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Jodi,
You said:
Applying the surrounding context to a word as well as the truth given from all other scriptures, is how you determine the correct meaning of a word that holds multiple meanings.
Agree, and that is why the word should be translated as “angels.”
Jodi,
You said: YLT SUPPORTS MY VIEW, a word that means messenger should be translated as messenger!
Your view says that Heb 1 is about earthly messengers, not celestial messengers. YLT calls celestial angels “messengers”. For instance, see here throughout this passage, the angel is called a messenger in the YLT translation:
11And there appeared to him a messenger of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of the perfume, 12and Zacharias, having seen, was troubled, and fear fell on him; 13and the messenger said unto him, ‘Fear not, Zacharias, for thy supplication was heard, and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear a son to thee, and thou shalt call his name John, 14and there shall be joy to thee, and gladness, and many at his birth shall joy, 15for he shall be great before the Lord, and wine and strong drink he may not drink, and of the Holy Spirit he shall be full, even from his mother’s womb; 16and many of the sons of Israel he shall turn to the Lord their God, 17and he shall go before Him, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn hearts of fathers unto children, and disobedient ones to the wisdom of righteous ones, to make ready for the Lord, a people prepared.’
18And Zacharias said unto the messenger, ‘Whereby shall I know this? for I am aged, and my wife is advanced in her days?’ 19And the messenger answering said to him, ‘I am Gabriel, who have been standing near before God, and I was sent to speak unto thee, and to proclaim these good news to thee, 20and lo, thou shalt be silent, and not able to speak, till the day that these things shall come to pass, because thou didst not believe my words, that shall be fulfilled in their season.’
21And the people were waiting for Zacharias, and wondering at his tarrying in the sanctuary, 22and having come out, he was not able to speak to them, and they perceived that a vision he had seen in the sanctuary, and he was beckoning to them, and did remain dumb. 23And it came to pass, when the days of his service were fulfilled, he went away to his house,
24and after those days, his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying — 25‘Thus hath the Lord done to me, in days in which He looked upon [me], to take away my reproach among men.’
The Birth of Jesus Foretold
26And in the sixth month was the messenger Gabriel sent by God, to a city of Galilee, the name of which [is] Nazareth, 27to a virgin, betrothed to a man, whose name [is] Joseph, of the house of David, and the name of the virgin [is] Mary. 28And the messenger having come in unto her, said, ‘Hail, favoured one, the Lord [is] with thee; blessed [art] thou among women;’ 29and she, having seen, was troubled at his word, and was reasoning of what kind this salutation may be. 30And the messenger said to her, ‘Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favour with God; 31and lo, thou shalt conceive in the womb, and shalt bring forth a son, and call his name Jesus; 32he shall be great, and Son of the Highest he shall be called, and the Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father, 33and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.’ 34And Mary said unto the messenger, ‘How shall this be, seeing a husband I do not know?’ 35And the messenger answering said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God; 36and lo, Elisabeth, thy kinswoman, she also hath conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month to her who was called barren; 37because nothing shall be impossible with God.’ 38And Mary said, ‘Lo, the maid-servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to thy saying,’ and the messenger went away from her.
Jodi, do you agree that the YLT in the above passage uses the word “messenger” for a celestial angel and not an earthly prophet or earthly man?
Hi LU,
Paul in Hebrews 1:7 is quoting Psalms 104:4. Do some reading find understanding as the OT as well as the NT I believe confirms my position.
Psalms 147: 11 The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy. 12 Praise the LORD, O Jerusalem; praise thy God, O Zion. 13 For he hath strengthened the bars of thy gates; he hath blessed thy children within thee. 14 He maketh peace in thy borders, and filleth thee with the finest of the wheat. 15 He sendeth forth his commandment upon earth: his word runneth very swiftly.
Psalms 149: 4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation. 5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. 6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand; 7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; 8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; 9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
Isaiah 66: 15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Psalms 37: 39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble. 40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.
