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Mike,
If you are going to judge me as anything but honestly trying to answer you with sincere integrity, then this conversation is wasting my valuable time.
If you want to continue this discussion, you can show me that by treating me with respect and assuming that I am genuinely trying to thoughtfully respond to your posts in a sincere and honest way. It may take patience on both of our parts and it may take a lot of clarification but it will sharpen us if we let it.
Otherwise, I will wait till you do want to continue with mutual respect which will be free of negative opinions of the intents of the other. I really do not have time for making things difficult, nor do I have a desire to do so with being anything but honest and sincere. I have no time for games.
So what will it be, mutual respect and giving the other the benefit of the doubt or you continuing to make negative declarations of my intentions that are far from accurate and that you have no way of knowing. What you claim to be sure of has been far from correct when it comes to my intentions in the posts you have written today. I should know.
LU: So what will it be, mutual respect and giving the other the benefit of the doubt or you continuing to make negative declarations of my intentions that are far from accurate and that you have no way of knowing.
Kathi, if you are telling me now that when I asked for other examples where we have to decide who is speaking like we have to always decide which Yahweh spoke during any particular quote, and you honestly thought that not knowing the writer of a particular book or psalm or whatever was comparable, then I believe you and apologize for saying you were being disingenuous.
Yes, let’s carry on with mutual respect as we’ve done for 10 years.
I accept you apology for assuming that I was being disingenuous. Before going further here, I would like to address your words lamblasting me here which were put on your Yahweh Unity thread.
Mike said to LU:
And where do you expect to discuss the Targum with Adam? Will you just rudely keep spamming my “gods” thread and other threads with your doctrine? Where will Proclaimer offer his two cents on your doctrine? Or Gene? Will those comments be forced into my “gods” thread too?
This is unfair to everyone, Kathi. I consider it to be a cowardly move on your part. Shame on you.
Let me just say this, I answered your question in the many gods thread, you asked for further defense of my understanding and every post that I made to you or Adam or otherwise was meant to continue the support of my answer to the question YOU asked in the opening post. The Targums actually do have something to do with your gods thread, btw. I will answer Adam’s or Proclaimer’s questions if I’m aware of them but it is up to them to make sure that I have seen them. Perhaps in the future, you could just ask me what my post, whatever that may be, has to do with the topic instead of claim that I “rudely keep spamming” your thread, actually I am asked questions in whatever thread and I answer them in the same thread-a lot of them are YOUR questions, btw, so if you feel that what I believe doesn’t belong in a particular thread then look at who is promoting the conversation and see that often you are. Anything I say about the divinity of the Father and the Son as YHVH, is applicable to most of the threads on here or the comments and claims made on that particular thread. Btw, you keep calling it my doctrine. Are you not aware that most churches agree with the Father being called YHVH as well as the Son and they are in unity as one Godhead?
Now, can you show me the posts that I make in your thread or other threads that you claim are spam, i.e. have nothing to do with the topic, nothing at all and what I should be so ashamed of? Then I can explain how they do, or explain why I wrote them so you can read with a spirit of understanding in the future. This needs to be addressed before we continue with “getting to the bottom of my doctrine.” Thanks.
I thought this would be a fantastic and WELCOMED opportunity for you to educate us all on the scriptural accuracy and enlightenment of your doctrine. It currently seems to me that you’re more interested in hoops that I must jump through before you agree to discuss what I thought you’d be champing at the bit to discuss.
Okay, here goes…
Kathi, you solicited Adam about the Targums before he said anything to you in the “Gods” thread. And he even responded by asking what the Targums have to do with the many gods of the Bible we were discussing in that thread.
You also linked a video: “Who is the Higher Power YHVH Elohim” – which certainly doesn’t sound like a video pertaining to the question of the thread: Does the Bible teach of many different gods?
Then, when I mentioned 2 Cor 4:4 to Proclaimer, you responded – not by acknowledging or refuting that Satan was another of the many gods in the Bible like I was showing Proclaimer – but by steering it back to your “Jesus is God” doctrine by asking who the god is that has all authority in heaven and on earth?
You did answer my first question by saying the “us” in Gen 1:26 was “YHVH”. And I asked for clarification since only one was speaking, and you believe YHVH to be two persons. Then I was confused when you said the speaker was the Father, and that the Son did the creative act, because the Son is the one called “the Word”, and scripture is clear that the Father created man.
