however, taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity.”

I have already told you that by itself it doesn’t prove the Trinity. But you have to take all of the scriptures into account. And the scriptures undoubtedly show the personality of the three. A.T. Robertson says…

This program includes making disciples or learners (maqhteusate) such as they were themselves. That means evangelism in the fullest sense and not merely revival meetings. Baptism in (ei, not into) the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in the name of the Trinity.

He is a world renowned Greek Grammarian and I would say understands the NT scriptures better than you and me, and has compared all scriptures to come up with his conclusions. The cream of Greek scholarship including “Strong” believes in the Trinity Mike. That leaves you and the NWT out there on your own. Why isn’t there any world renown Greek Grammarians or scholars who are not Trinitarians or have brought to us a legitimate translation? Because they cannot improve on what we have, that’s why!

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

I think it is more like it doesn’t have anything to do with your Arian doctrine seeing that you do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a person, though Jesus says he shares a name with the Father and Jesus.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Is your spirit a separate person?

Already answered!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Why then would God's be?  And you don't even know for sure if the Scripture is legit, let alone it speaks of a single name for the three mentioned.

First even if you say it is n
ot a single name it would still mean the Holy Spirit like the Father and Jesus has a personal name. But now we are getting to the bottom of it, just like JA now has doubts about it being a legitimate verse. It seems that this verse has had an impact on you Mike, and it is because it is irrefutable proof that there are three which makes it very difficult for you to reconcile your false Arian theology. I expect that soon if not already Matt 28:19 is going to end up in your mind as a corruption in the text just as T believes    

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

Bingo! I just told you how again! But somehow I think you will come back with the same questions since you cannot comprehend this or you are just sticking your head in the sand again, which is it?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

You see what I'm saying?  Told me again?  You haven't told me anything real yet.  Read your response above and my comment to it.  You just refuse to give a real answer.

{{{{{Shaking Head}}}}}

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

First of all, Jesus gives the Apostles a divine mandate to baptize men in the “name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”. So tell my why would Jesus mention the Holy Spirit here if the Holy Spirit does not have authority?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

First of all, MAYBE, if the Scripture is legit.  But a better question is, “Why did none of the apostles follow his “mandate”?

There it is everybody. Mike believes either Jesus was lying or the Apostles failed to follow his mandate. My bet is he is going to trash Jesus words as being never spoken or not being inspired. This is usually what the Arians do with scriptures they do no accept. Truth be known they do not accept many of them for the Bible is a Trinitarian book!

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

Secondly, you are totally wrong about the Spirit not having “authority or power”. Do you even read my post here or do you just skim over them? Or better yet, have you even read the whole Bible?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Sometimes I skip over the “million word marches” that you post.  But I have read the Bible cover to cover twice, and I'm in Jeremiah on my third time through right now.

Good, because I had wondered.  

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

In a reply to David I mentioned many cases where the Holy Spirit has authority over the church and in fact empowers the church with authority and power.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Cool, let's check them out.

OK.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

At once the Spirit sent him out into the desert,  Mk 1:12 Jesus submits to the Holy Spirits leading here. The Holy Spirit “sent” him. This means the Holy Spirit has authority over him doesn’t it Mike? You should learn the scriptures, because like JA your theology is full of holes.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Hmmmm…but didn't you just say, “He is subservient to the Father and Jesus.”  I knew this would come in handy.

See Mike this is the kind of diversions and dishonest tactics that you pull all the time.

You know full well we believe that Jesus left his place of Glory and humbled himself by coming in the likeness of sinful flesh and fulfilled all righteousness and for a time was subject to the Father and the Holy Spirit. But now the Holy Spirit according to Jesus words is subservient to him after his exaltation. John 16:7-15

I noticed you didn’t address the point that the Holy Spirit had authority over Jesus. Remember Mike you said…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2010,21:56)

One last point:  You mentioned to Marty that the Holy Spirit had power and authority.  Where does Scripture say that the Holy Spirit has authority over anything?

I show you and instead of you acknowledging the truth or address the point, you create a smoke screen. You are not seeking truth as you say Mike. You are too proud to admit when you are wrong.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, “HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, AND BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, whatsoever I have said unto you”. John 14:26 If the Holy Spirit is our guide and he is our teacher then he is over us, isn’t he?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Yet, Jesus said, “13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming.” Sounds like the Spirit OF God speaks only what God speaks through it.  If y ou don't want your grandson to play football, can your spirit tell him to go ahead and play anyway, against your will?

Thank you Mike for you just admitted that Jesus is God because it is Jesus that the Holy Spirit listens to and Jesus that the Holy Spirit takes from. Read the context Mike!