Psalms 103: 19 Jehovah in the heavens Hath established His throne, And His kingdom over all hath ruled. 20 Bless Jehovah, ye His messengers, Mighty in power — doing His word, To hearken to the voice of His word. 21 Bless Jehovah, all ye His hosts, His ministers –– doing His pleasure. 22 Bless Jehovah, all ye His works, In all places of His dominion. Bless, O my soul, Jehovah!
Psalms 104: 3 Who is laying the beam of His upper chambers in the waters, Who is making thick clouds His chariot, Who is walking on wings of wind, 4 Making His messengers — the winds, His ministers — the flaming fire. 5 He hath founded earth on its bases, It is not moved to the age and for ever. 6 The abyss! as with clothing Thou hast covered it, Above hills do waters stand. 7 From Thy rebuke they flee, From the voice of Thy thunder haste away.
33 I sing to Jehovah during my life, I sing praise to my God while I exist. 34 Sweet is my meditation on Him, I — I do rejoice in Jehovah. 35 Consumed are sinners from the earth, And the wicked are no more. Bless, O my soul, Jehovah. Praise ye Jehovah!
1 Thes 3: 13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Jude 1: 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Hebrews 1: 6 and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith,
And let them bow before him -- all messengers of God;' 7 <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith,Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;’Read again,
Isaiah 66: 15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Psalms 149: 4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation. 5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. 6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand; 7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; 8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; 9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
LU,
I clearly established that YLT translates Mal’ak (messenger) and Anggelos (messenger), to the word messenger. You have agreed that one must look at the surrounding text as well as the support of other passages to determine which messenger the original authors were referring to for each given scripture. By such, NOT every time we read the word messenger does it mean it is talking about a celestial messenger just as every time we read messenger it does not mean a human messenger, hence exactly why I said one must look at the surrounding text…etc. So in other words, should be obvious to you that my stance is that just as a human messenger is called a messenger a celestial messenger is called a messenger.
I am not sure what you thought you were trying to prove by giving me other passages that speak of messengers. The same criteria applies, you look at the surrounding text to know if the author was speaking of a celestial messenger or a human messenger. I’m just baffled by that post, it’s like you took know time to think, you were making a point I already established. Your post did nothing at all to support your stance that the messengers in Hebrews 1 were celestial messengers.
Do you realize where the English word Angel comes from?
Old English engel, ultimately via ecclesiastical Latin from Greek angelos ‘messenger’; superseded in Middle English by forms from Old French angele .
The English word ANGEL if we are going to be of truth, doesn’t solely represent a celestial messenger, just as Mal’ak and angelos doesn’t. Angel, angelos and mal’ak all mean messenger which could be either celestial or human.
We don’t know what kind of being God’s celestial messengers are, but we do know of course God has human messengers as well.
Hi Jodi,
I agree that the word translated as “angels” can be translated “messengers.” That is nothing new to me. I also agree that the word translated as “angels” referred to John the Baptist as a messenger and other earthly men as messengers, that is also nothing new to me. What I vehemently disagree with you on is that you apply the word translated as “angels” as earthly messengers. As I read through Psalms 104, it is clear to me that “angels” is the correct meaning as in celestial angels. I suspect that “wind” is a better translation than “spirits” from reading that passage also. Here are my reasons…
- In Psalm 104:3-4 it says this:3He makes his lofty dwellings in the waters and sets his chariot above the clouds and walks upon the wings of the wind.
4He makes his Angels the wind and his ministers burning fire.
- In 2 Samuel 22:11 it says this: He rode on a cherub, and flew. Yes, he was seen on the wings of the wind.
- In Psalm 18:10 it says this: And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
In each of those passages the phrase the “wings of the wind” is in close context with angels/cherub. Btw, cherub cannot be construed to mean an earthly messenger but it does mean celestial messenger as in angel.
