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- WorshippingJesus,May wrote:
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Hi WJ,You said:
Quote Your question is a non issue that’s why I chose not to answer. What are you trying to prove here? Does the Holy Spirit have a throne? No. Although that was my question to the trinitarians in the “why two thrones” thread I started. You response here is the same lame response you gave there. Doesn't add up to me – THREE equal gods, but only TWO get to sit on thrones.
Anyway, the throne question you have “missed” in this thread is as follows:
I wonder if that verse could mean, “in the name of the Father, and the name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Spirit.”
It is worded as such in Rev, where John says in New Jerusalem there will be the “throne of God, and of the Lamb.”
We could easily read this as only one throne, had we not previously been told there are two.
You replied that the word “name” is singular. Isn't also the word “throne” singular? Yet we know he speaks of two. So once again, does the wording make it absolutely mean only one name?
You said:
Quote Does the Holy Spirit have his own throne? No, but that is not the role of the Holy Spirit is it? The Holy Spirit is ‘Omnipresent”, why does he need a throne? Isn't the Father also “omnipresent”? Why does He need a throne?
You said:
Quote He is subservient to the Father and Jesus. This will come in handy.
You said:
Quote I am glad you agree, but like David you use examples that do not compare, because the three you mention do not have the same name do they? Are you sure your three have the same name?
You said:
Quote Nor are they corporately part of a divine mandate are they? A divine mandate that was never followed in Scripture.
You said:
Quote There you go asking the same question again. See that is what I am talking about. You get an answer but you keep asking the same thing as if you are going to get a different answer. This whole thing started because you said there was not even a hint of a Trinity found in scriptures. Well you were wrong as you can see you now agree that it is a Trinity. That was all I wanted to prove to you that Jesus mentioned a Trinity. See, that is what I'm talking about. Still no real answer. Did Jesus talk about a trinity in respect to “three in one God”? Absolutely not. Are you implying he did? Did Jesus talk about a trinity in respect to “I can mention three things in one sentence”? Sure. Is that all you are saying?
You said:
Quote Now that you see this then the obvious question which no one and especially you have not answered is… - In what way is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit different in their respective nature or ontology?
Is your spirit a separate person inside the WJ “man-head”? Can your spirit live a separate life? Can it run off and go shopping for clothes while you sit at home? Can it post your thoughts about the trinity that you yourself do not tell it to post?
How about your son? While he is in the same “nature” as you, can he be the same being as you? Can he be a separate person in the WJ man-head? I've asked you this before, and your response was, “well, we are not God”. This is lame and you know it. You profess to prove your un-Scriptural theory by saying that while it is against all logic as we understand it, we are not God. Well, Jehovah is not a God of confusion. Your god the trinity, most undoubtedly is, though.
I could argue the same thing to prove that Moses was actually God on earth. Well, Jehovah actually said in that one verse that he would be God to Pharaoh and Aaron. Sure, the rest of Scripture doesn't back it up, but I've got two things on my side. That ONE little verse where Jehovah called him God, and the fallback position of, “so what if it doesn't make sense to us humans – we are not God, are we?”.
Lame, lame, lame. And shame, shame, shame.You said:
Quote - Why does Jesus speak of the three with the definite article and ascribing a single name to the three if he is not at least implying equality of persons?
Why does John speak of two thrones with the definite article and the singular word “throne”? Don't you at least agree with Strong's? He says about Matt 28:19,
“This text, however, taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity.”
You said:
Quote I think it is more like it doesn’t have anything to do with your Arian doctrine seeing that you do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a person, though Jesus says he shares a name with the Father and Jesus. Is your spirit a separate person? Why then would God's be? And you don't even know for sure if the Scripture is legit, let alone it speaks of a single name for the three mentioned.
You said:
Quote Bingo! I just told you how again! But somehow I think you will come back with the same questions since you cannot comprehend this or you are just sticking your head in the sand again, which is it? You see what I'm saying? Told me again? You haven't told me anything real yet. Read your response above and my comment to it. You just refuse to give a real answer.
You said:
Quote First of all, Jesus gives the Apostles a divine mandate to baptize men in the “name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”. So tell my why would Jesus mention the Holy Spirit here if the Holy Spirit does not have authority? First of all, MAYBE, if the Scripture is legit. But a better question is, “Why did none of the apostles follow his “mandate”?