So yes, that part was my fault for veering from the topic to demonstrate how scripturally inaccurate your claim was – but then I quickly caught myself and suggested that we dedicate another thread solely to your doctrine, so we could keep my thread dedicated to whether or not the Bible teaches about many different gods…
That question above (middle paragraph) still awaits your response in the “Gods” thread.
At any rate, if you don’t consider the three separate instances I mentioned above “spamming” my thread which has very little to do with Yahweh, but is meant to be about the other gods in the Bible BESIDES Yahweh – then in an effort to finally get THIS discussion going, I again apologize for calling it spam.
And if you can show me any church that teaches your doctrine – where Yahweh is a “Unity of Spirit” of the Father and the Son, but NOT the Holy Spirit as a third person – then I will not apologize, but admit that there exists an organization with this doctrine as one of their fundamental principles. And even then, I would continue to call it “your doctrine”, because even if there were such a church with a billion followers, it is still the doctrine to which you adhere, and therefore “your doctrine”.
My doctrine says Jesus is not God, but the son, servant, prophet, priest, messiah, and sacrificial lamb OF God. I’m not the only one who believes this by any means, but it remains “my doctrine” because it is the one to which I subscribe. Just like “my team” might be the AZ Cardinals, while “your team” may be the Carolina Panthers.
Okay, now that all that stuff is hopefully handled, we can actually get to discussing your doctrine again…
Okay, we’re currently waiting for you to produce other scriptural instances where a named person is quoted or has an action attributed to him, and we have to pick and choose out of two possibilities who that person actually is.
And we’re waiting for an example where a group of more than one person is referred to as “he” in the Bible.
More corrections:
Mike you said:
Kathi, you solicited Adam about the Targums before he said anything to you in the “Gods” thread. And he even responded by asking what the Targums have to do with the many gods of the Bible we were discussing in that thread.
Adam did not respond in a way that you say. this was our little conversation:
LU: Hi Adam,
Have I asked you if you have read the Jewish Targums? Do you know about them?
Adam: Hi sis Kathi, yes you had asked on Targums in other thread “Jewish Messiah”.Ok, what do you want from them on this new thread on “Many Gods of the Bible”?
I then answered Adam and he has not replied unless I missed that post. So, Mike do you see how you twisted what Adam said. He was not asking what the Targums had to do with the topic on that thread. He was confirming that I had brought the Targums up in another thread and wanted to know what I want to say about them on the “Many Gods of the Bible” thread.
As much as I would like to stop having to correct you and move on, you once again need correction. You are correct that Adam didn’t address me before I asked him about the Targums but he has a very different opinion about who YHVH is, as do you and I was addressing that which has to do with your first question. The Targums help point out that the term ” Word of the LORD” is often interchanged for the name “YHVH.” Since the Targums recognize the Word of the LORD as YHVH, in some sense (to some of the writers of the Targums), and YHVH is God and your thread is about Gods, then me introducing the Targums into your thread is on point.
Another correction: (again, I don’t want to have to keep correcting you but you need correcting, so in the future, if you want to get to the topic of the YHVH Unity, be more careful with your words, make them factual, not making things up that aren’t there.
You said: You also linked a video: “Who is the Higher Power YHVH Elohim” – which certainly doesn’t sound like a video pertaining to the question of the thread: Does the Bible teach of many different gods?
You said this was the question of your thread “Does the Bible teach of many different gods?” Show me where that is the title or even the first question of the thread. Your “intent” would have been more clear if you titled the thread with that question but you didn’t. My posts relate to the title of your thread. If you titled it wrong, that is on you…own that.
Also, regarding the video I linked to on your thread, you said in your last post here that it doesn’t sound like it pertains to the thread, but indeed it does pertain to the thread and it addresses your question in your first post, again, right on point for the topic. You should watch it before you question it’s validity as important to that thread. Be factual, stop assuming because you are often wrong when addressing me.
Another correction:
You said: Then, when I mentioned 2 Cor 4:4 to Proclaimer, you responded – not by acknowledging or refuting that Satan was another of the many gods in the Bible like I was showing Proclaimer – but by steering it back to your “Jesus is God” doctrine by asking who the god is that has all authority in heaven and on earth?