As fate would have it, that is not all I gleaned from looking at Psalms 104. As you might go back and notice that I didn’t supply meaning to the pronouns in this verse:
7And regarding the angels He says,
“HE MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”
I will add my insight this time here:
7And regarding the angels He( the Father) says,
“HE (the Son) MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS (the Son’s) MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”
If you read Psalms 104, you can see that the passage speaks about two persons that are involved in creation, a person referred to as “you” and a person referred to as “he.” I noticed that years ago but I am just now seeing a wonderful probable reason that Psalms 104 was quoted by the Father in Hebrews 1. It looks to me that the Father is identifying the Son as the “He” in Psalms 104 that makes His angels winds. The next verse in Psalms 104 adds this: 5He has prepared Earth upon its foundations that it will not move for an eternity of eternities.
That should sound familiar with another part that is said of the Son by the Father here:
10And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH…
This is getting more and more interesting, isn’t it?
You probably know that the Son is said to be the “Wisdom of God” and Psalms 104 mentions that in Wisdom the LORD has made all His works, another tie into the Son as the “He” who makes His angels winds. Proverbs 8 also speaks about “Wisdom being involved in creation and being POSSESSED before the LORD’s works, brought forth/BORN, and ANOINTED before there were depths.
Psalms 104:24
24How many are Your works, O LORD!
In wisdom You have made them all;
the earth is full of Your creatures.
1 Corinthians 1:24
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.Proverbs 8
12I, wisdom, have dwelt with prudence, || And I find out a knowledge of purposes.
13The fear of YHWH [is] to hate evil; Pride, and arrogance, and an evil way, || And a contrary mouth, I have hated.
14Counsel and substance [are] mine, || I [am] understanding, I have might.
15By me kings reign, and princes decree righteousness,
16By me chiefs rule, and nobles, || All judges of earth.
17I love those loving me, || And those seeking me earnestly find me.
18Wealth and honor [are] with me, || Lasting substance and righteousness.
19My fruit [is] better than gold, even fine gold, || And my increase than choice silver.
20I cause to walk in a path of righteousness, || In midst of paths of judgment,
21To cause my lovers to inherit substance, || Indeed, I fill their treasures.
22YHWH possessed me—the beginning of His way, || Before His works since then.
23I was anointed from the age, from the first, || From former states of the earth.
24In there being no depths, I was brought forth, || In there being no fountains heavy [with] waters,
25Before mountains were sunk, || Before heights, I was brought forth.
26While He had not made the earth, and out-places, || And the top of the dusts of the world.
27In His preparing the heavens I [am] there, || In His decreeing a circle on the face of the deep,
28In His strengthening clouds above, || In His making strong fountains of the deep,
29In His setting for the sea its limit, || And the waters do not transgress His command, || In His decreeing the foundations of earth,
30Then I am near Him, a workman, || And I am a delight—day by day. Rejoicing before Him at all times,
There you go Jodi, your view about Hebrews 1 as being about earthly messengers instead of celestial angels has been completely debunked as well as your idea of the Son as merely a plan in the beginning. The Father is identifying the Son as the One who made His angels winds and also the One who laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of His hands Heb 1:10.
I hope this helps, LU
Hi LU,
You failed to address the scriptures that I gave, so let me break it down for you again with a few additional passages and points. I hope that you can speak to the below scriptures specifically.
Isaiah 11: 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
We have the LORD and THEN we have the son of Jesse who has the Spirit of the LORD upon him where through that Spirit he judges and slays the wicked. He who has the Spirit of the LORD is NOT the LORD, he IS THE SON OF JESSE. When Jesus rose from the dead he not only received the Spirit by promise, but according to Luke, he taught of himself according to what the prophets wrote about him.
LU, according to Acts 17 Jesus is the MAN ORDAINED of the LORD to execute judgment, where we know that he does so not by his own eyes and ears. There is no scripture that says the Spirit of the LORD is upon the LORD, the Spirit of the LORD is upon a HUMAN BEING. There is no scripture that says the LORD ordained the LORD, he ordained a HUMAN BEING Jesus, the son of Jesse. Remember Isaiah 46, from the beginning the LORD declared that a man would fulfill His will.