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; HE WILL SPEAK ONLY WHAT HE HEARS, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring me glory by revealing to you whatever he receives from me. “ALL THAT BELONGS TO THE FATHER IS MINE. That is why I said THE SPIRIT WILL TAKE FROM WHAT IS MINE and make it known to you”. John 16:13-15

But you still did not show me where the Holy Spirit doesn’t have authority over us Mike. Remember you said…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2010,21:56)

One last point:  You mentioned to Marty that the Holy Spirit had power and authority.  Where does Scripture say that the Holy Spirit has authority over anything?

If the Holy Spirit is our guide and our teacher then he has authority over us!

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

I would say that is “authority” wouldn't you Mike? I could go on Mike but I will let you choke on those for awhile. Maybe you should retract your statement, or heck maybe you should trash your Arian theology and start all over again.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

The rest of the Scriptures you quoted amount to the same thing.  If God's Spirit tells you to do something, it is God telling it to you THROUGH His Spirit.

So the Holy Spirit does not have any authority over you? That tells me a lot Mike! Sad.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Bump for Mike!

Mike said…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2010,21:56)

One last point:  You mentioned to Marty that the Holy Spirit had power and authority.  Where does Scripture say that the Holy Spirit has authority over anything?

Mike chose to look over the following scriptures which are proof that the Holy Spirit has authority.

[david]

Quote

The Spirit had authority over Paul here. Why doesn’t the writer mention the Father

–WJ

Well if we look at the whole Bible for a moment….

In the Bible, do we ever hear of the “holy spirit's Jesus” as though Jesus was a possession of the holy spirit?

In the Bible, do we ever hear of the “holy spirit's God” as though God were a possession of the holy spirit?

“No” on both accounts.

Yet, we are very often told that the holy spirit is “God's holy spirit.”

More than a hundred times the holy spirit is referred to as “the spirit of Jehovah,” “God’s spirit,” “my spirit” and “spirit of Jesus Christ.” (As a side point, all such possessive uses of the holy spirit further argue that it is an instrumentality rather than a separate and distinct person.—Judg. 3:10; Matt. 3:16; Acts 2:18; Phil. 1:19; Ps 51:11; Joel 2:28,29)

The fact that the Bible speaks of the holy spirit as God's holy spirit… what does that tell us about when the holy spirit does something?

Again, there is a parallel account in the Bible where one writer calls it God's spirit and another calls it God's finger. We understand that a finger is a part of us, something we possess, something we use to accomplish our own will.

WHEN ONE VIEWS THE WHOLE BIBLE:
One would be foolish to argue that God's finger had any kind of authority apart from God.

[david]

Quote

You say that while Matt 28:19 doesn’t prove a trinity, it proves that Jesus mentioned a trinity. What? If it doesn’t actually prove your trinity, then all it proves is that Jesus was capable of mentioning three things in one sentence.

–Mike.

WJ, other people get this. Given the various other times that groups of three are mentioned, you'd have to think that statistically, God, Jesus and God's holy spirit would be mentioned together a couple of times, especially given how often God and Jesus are mentioned.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ May 20 2010,00:56)

The fact that the Bible speaks of the holy spirit as God's holy spirit… what does that tell us about when the holy spirit does something?

It tells us the same thing as when Gods Holy Angels does something! Angels are persons. The Holy Spirit is a person.

By your logic if I say “Holy Angel of God”, then the Angel is simply a force or power or finger of God but the Angel is not a living being.

The same word used for evil spirits “pnuema” is used for the Holy Spirit. So I guess that because they are “spirits of satan” or beelzabub they are not personal either right?

David, your doctrine denigrates the Holy Spirit as being less than demons and angels and humans.

An amorphous force or power or thing or an it doesn't have a will, and emotions, and intellect, that can speak and hear and teach and love and perform the acts we see throughout the scriptures without the mention of the Father or Jesus.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ May 20 2010,01:09)

Quote You say that while Matt 28:19 doesn’t prove a trinity, it proves that Jesus mentioned a trinity.  What?  If it doesn’t actually prove your trinity, then all it proves is that Jesus was capable of mentioning three things in one sentence. –Mike. WJ, other people get this.  Given the various other times that groups of three are mentioned, you'd have to think that statistically, God, Jesus and God's holy spirit would be mentioned together a couple of times, especially given how often God and Jesus are mentioned.

David

Did you over look the many times I showed you the three were mentioned, which you failed to respond to of course?

How about all the times the Holy Spirit is mentioned without the Father and Jesus?

Others get what I am saying. The trinities you mention does not compare to the Divine commission Jesus gave the Apostles to baptize in the “NAME” of the three. There is no way around that except to resort to doubting that the text exists or that Jesus spoke it.

Some basic knowledge in grammar tells you Jesus is referring to three persons here. But you guys are willing to throw out even basic grammar to hold on to your doctrine.

You have said it proves nothing. But you have failed to prove that statement because Jesus doesn't speak words that prove nothing.