You would understand that the question that I asked following the 2 Cor 4:4 mention, definitely pertains to what I believe is your misunderstanding of who the God of this age is in 2 Cor 4:4.
You said: So yes, that part was my fault for veering from the topic to demonstrate how scripturally inaccurate your claim was…
Please show me where you think you did that, I would love to evaluate that opinion.
You show me your “intent” here on page 3 of your thread:
But I’d really like to not turn this thread into another Yahweh Unity, Trinity, or preexistent discussion. This thread is intended to be ONLY about whether or not there are many gods in the Bible, and the scriptures that support everybody’s conclusions.
All my responses on your many gods thread are regarding two of the gods listed in the Bible, YHVH Elohim, Father and Son, i.e. the unseen God and the only begotten God of John 1:18. There are others mentioned but they are not “for us” as Paul says in 2 Cor 6. It is not possible for the Father and the Son not to be mentioned/discussed when you make claims that the elohim mentioned are not them. If you are not corrected INSIDE your thread, you will be showing and possibly leading others into confusion, surely you don’t want to do that, right? You want to talk about the gods of the Bible yet you credit them with what YHVH elohim does but try to prohibit YHVH elohim from being discussed. Not while I’m here, sorry.
Do you think that I can’t easily show you many churches that believe that the Father and the Son and Spirit are all called by the name YHVH and part of one Godhead? That is what I agree with and claim that most Christian churches also agree with. That is what I can show you if you want but it kinda wastes our time if you really know that already.
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Mike,
You said:
Okay, we’re currently waiting for you to produce other scriptural instances where a named person is quoted or has an action attributed to him, and we have to pick and choose out of two possibilities who that person actually is.
And we’re waiting for an example where a group of more than one person is referred to as “he” in the Bible.
First of all, who is the “we” you refer to as waiting for me to produce other scriptural instances where a named person is quoted or has an action attributed to him…Speak for yourself, Mike. This discussion is between you and me, not me and many. You once again assume that others are waiting to read my answers, just represent yourself and that will be a true. You do not represent anybody else here in this discussion.
Secondly why should I defend your limited understanding of what I said instead of what I actually said? I am happy to defend what I said, not your limited understanding. Again, this is what I said after what you said:
Kathi, your doctrine calls for you to pick and choose which member of the Yahweh Unity is speaking or acting each and every time the Bible says Yahweh or God said or did something.
What if I join your belief system/religion? Would I then have equal say in the question of which Yahweh was speaking or acting in any given scripture?
LU said: The whole Bible calls for the reader to follow along and seek to understand who is speaking and to whom. Nothing new when it comes to the words of the YHVH Unity.
We have to use discernment within the context in every passage as we seek to be led to understanding by the Holy Spirit.
Now, that being said, we do have to use discernment within the context in every passage as we seek to be led to understanding by the Holy Spirit. Do you disagree with that statement as written?
Mike: Kathi, your doctrine calls for you to pick and choose which member of the Yahweh Unity is speaking or acting each and every time the Bible says Yahweh or God said or did something.
LU: The whole Bible calls for the reader to follow along and seek to understand who is speaking and to whom. Nothing new when it comes to the words of the YHVH Unity.
I disagree that the scriptures contain instances where a person is quoted or has an action attributed to him and we have to seek to understand who is speaking or acting. I disagree with your statement that this is “nothing new”, and with your implication that the whole Bible calls for this kind of discernment. I can’t remember ever once having to discern who was talking or acting after it was stated that a certain named person spoke or acted.
Are you able to provide any such instance in the entire Bible (aside from your own understanding of Yahweh) where a named person is quoted or has an action attributed to him, and we have to pick and choose between two options which person is actually doing the speaking or acting.
I have also asked for an instance in scripture where a group of two or more persons are identified with the singular masculine pronoun “he”.
Thanks.
Hi Mike,
Please address my last two posts to you. I want to see that you understand the corrections that I wrote to you. Then I will address your last post here. Thanks!
Nope. I’ve already jumped through enough hoops and feigned enough apologies for things that YOU did wrong. For someone who wants to promote her doctrine so much that she spams every other thread with it, you sure don’t seem very anxious to start actually discussing it in the thread that YOU created for that very purpose. I wonder why. 🤔
I suspect it might be because my very first two questions already have you stumped, and have already exposed your doctrine for the silliness that it is. I promise you, it will only get worse for you from here.