This man ordained of the LORD is a firstborn among many brethren, which those brethren are the Saints who follow Jesus in the NEW BIRTH.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration (new birth) when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
1 Thes 3: 13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Jude 1: 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Psalms 149:4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation. 5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. 6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand; 7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; 8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; 9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Did you catch that? The saints whom the LORD takes pleasure in, on the LORD’S day they execute judgment and punishment where they have a two-edged sword in their hand. THEY along with the son of Jesse are the LORD’S ministers where they are His fire and His sword following His commands.
Psalms 103:19 Jehovah in the heavens Hath established His throne, And His kingdom over all hath ruled. 20 Bless Jehovah, ye His messengers, Mighty in power doing His word, To hearken to the voice of His word. 21 Bless Jehovah, all ye His hosts, His ministers doing His pleasure. 22 Bless Jehovah, all ye His works, In all places of His dominion. Bless, O my soul, Jehovah!
Joel 2: 1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. 3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. 4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. 5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. 6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. 7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: 8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. 9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. 10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: 11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Then what do we read in Psalms 104,
Psalms 104: 3 Who is laying the beam of His upper chambers in the waters, Who is making thick clouds His chariot, Who is walking on wings of wind, 4 Making His messengers — the winds, His ministers — the flaming fire. 5 He hath founded earth on its bases, It is not moved to the age and for ever. 6 The abyss! as with clothing Thou hast covered it, Above hills do waters stand. 7 From Thy rebuke they flee, From the voice of Thy thunder haste away…33 I sing to Jehovah during my life, I sing praise to my God while I exist. 34 Sweet is my meditation on Him, I — I do rejoice in Jehovah. 35 Consumed are sinners from the earth, And the wicked are no more. Bless, O my soul, Jehovah. Praise ye Jehovah!
LU, PAUL WAS NOT IGNORANT of Joel 2, nor that of Psalms 103 and 149 when he quoted Psalms 104! The messengers are the SAINTS who are made into the image of the Son at his return, so that he will be a firstborn of many brethren, as Jesus promised, they would follow him in the New Birth. Remember one must be born again of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom. Jesus was begotten on the day he rose from the dead said to have received the promise of the Holy Spirit (he was settled into God’s house for all eternity as according to the prophecy given to David concerning his son 1 chronicles 17). Likewise the Saints are promised to receive the Spirit, where Paul gives us the IMAGE OF A SON OF GOD, those who are LED BY THE SPIRIT. This brings us back to Isaiah 11 that is not yet fulfilled, we have a man being LED by the Spirit that is upon him to execute judgement and punishment, the man ordained of God.
Hebrews 1:6 and when again He may bring in the firstborn to the world, He saith, And let them bow before him all messengers of God; 7 and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;
Good Morning LU,
To support your claim that the messengers of Psalm 104 are celestial messengers you gave the 2 below passages.
1. In 2 Samuel 22:11 it says this: He rode on a cherub, and flew. Yes, he was seen on the wings of the wind.
2. In Psalm 18:10 it says this: And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
Psalms 104: 3 Who is laying the beam of His upper chambers in the waters, Who is making thick clouds His chariot, Who is walking on wings of wind, 4 Making His messengers the winds, His ministers the flaming fire. 5 He hath founded earth on its bases, It is not moved to the age and for ever. 6 The abyss! as with clothing Thou hast covered it, Above hills do waters stand. 7 From Thy rebuke they flee, From the voice of Thy thunder haste away….33 I sing to Jehovah during my life, I sing praise to my God while I exist. 34 Sweet is my meditation on Him, I — I do rejoice in Jehovah. 35 Consumed are sinners from the earth, And the wicked are no more. Bless, O my soul, Jehovah. Praise ye Jehovah!