You said:
Quote Secondly, you are totally wrong about the Spirit not having “authority or power”. Do you even read my post here or do you just skim over them? Or better yet, have you even read the whole Bible? Sometimes I skip over the “million word marches” that you post. But I have read the Bible cover to cover twice, and I'm in Jeremiah on my third time through right now.
You said:
Quote In a reply to David I mentioned many cases where the Holy Spirit has authority over the church and in fact empowers the church with authority and power. Cool, let's check them out.
You said:
Quote - At once the Spirit sent him out into the desert, Mk 1:12
Jesus submits to the Holy Spirits leading here. The Holy Spirit “sent” him. This means the Holy Spirit has authority over him doesn’t it Mike? You should learn the scriptures, because like JA your theology is full of holes.
Hmmmm…but didn't you just say, “He is subservient to the Father and Jesus.” I knew this would come in handy.
You said:
Quote - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, “HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, AND BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, whatsoever I have said unto you”. John 14:26
If the Holy Spirit is our guide and he is our teacher then he is over us, isn’t he?
Yet, Jesus said, “13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming.”
Sounds like the Spirit OF God speaks only what God speaks through it. If you don't want your grandson to play football, can your spirit tell him to go ahead and play anyway, against your will?
You said:
Quote I would say that is “authority” wouldn't you Mike? I could go on Mike but I will let you choke on those for awhile. Maybe you should retract your statement, or heck maybe you should trash your Arian theology and start all over again.
The rest of the Scriptures you quoted amount to the same thing. If God's Spirit tells you to do something, it is God telling it to you THROUGH His Spirit.
Heck, maybe you should trash you trinitarian beliefs and follow the word of God. And by “God”, I mean “the only true God”, Jehovah. The Father of Jesus, not the co-equal God with the one who says “the Father is greater” and calls Him “my God”. The owner and possesor of His Spirit. Not the God who is co-equal with a spirit who you claim is subservient to Him and His Son, yet has authority over His Son. The only one of your three gods who doesn't deserve a throne.
Still waiting on a REAL reply to my a/b question from before and to the singular “throne” wording.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (thethinker @ May 14 2010,06:14) To David, Mike and their JW friends Jesus is a true theos while the Father is the only true theos.
Jack, Jack, Jack,How many times must I tell you? Jesus is a god in the sense that Satan is a god. A “mighty one”. But is Satan actually God? No? Well then, neither is Jesus. Stop being silly.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (thethinker @ May 14 2010,10:49) I basically like Mike and I am displeased that you made him look like a fool.
Why, thank you thinker. I like you too.May your trinity bless your heart for that.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:53) Quote (thethinker @ May 14 2010,06:14) To David, Mike and their JW friends Jesus is a true theos while the Father is the only true theos.
Jack, Jack, Jack,How many times must I tell you? Jesus is a god in the sense that Satan is a god. A “mighty one”. But is Satan actually God? No? Well then, neither is Jesus. Stop being silly.
peace and love,
mike
Mike, Mike, MikeGods are worshipped and followed. You say Jesus is “a god” but yet he is not your god!
How does that work Mike? You are playing those word games again. Now you are saying Jesus is a god “in the sense” that satan is a god. Anathema. Where is the scripture for this? Where does the scriptures say Jesus is “a god in a sense”?
Satan is not a god in any sense to a believer or follower of Jesus no more than the “god of Assyria” who was worshipped by King Sennacherib is.
The Apostles didn’t call Jesus their God in a sense!
Websters=Jesus, remember Mike?
Webster’s definition also includes “having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature”, so if Jesus is not your God then that means he doesn’t have “special powers over your life and affairs”, right Mike?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,17:53) Quote (thethinker @ May 14 2010,06:14) To David, Mike and their JW friends Jesus is a true theos while the Father is the only true theos.
Jack, Jack, Jack,How many times must I tell you? Jesus is a god in the sense that Satan is a god. A “mighty one”. But is Satan actually God? No? Well then, neither is Jesus. Stop being silly.
peace and love,
mike
Mike Mike Mike,And how many times do WJ and I have to tell you that satan does not sit at God's right hand? Satan is in the lake of fire as we speak. How many times do we have to tell you that there was no god formed before or after Jehovah? This means that Jesus is God and satan is no god at all.
Even when satan was operative in the world he blinded the minds of men. Jesus reveals His Father to men. So how can you say that Jesus is a god in the sense that satan was a god?