So on second thought, maybe you’re right to keep making up excuses for why we can’t get on with the actual discussion.
That way you can continue to be like Gene, forever popping in to various threads, claiming nonsense like, “John 17:5 is talking about the thought of Jesus in God’s mind being with God before the world began” – and then just run and hide when someone tries to corner you and force you to stand and defend your nonsensical claim.
It’s time to either put on your big girl pants and stand to defend your doctrine, or run away crying like a scared little girl because mean old Mike didn’t kiss your ass and say pretty please enough times.
Listen up missy… nobody in their right mind would have thought you were being ingenuous by pretending that me asking for other examples of you picking and choosing which Yahweh was speaking or acting during any given scripture would include not knowing for sure who wrote Hebrews. And then even after you gave that answer, and I told you that it wasn’t what I was asking for, you “answered” my request a second time by QUOTING from Hebrews – the very thing I had just told you I WASN’T talking about.
And nobody in their right mind would think you are being ingenuous when you try to pretend that my thread about the MANY gods of the Bible was just another regular thread centering on Yahweh – like every other thread on this site does. Any idiot can discern within minutes that the thread is to discuss the MANY gods in the Bible – the ones that many people insist don’t exist.
And nobody in their right mind would think you are being ingenuous when you try to pretend that you’re just innocently mentioning your silly Yahweh Unity as it happens to come up in that thread about the MANY gods of the Bible.
YOU asked Adam about the Targums because YOU wanted to introduce YOUR doctrine and you erroneously think the Targums help you. It had nothing to do with the obvious topic of MANY gods in the Bible.
And Adam shut you down by saying you and he had talked about the Targums, and asking what they had to do with that thread. Kathi, he went out of his way to NAME the title of the thread in his answer… as a way of asking you politely why you’d bring that stuff up in a thread that is clearly about the MANY gods in the Bible.
And YOU posted a video that promotes YOUR silly doctrine – and has nothing to do with the fact that the Bible is filled with tons of gods other than Yahweh – which is the obvious reason I started that thread – as anyone who read the TITLE of the thread would know. After all, the thread is not called, “Who Exactly Comprises Yahweh God?”.
So if anyone here owes anyone else an apology, it’s you, not me. My apologizing days are over. The ass kissing is over. Either get on with the discussion or bugger off. I don’t need you to be involved to destroy your doctrine anyway. I was just trying to give you a perfect place to explain it fully and show us how well it holds up to scrutiny. Either take that opportunity or don’t.
There are two requests waiting on you right now. There are many more in the lineup. Either stand and defend your silly doctrine or take your ball and go home because the other guy isn’t playing by your rules. It matters very little to me either way.
Mike,
You said:
I’ve already jumped through enough hoops and feigned enough apologies for things that YOU did wrong.
Show me one time that you “feigned and apology for something I did wrong.”
You said:
For someone who wants to promote her doctrine so much that she spams every other thread with it…
Show me where you think I did this other than the ones that I have already debunked.
You said:
you sure don’t seem very anxious to start actually discussing it in the thread that YOU created for that very purpose. I wonder why.
I told you, no need to wonder. It is because I have to keep correcting you before I can move on.
I suspect it might be because my very first two questions already have you stumped, and have already exposed your doctrine for the silliness that it is.
Nope, not stumped, I have verses waiting till you have acknowledged that you have been in error in the ways I pointed out to you.
So on second thought, maybe you’re right to keep making up excuses for why we can’t get on with the actual discussion.
Not making excuses, just calling out your errors so you can see them and acknowledge them.
and then just run and hide when someone tries to corner you and force you to stand and defend your nonsensical claim.
I’m still here, not running, not hiding, just waiting for you to acknowledge your errors in order to talk about the YHVH Unity.
It’s time to either put on your big girl pants and stand to defend your doctrine, or run away crying like a scared little girl because mean old Mike didn’t kiss your ass and say pretty please enough times.
I’ve been defending it for over a decade on here. It seems that you are running from your errors that I have pointed out. Put on your little boy pants and acknowledge them so we can continue or are you too proud?
nobody in their right mind would have thought you were being ingenuous by pretending that me asking for other examples of you picking and choosing which Yahweh was speaking or acting during any given scripture would include not knowing for sure who wrote Hebrews. And then even after you gave that answer, and I told you that it wasn’t what I was asking for, you “answered” my request a second time by QUOTING from Hebrews – the very thing I had just told you I WASN’T talking about.