Your stance is that the Cherub that the YHVH rode upon and did fly, where He walks on wings of wind, are the messengers that He is making the winds, are the minsters He is making the flaming fire where they consume sinners from the earth.
I say that the messengers and ministers are not the Cherubs, but the Saints as the below passages make it CLEAR.
Psalm 103:7 He maketh known His ways to Moses, To the sons of Israel His acts. 8 Merciful and gracious is Jehovah, Slow to anger, and abundant in mercy. 9 Not for ever doth He strive, Nor to the age doth He watch. 10 Not according to our sins hath He done to us, Nor according to our iniquities Hath He conferred benefits upon us. 11 For, as the height of the heavens is above the earth, His kindness hath been mighty over those fearing Him. 12 As the distance of east from west He hath put far from us our transgressions. 13 As a father hath mercy on sons, Jehovah hath mercy on those fearing Him. 14 For He hath known our frame, Remembering that we are dust. 15 Mortal man! as grass are his days, As a flower of the field so he flourisheth; 16 For a wind hath passed over it, and it is not, And its place doth not discern it any more. 17 And the kindness of Jehovah Is from age even unto age on those fearing Him, And His righteousness to sons’ sons, 18 To those keeping His covenant, And to those remembering His precepts to do them. 19 Jehovah in the heavens Hath established His throne, And His kingdom over all hath ruled. 20 Bless Jehovah, ye His messengers, Mighty in power doing His word, To hearken to the voice of His Word. 21 Bless Jehovah, all ye His hosts, His ministers doing His pleasure. 22 Bless Jehovah, all ye His works, In all places of His dominion. Bless, O my soul, Jehovah!
Psalms 149: 4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation. 5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. 6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand; 7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; 8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; 9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
Isaiah 66: 15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Joel 2:Joel 2: 1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. 3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. 4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. 5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. 6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. 7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: 8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. 9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. 10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: 11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Joel 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
Psalms 104: 3 Who is laying the beam of His upper chambers in the waters, Who is making thick clouds His chariot, Who is walking on wings of wind, 4 Making His messengers the winds, His ministers the flaming fire.
The great people who are strong on the Day of YHVH are the Saints, they are YHVH’s army, they are the messengers who He makes the wind and a flaming fire spoken of in Psalm 104 where sinners are consumed from the earth by these great people.
YOU: In each of those passages the phrase the “wings of the wind” is in close context with angels/cherub.
ME: You draw the conclusion that the messengers of Psalms 104 who are to destroy sinners are the Cherubs because of two passages that closely matches the text of Psalms 104 because of the words “wings of wind”. I have given you FAR GREATER passages that connect the messengers of Psalms 104 to that of the Saints. It’s time that you rethink and not deny those passages with their obvious intended connections.
The Saints ARE YHVH’S messengers where they will minister unto His will to destroy the wicked upon the earth. You are told that they will be like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble.
Hi LU,
As I see it you use very weak connections to try and prove your stance all the while ignoring and not applying the clear given truth from other passages that contradict your stance.
Proverbs 3:1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: 2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. 3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: 4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man. 5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. 8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. 9 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: 10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine. 11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: 12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth. 13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. 14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. 15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. 16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour. 17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. 18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her. 19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. 20 By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew. 21 My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion: 22 So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck. 23 Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble. 24 When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. 25 Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. 26 For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken. 27 Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it.
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Romans 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;….29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
LU, Jesus is NOT the God who made the world an all things, he is the MAN ORDAINED of THAT GOD. As you are told in Isaiah 46, this man was IN THE WORD OF GOD from the beginning where GOD declared he would fulfill all of GOD’S will, where this man by GOD’S foreknowledge would be slain and resurrected being given a portion among the great, ordained to then divide the spoil with the strong as he judges the world. This MAN didn’t DECLARE anything in the beginning, this MAN wasn’t He who said, “I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.”