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 15 2010,03:39) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:53) Quote (thethinker @ May 14 2010,06:14) To David, Mike and their JW friends Jesus is a true theos while the Father is the only true theos.
Jack, Jack, Jack,How many times must I tell you? Jesus is a god in the sense that Satan is a god. A “mighty one”. But is Satan actually God? No? Well then, neither is Jesus. Stop being silly.
peace and love,
mike
Mike, Mike, MikeGods are worshipped and followed. You say Jesus is “a god” but yet he is not your god!
How does that work Mike? You are playing those word games again. Now you are saying Jesus is a god “in the sense” that satan is a god. Anathema. Where is the scripture for this? Where does the scriptures say Jesus is “a god in a sense”?
Satan is not a god in any sense to a believer or follower of Jesus no more than the god of Assyria” who was worshipped by King Sennacherib is.
The Apostles didn’t call Jesus their God in a sense!
Websters=Jesus, remember Mike?
Webster’s definition also includes “having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature”, so if Jesus is not your God then that means he doesn’t have “special powers over your life and affairs”, right Mike?
WJ
Keith,Mike is a quite comedian isn't he?
Jack
WorshippingJesus said to Mikeboll:
Quote Satan is not a god in any sense to a believer or follower of Jesus no more than the god of Assyria” who was worshipped by King Sennacherib is. Why on earth does Mike keep coming back for a beating?
thinker
Dear all.
Throne in heaven is not a physical entity. It means 'Position or Source of Power and Authority'.
God permanently occupies that position and grants access to it as pleases him.
Jesus is given full access to the source of that power and authority, granted to him by his Father.
Does that then mean that he, jesus, is IN THAT Position of Power and Authority?
Or does it just means that he is in possession of that P&A to wield as needs be?
Jesus is not ruling AS Jehovah God. He is ruling as Jesus Christ, “At the Right Hand of Power”, ruling from his own throne (position of Power and authority) OVER his Fathers kingdom (Matthew 26: 29)(Draw a picture!)
Therefore, when all is complete, He hands HIS FATHER's [reconciled] Kingdom (The Kingdom of God:”Thy Kingdom Come”) back to HIS Father, back to God (But Trinis say Jesus IS God – …!) along with the P&A (But if Jesus IS GOD why doesn't he have that Same P&A?) that was granted (Why Does God 'grant' his Co-Equal God, His own P&A) him.Quote (JustAskin @ May 15 2010,04:49) Dear all. Throne in heaven is not a physical entity. It means 'Position or Source of Power and Authority'.
God permanently occupies that position and grants access to it as pleases him.
Jesus is given full access to the source of that power and authority, granted to him by his Father.
Does that then mean that he, jesus, is IN THAT Position of Power and Authority?
Or does it just means that he is in possession of that P&A to wield as needs be?
Jesus is not ruling AS Jehovah God. He is ruling as Jesus Christ, “At the Right Hand of Power”, ruling from his own throne (position of Power and authority) OVER his Fathers kingdom (Matthew 26: 29)(Draw a picture!)
Therefore, when all is complete, He hands HIS FATHER's [reconciled] Kingdom (The Kingdom of God:”Thy Kingdom Come”) back to HIS Father, back to God (But Trinis say Jesus IS God – …!) along with the P&A (But if Jesus IS GOD why doesn't he have that Same P&A?) that was granted (Why Does God 'grant' his Co-Equal God, His own P&A) him.
TO ALL:The scripture teaches that Jesus purchased the kingdom with His own blood. This means that He owns the kingdom and is therefore absolutely sovereign over His kingdom just as any owner is absolutely sovereign over His own property.
In Jude 4 Jesus is called our “only MASTER”. The anti-trinitarian NWT says that He is our “only OWNER.” The Greek word is “despotes” from which we get our word “despot”. According to Strong's Concordance the word “despotes” means “absolute ruler” (# 1203). According to the English Dictionary a “despot” is an “absolute monarch.”
So the idea of ABSOLUTE authority is inherent in the word “despotes.” Jesus is our “only ABSOLUTE ruler.” So JA can say until he is blue in the face that the Father “gave” Jesus His authority. It does not change the fact that Jesus Christ is our only despot. And it does not change the fact that Christ's Father “gave” Jesus all authority and power on the two-fold grounds that it was His birthright and that He purchased it for Himself.