How do you know everybody’s mind?
And nobody in their right mind would think you are being ingenuous when you try to pretend that my thread about the MANY gods of the Bible was just another regular thread centering on Yahweh – like every other thread on this site does. Any idiot can discern within minutes that the thread is to discuss the MANY gods in the Bible – the ones that many people insist don’t exist.
Prove it. Your first post is about YHVH.
And nobody in their right mind would think you are being ingenuous when you try to pretend that you’re just innocently mentioning your silly Yahweh Unity as it happens to come up in that thread about the MANY gods of the Bible.
Is that a fact or opinion?
YOU asked Adam about the Targums because YOU wanted to introduce YOUR doctrine and you erroneously think the Targums help you. It had nothing to do with the obvious topic of MANY gods in the Bible.
Are you afraid to look into the Targums maybe?
And Adam shut you down by saying you and he had talked about the Targums, and asking what they had to do with that thread.
So you are doing poorly on comprehension even when I quoted his words to you. Maybe reread them.
And YOU posted a video that promotes YOUR silly doctrine – and has nothing to do with the fact that the Bible is filled with tons of gods other than Yahweh – which is the obvious reason I started that thread – as anyone who read the TITLE of the thread would know. After all, the thread is not called, “Who Exactly Comprises Yahweh God?”.
Your title does not exclude YHVH. If you didn’t want to talk about YHVH, why is your first question:
Genesis 1:26… Then God said, “Let US make man in OUR image…
Who is the “US” and the “OUR” in the above verse?
If I believe the answer is YHVH, should I not answer you? Are you for some reason afraid of YHVH being the elohim that asked that question in Gen 1:26. It is silly to say the thread is obviously about gods other than YHVH and then quote YHVH in the first post and ask who is saying that. Own that you did that. You introduced a quote that most scholars believe to be YHVH elohim’s quote yet you did not want to talk about YHVH??? Please tell me you are comprehending your error.
I’ll wait, not running off. I have verses ready and waiting. If you choose not to acknowledge your errors, why would I want to discuss anything with you? Have you thought of that? Mercy.
LU: Nope, not stumped, I have verses waiting till you have acknowledged that you have been in error in the ways I pointed out to you.
Well, there will be no such “acknowledgement” of any alleged “errors”. Your accusations are way off base. As one example, if I believe you are spamming my thread with nonsensical crap that doesn’t belong there, then I have the right to tell you to stop spamming my thread with that crap. You also have the right to disagree with my assessment, and make a case that you don’t consider what you did to be spamming my thread with unrelated stuff.
And that’s where it ends, Kathi. Neither one of us has the right to FORCE the other person see the event their way. I can’t COERCE you into admitting that I was right about the spamming and you were wrong by saying that I’m not going to do this other thing that you want me to do unless you see things my way and admit what I want you to admit – when you clearly DON’T agree with my assessment of the events or that you did anything wrong.
Same with Adam’s response to you. I clearly and honestly see his words as being those of a man who is baffled as to why you’d bring X up in a thread about Y. (It’s also clear that you DIDN’T bring X up to show how the Targums contain clear teachings on the many different gods of the Bible, right?) It’s okay that you don’t see Adam’s response the same way as I do. But I’ll be damned if I’m going to allow you to COERCE me into pretending that I DO see it your way – just so we can get on with this discussion that YOU started.
Listen… I truly believe you were being very disingenuous by appealing to Hebrews as a way to address my request… especially after you did it the SECOND time. But I feigned an apology for something I still know in my heart I was right about – just to appease you. And then I did it again for the spamming – which I still believe is exactly what you did.
So I retract those two fake apologies, because I stand by my original conclusions. You have the right to “expose” me by saying I don’t know your heart/intent, or that it wasn’t really spamming, or whatever else you’d like to claim in your defense. But you will NEVER have the right to FORCE me into admitting I was in error when I don’t believe I was.
And the worst thing is that you could have kept your two “apologies” and moved on. We are only at this point now because I began to realize that you weren’t about to stop at just two “apologies”… it was going to go on and on and on – until you were satisfied that I “admitted” fault for each and every event that we saw differently in the past couple of weeks.