How does God do it?…. through the MAN whom He CALLED to righteousness, the man who He ordained, through the son of Jesse who God raised from the dead and gave His Spirit to.
What do we read later in Acts 2,
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
What do we read later in Acts 2,
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
The Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might and Knowledge and Fear of YHVH is upon the resurrected Son of Man, called an anointing (chrio- to anoint thus becoming the christos -anointed) when he returns in the glory of our Father. He will not judge through his own eyes and ears.
Proverbs 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. 4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. 5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. 6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things. 7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. 8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them. 9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. 10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. 11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it. 12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. 17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. 18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. 20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: 21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
Read again,
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
What do we read beforehand in Acts 2,
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Jesus does so as a man who had been raised receiving the promised Holy Spirit of YHVH, an anointing being thus the Christ filled with the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of YHVH to perform YHVH will.
The Spirit that is in all goodness, righteousness and truth, that is of all Wisdom, Understanding and Knowledge is YHVH’s own Spirit, it is what He is. YHVH created all things through His own Wisdom through the powers of His own Spirit. His wisdom was brought forth to make creation, to then appoint kings and princes upon His earth, where He had determined before hand their boundaries. From the beginning IN YHVH’S WORD He declared the son of Jesse would be a king of kings and a master of masters upon a New Earth where he is fully obedient to YHVH because YHVH’s Spirit dwells in him, all goodness, righteousness and truth.
Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me (wisdom) in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I (wisdom) was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I (wisdom) brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I (wisdom)was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I (wisdom) was by him, as one brought up with him: and I (wisdom) was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. 32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. 34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
Jesus received the Spirit of wisdom at the river Jordan, he listened to YHVH and was obedient unto his death, therefore YHVH could not hold him to the punishment of sin. Just as Proverbs declares, Jesus had received the Spirit of wisdom and he did the commands that he heard from YHVH and it brought him up from the grave no more to return to corruption. On that day he was resurrected he received the promised Holy Spirit, whereby he is able to fulfill Isaiah 11 and 1 Corinthians 15, being the Son of Man that returns in our Father’s glory.
Jesus is not the Spirit of Wisdom, he is the man who was begotten of the Spirit of Wisdom where he is thus filled with grace and truth. His job is to obey YHVH and bring forth righteousness and salvation, share the spoil with the strong and put all enemies underfoot. YHVH had declared this man from the beginning. By YHVH’s own wisdom and power He spoke it and make it come to pass.
LU, below Jesus is the man receiving the Spirit, he is not YHVH who made all things and gave man life. He is the servant of YHVH a man ordained of YHVH to judge the quick and the dead.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; 26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:
LU, recall what Isaiah told you, that Jesus is a SERVANT, he is YHVH’s messenger whom YHVH declared from the beginning would be the man to execute His council.
What you say is IMPOSSIBLE according to CLEAR DIRECT SCRIPTURE! We are not told what we are told by Isaiah to then turn to say that he who is the servant of YHVH is the YHVH who created all things ALONE, BY HIMSELF.
FACT: Scripture directly separates Jesus from YHVH. Jesus is not YHVH but the man whom YHVH declared from the beginning would execute YHVH’s purpose. Jesus is a servant of YHVH who received YHVH’s Spirit both at the river Jordan and when he was raised from the dead. This YHVH said He created all things alone, by Himself. He who created all things ALONE, BY HIMSELF confirms the word to His servant Jesus and performs the council to His messenger Jesus.
Like I said, what you say is impossible, it’s ridiculous, to me it’s a pure bold face lie against direct scripture. Scriptures confirms that the man Jesus was IN THE WORD of YHVH from the beginning and that YHVH’s WORD in the beginning was that this man would come and execute His will bringing forth righteousness and salvation. Moreover scripture confirms that this YHVH in the beginning created all things ALL BY HIMSELF.