WJ

[Mayz]

I still can't figure out the debate on the Trinity. Why do some people think it means Jesus is God? Aside from Jesus being the word made flesh, and the word was God (John 1) The trinity is defined as 3 distinct entities–Father (Creator and Provider), Son (1st Paraclete), and Holy Spirit (2nd Paraclete (John 14:16))–working in perfect unity. The, “baptizing them in the name of the Father , and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).” gave rise to argument between Christians and Jews. And the explanation of the trinity was created as defense to prevent Christians from being classified as polytheists (Worshiping multiple Gods or goddesses). Christians are actually Monotheists (One true God, which Christians believe.)

So if you believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are working together in perfect harmony to accomplish the goal of saving humanity, then you believe in the trinity.

[Mayz]

Also, “No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” Unless you are the Father, Son, or No one, you don't know if Jesus is God, a God in the beginning with Father, “Let us make man in our image” (Genesis 1:26), or Michael the Archangel. Just leave it as a mystery, because we wont know the answer to until we see Jesus return in all His Glory.

[karmarie]

Hi Mayz, welcome.

Im not a Trinitarian myself I believe in God the Father and then the Son The Holy Spirit but one thing I thought Trinitarians believe is that God The Father actually left Heaven and came down here in the form of Jesus? So it was God the Father who died…is this correct?

Another thing I found strange was going to church all my life (younger life) where I was led to believe Jesus was God there was No other known to me or them it seemed (When they said God it meant Jesus?). So later I found out there was The Father God YHVH (Jehovah). I still find it strange to this day whenever I go to some churches if I do?

Forgive me if im wrong but I cant figure the Trinity out. I do believe YHVH Jesus and the Spirit are one but in a much different way I think (One in agreement purpose etc). There are tricky verses which get me confused a bit in the old Testament though.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2010,15:30)

Quote (thethinker @ May 16 2010,09:58) I can't decide if I will continue discoursing with Mike or not. He lost the argument when he said that Jesus is a god in the “same sense” that satan is a god. I have never heard this one, not even from the most ardent Arian here. Mike's statement is totally anathema! He also lost the right hand argument when he said that Jesus does not reign now but is “waiting” for God to do something. Hi Thinker or Kangaroo or whoever, Wake up and smell the coffee, dude. The devil exists.  He is a god, but not God. Jesus exists.  He is a god, but not God.  It's what the scriptures teach, if you don't like it, stop discoursing with them. And I'm still waiting for you to finally address the right hand argument.  I know you're scared by the way you go from post to post inserting “you already lost the argument” when we haven't even started it yet.  And it's sure not because of me, I've been almost begging you to respond in our debate for months.  Maybe this week? peace and love, mike

Mike,
Anathema! Jesus is not a god in the “same sense” that Jesus is a god. Satan is a usurper. Jesus was the Eternal Word at God's side. Even if Jesus was a lesser “god” He is YOUR “god” Mike. Satan is not your god.

You are a heretic Mike. Since I have been here no anti-trinitarian here has said that Jesus is a god in the “same sense” as satan. Thrice anathema!

I won't be replying to you that much. Your blasphemy is too much for me to bear.

Even Is. 1:18  (Paul) PMed me twice and asked me why I continue to debate with you. It was after his PM's that I started to hesitate. Who wants to spend so much time debating an obnoxious person who is so unteachable that he has to day that Jesus is a god in the “same sense” as satan. You say this because you must and not because you really believe it. Only an obnoxious and unreasonable person would say that Jesus is a god in the “same sense” that satan is a god.

The Father said that all men should honor the Son EVEN AS they honor the Father. This means that you are in deep doo doo with the Father for comparing His Son to satan. DEEEEEP doo doo Mike!

You're just a trouble maker Mike. If you had a full and meaningful life you would not be here so much stirring up trouble. You tipped me off to this by your reply to me after I asked you if you ever take a break. You said that this board replaces TV. This means you have nothing to do Mike. So you come here to stir up trouble.

Unlike you WJ and I have lives outside this board. I am not sure I want to waste my time with an obnoxious person such as you.

thinker

[Mayz]

“David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: “'The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.””(Mark 12:36)

Pentecost is the Day the Holy Spirit descended upon the apostles as a red cloud. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecost. All the prophets, Saints and the Elect, had and have the Holy Spirit.

[KangarooJack]

WorshippingJesus said to David:

Quote

David, your doctrine denigrates the Holy Spirit as being less than demons and angels and humans.

Exactly!

Jack

[karmarie]

Quote (Mayz @ May 20 2010,19:02)

Also, “No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” Unless you are the Father, Son, or No one, you don't know if Jesus is God, a God in the beginning with Father, “Let us make man in our image” (Genesis 1:26), or Michael the Archangel. Just leave it as a mystery, because we wont know the answer to until we see Jesus return in all His Glory.

Thats true.

I find talking with Trinitarians or non trinitarians are no different. It all is about the same thing in the end. (Unless theyre debating eg here!)

When it says 'let us make man in our image' do you think thats in the physical image or spiritual? I believe its Spiritual image  

Those who worship in Spirit and truth God desires.

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