So here we are… You’ve just lost your two fake apologies. We both still see the events differently. I haven’t changed my mind about my original conclusions and statements. You aren’t about to change your mind and admit that you were the one at fault.
So now what? Are you going to stop whining about things you can’t change and start discussing your doctrine?
Mike,
You said: But I feigned an apology for something I still know in my heart I was right about – just to appease you. And then I did it again for the spamming – which I still believe is exactly what you did.
Thank you for admitting that you lied about that. I will wait for someone who has the integrity to be truthful, someone who shows good comprehension skills, someone who is willing to consider and admit when they are wrong and change that wrong behavior, and someone who can show respect.
My time is valuable. I’m sorry it didn’t work out with you, Mike, you are not that person. If you want to become that person, I will be happy to discuss and invest my time for your benefit regarding what I believe to be true especially the fact that Jesus is YHVH our Righteousness, our only begotten God who is one with the Father and is the God of this age who has all authority in heaven and on earth. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is LORD, even you will have no where to turn except admit that someday.
So if any other member is reading this that believes that they fit that description and wants to discuss the Unity of YHVH which I believe is the answer to most every topic on HN, let me know and I look forward to offering what I believe the Spirit has shown me.
Blessings, LU
Mike: I retract those two fake apologies, because I stand by my original conclusions. You have the right to “expose” me by saying I don’t know your heart/intent, or that it wasn’t really spamming, or whatever else you’d like to claim in your defense. But you will NEVER have the right to FORCE me into admitting I was in error when I don’t believe I was.
So now what? Are you going to stop whining about things you can’t change and start discussing your doctrine?
LU: I will wait for someone who… is willing to consider and admit when they are wrong…
So I guess you’ve decided on continuing to whine about things you can’t change, huh? What a joke! 😅🤣😂 All you want to do bitch about imagined wrongs that other people have committed against you. You don’t actually want to discuss your nonsensical doctrine. You bitched when I described it as a “binary God” – even though that’s exactly what you believe in. You bitched when I exposed your bias in the way you understand “Yahweh is our Righteousness” one way in one scripture, and another way in the other scripture – even though that’s exactly what you do because you WANT Jesus to be Yahweh, but you DON’T want the City of Jerusalem to be Yahweh.
And believe it or not, that’s the very FOUNDATION of your entire doctrine! A forthcoming city and a forthcoming ruler that will both be called “Yahweh is our Righteousness”! And from that you built a completely unscriptural doctrine from the ground up! Too funny.
Of course I already crushed your doctrine the moment I made you admit that you had to pick and choose which Yahweh said the words in Gen 1:26, and which Yahweh did the creative work. Hint: If your doctrine makes you pick and choose which of your gods is saying or doing something every single time in the Bible, then it’s not a very viable doctrine.
And then on top of that, you PICKED the wrong one anyway – as I immediately demonstrated with a few scriptures. Actually, Deut 32:6 was the only scripture needed to expose the CHOICE you made as the wrong one.
And the only response you could make after being exposed is that Moses just didn’t understand the “Yahweh Unity” as clearly then as you do now! Oh brother! 😅
LU: So if any other member is reading this that believes that they fit that description and wants to discuss the Unity of YHVH which I believe is the answer to most every topic on HN, let me know and I look forward to offering what I believe the Spirit has shown me.
Oh my gosh! 😁 I actually started an OPEN thread about your silly doctrine where everyone could join in and scripturally show you just how silly it is… but YOU bitched about that too – saying I shouldn’t have done that without your permission! And now YOU’RE the one inviting the others in to the PRIVATE thread that YOU started because you were afraid to defend your doctrine in the PUBLIC thread that I started?
Kathi, we don’t really need this discussion anymore, because I destroyed your doctrine with just a few choice questions and scriptures already. I exposed it for the nonsense that it is, and then let the scriptures themselves kill it dead.
So thanks for the chat.
Oh, and never forget that if you can make up a doctrine about Jesus being a part of some “Yahweh Unity” just because he is called “Yahweh is our Righteousness”, then I can build my own doctrine about the entire City of Jerusalem being a part of some “Yahweh Unity” too – because it is called by the same exact title. And the best part? My doctrine would be exactly as scriptural as yours is!
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