Jesus is not YHVH our God, Jesus is the name of David’s son to whom YHVH our God became a Father to. (1 Chronicles 17)
Jesus is not YHVH our God, Jesus is the name of the man to whom YHVH our God was mindful of and visited and crowned with glory and honor. (Psalms 8)
Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
LU, this is VERY SIMPLE AND CLEAR.
When you are told that there is no God besides YHVH, that He is YHVH and there is NONE ELSE, that He forms the light, that He does all these things, and then you read concerning Jesus that Jesus was given the Spirit of YHVH our God, was called to righteousness by YHVH our God to be for a light, and was given glory by He whose name is YHVH, that makes it a bold face lie to then turn and say that Jesus is also YHVH.
Let’s use the passage again with other passages,
Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? 11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
It’s not possible for the one who was begotten by YHVH on the day he was raised from the dead by YHVH, to also be the YHVH who says that there is none besides Him, that there is no God besides Him, there is none else who makes all things.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
6 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Ezekiel 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
LU, Jesus didn’t speak it, he is not YHVH in anyway, he received the Spirit by promise from YHVH who spoke it, saying we would also receive it. We are heirs of YHVH’S Spirit, joint heirs with the anointed Jesus.
Jesus is the man where when he was raised from the dead he was begotten of the Spirit, he as also promised, was settled into the House of YHVH, for those who are born of the Spirit enter YHVH’s kingdom. That Spirit that leads you makes you a Son of YHVH, that Spirit that bears witness to your spirit makes you a child of YHVH. When Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled at Christ’s return, Romans 8 is fulfilled, where Jesus becomes a firstborn of many brethren, all Sons of YHVH being born of the Spirit and led by the Spirit of YHVH. Such makes us joint heirs with Christ Jesus, having been born of YHVH’S Spirit and entering into the kingdom of God.
Jodi,
While you are waiting for my response, you might find this lady interesting. She has quite the intimate relationship with God and is taken to heaven quite often in order to reveal heaven to anyone eager to know more. You can skip to about the 35 minute mark and listen to the second half if you don’t have a lot of time. Enjoy!
Good Morning LU,
I have looked into her, a few weeks ago actually, and with all due respect, I think she is a total false prophet.
I really appreciate your time reading those, I know it was a lot.
I just had a window of time, been pretty busy late lately and so I wanted to post what all was coming to me at that time.
Hi Jodi,
I appreciate your time and passion but geez, that’s a lot of rabbit trails to discuss. You have demonstrated that earthly men can be associated with wind and fire. So can celestial angels. The question is which one is the Son far superior than and which one was He made lower than in regards to Heb 1:4 and 2:7, the earthly messengers or the celestial angels.
Would you at least agree that the ones referred to as “aggello” in the Greek in Heb 1:4 and Heb 2:7 are the same type of messengers either celestial angels or earthly messengers?
Heb 1:4So He became as far superior to the angels…
Heb 2:7You made him a little lower than the angels;…
(Regarding Kat Kerr, if she’s not a false prophet, your beliefs are in so much error, so of course you would label her to be false. As for my opinion of her, I am giving her the benefit of the doubt at the moment.)
Blesings, LU
Hi LU,
Hope you have been having a lovely week and I appreciate your question.
YOU:
Would you at least agree that the ones referred to as “aggello” in the Greek in Heb 1:4 and Heb 2:7 are the same type of messengers either celestial angels or earthly messengers?
Heb 1:4 So He became as far superior to the angels…
Heb 2:7 You made him a little lower than the angels;
ME: YES, both passages speak of human messengers.
Hebrews 1:4 having become so much better than the messengers, as he did inherit a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the messengers said He ever, ‘My Son thou art I today have begotten thee?’ and again, `I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?’ 6 and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, ‘And let them bow before him all messengers of God’.