JA is not interested in what Christ's position as ABSOLUTE RULER means but only in how He acquired His authority. This is JA's way of dancing around the fact that Jesus is ABSLOUTE RULER OVER ALL!
thinker
Hi,
So this verse has nothing comparable in scripture to back it up and Bishop Eusebius tells us it was not written this way in the earliest manuscripts but as 'baptising them in my name”WJ,
Don't tell TT but can you pm me and let me know what is up with your boy?I feel that even you are irritated by his, ..his… Um…inaccurat ranting.
Why are you not drawing him to oneside and asking him to 'Chill Winstan! It's only your spiritual life y'ur throwing away'
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2010,16:05) Hi,
So this verse has nothing comparable in scripture to back it up and Bishop Eusebius tells us it was not written this way in the earliest manuscripts but as 'baptising them in my name”
Hi all!Nick would rather believe a rumor rather than the inspired words of our Lord written and found in every extant manuscript i.e. Matthew 28:19!
Nicks previous comment about Jacks post being “mans foolish theology” shows his continued disdain for the word of God and the truth!
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ May 14 2010,16:18) WJ,
Don't tell TT but can you pm me and let me know what is up with your boy?I feel that even you are irritated by his, ..his… Um…inaccurat ranting.
Why are you not drawing him to oneside and asking him to 'Chill Winstan! It's only your spiritual life y'ur throwing away'
JAThe problem with you is you have been beaten by the truth that Jack speaks concerning Jesus being owner and possesor of all things. You can't even confess the scriptures that tell you Jesus bought you and is your “Only Owner”!
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ May 15 2010,08:18) WJ,
Don't tell TT but can you pm me and let me know what is up with your boy?I feel that even you are irritated by his, ..his… Um…inaccurat ranting.
Why are you not drawing him to oneside and asking him to 'Chill Winstan! It's only your spiritual life y'ur throwing away'
JA,Stop the ranting and just address my points. In Jude 4 Jesus Christ is called our “only despot”. The NWT says “only owner.” Strong's Concordance says that the Greek “despotes” means “ABSOLUTE ruler” (# 1203). Funk and Wagnall's Dictionary says that a despot is an “ABSOLUTE monarch.”
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 15 2010,08:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2010,16:05) Hi,
So this verse has nothing comparable in scripture to back it up and Bishop Eusebius tells us it was not written this way in the earliest manuscripts but as 'baptising them in my name”
Hi all!Nick would rather believe a rumor rather than the inspired words of our Lord written and found in every extant manuscript i.e. Matthew 28:19!
Nicks previous comment about Jacks post being “mans foolish theology” shows his continued disdain for the word of God and the truth!
WJ
Keith,Nick is not interested in truth as you say. The Critical Text which is based in the oldest manuscripts read, “Into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
thinker
Hi WJ,
Starting from catholic theology and searching for possible support for their trinity can never bear good fruit.TT,
You are our only Despot.
WJ, every time I plead with you for mercy for yourself, you throw it back in my face.
Do you still not realise that it is your own face that you are throwing it back into…
Have you not yet cottoned on?
How many times can I say, 'WJ, I AM YOU'.
What you think you are doing to me is what you are doing to yourself!
TT is going to get more spiteful as he realises he could be losing you. This shows exactly thst he is not one to align yourself with.
Do not use him as your crutch, he will break under you, his crutch is full of beetle grub holes.
Do not be afraid to let go of him, God will bless you for it.
Do you see what is written about Onesimus in Philemon 1?
Onesimus stole from his master, Philemon, and fled to Rome. But he somehow came across Paul, who converted him to God's truth and Onesimus became 'Begotten' of Paul. Paul pleads with Philemon to accept Onesimus back…
WJ, you have stolen God's word (and adulterated it). I have found you and am desperate to convert to, and I see that you are ripe for it.
WJ, take the step, you will not regret it, ditch TT's foul fish, it will give you gut rot.
I am pleading already to God to accept you when you turn, to forgive the stolen adulterated words.
WJ, do you ever pray? Who do you pray to? What do you pray for?
WJ,
By the way. How do you say TT has beaten me on something I never answered.
The question is not mine but to another. TT can't beat that one so he is trying to draw me into it to maybe hope for success there.Once again, you have slipped under TT and let him lead you astray… Beat me … It is not Me he needs to beat, it is his own deceiving spirit.
WJ,
Once again you try to 'beat me' but once again you end up 'beating yourself'!
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