Notice that Paul is quoting 1 Chronicles 17:13, identifying Jesus as the son of David to whom YHVH promised He would be a Father to, He promised to not take His mercy away from him, He promised to settle him into His house and give him an eternal throne. (1 Chronicles 17:11-14)
Notice that Jesus inherited and became, which is not at all the same as returning to. Human messengers of YHVH are heirs of God joint heirs with the anointed Jesus, but Jesus is an inheritor as a firstborn where his name is above all. YHVH divides him a portion with the great, and then, as the man YHVH ordained to be a judge, he will divide the spoil with the strong (Isaiah 53:12). Likewise, he being the appointed king of kings and master of masters is more excellent than all.
1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
Psalms 89:1 I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations 2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens. 3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, 4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah 5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints. 6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD? 7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him. 8 O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee? 9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them. 10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm. 11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them. 12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name. 13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand. 14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face. 15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance. 16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted. 17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted. 18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king. 19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people. 20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: 21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. 22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. 23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. 24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. 25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. 26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
God is greatly to be feared in the assemble of the Saints. The Saints are to be made into the image of the firstborn when the firstborn returns, the Son of Man returning in our Father’s glory. The Saints will follow their brother who is their king and master, to destroy all enemies.
Side note: In Isaiah 7 we read of a plot to take over the kingdom of Judah, but YHVH says that it will not stand, as it is against His promises that we read of in Psalms 89 and 1 Chronicles 17. A promise given unto David concerning his son that he would be an eternal king. YHVH tells Ahaz the king of Judah, who was worried about this threat from other tribes, that He would give a sign to the house of David, a virgin birth, which would identify the promised eternal king.
Hebrews 2:6 and one in a certain place did testify fully, saying, `What is man, that Thou art mindful of him, or a son of man, that Thou dost look after him? 7 Thou didst make him some little less than messengers, with glory and honour Thou didst crown him, and didst set him over the works of Thy hands, 8 all things Thou didst put in subjection under his feet,’ for in the subjecting to him the all things, nothing did He leave to him unsubjected, and now not yet do we see the all things subjected to him, 9 and him who was made some little less than messengers we see Jesus because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death.
Psalms 8: 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man (adam –human), that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man (adam – human), that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Here it is, I found the exact scriptures and the words of Jesus that Paul’s words speak directly to.
Matthew 10: 1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease…7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Matthew 20: 25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said,Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: 28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Hebrews 2:9 and him who was made some little less than messengers we see Jesus because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death.
LU, Jesus was a chief human messenger unto human messengers that were sent out to preach and perform the same miracles he was doing. Jesus was made a little lower than them when he ministered to them when he gave his life a ransom.
Hi Jodi,
You have written soooo much and I know that took a lot of time and so I appreciate your effort. However most of your verses that you understand speaking about earthly messengers or earthly holy ones are translated elsewhere as celestial angels and meant as celestial holy ones, so I can see why you are confused and think that my view of Hebrews 1 as speaking about celestial angels is not supported. Check out each of your references in other translations and you can see that for yourself. You are also confused about my stance. You said this:
What you say is IMPOSSIBLE according to CLEAR DIRECT SCRIPTURE! We are not told what we are told by Isaiah to then turn to say that he who is the servant of YHVH is the YHVH who created all things ALONE, BY HIMSELF.
I don’t say that at all. The YHVH, who is both God and Lord, who created alone is two persons who are one, the Father (our one God) through His Son (our one Lord). The Father identifies His Son (not the plan of his son) as the one that laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of His hands. They each carry the character represented by the name YHVH. Together they are the Great God YHVH in the fullest sense. One of them is the head of the other and sends the Son to become the promised Messiah and to lay down His life for their followers as a great shepherd lays down his life for his sheep. He receives all the promises of the Messiah. All this to the glory of the Father.
Now regarding more support for the correct translation of celestial angels in Heb 1-2:
Heb 1:14 Are not the angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
Psalm 91:11
For He will command His angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways.Psalm 103:20
Bless the LORD, all His angels mighty in strength who carry out His word, who hearken to the voice of His command.Daniel 6:22
My God sent His angel and shut the mouths of the lions. They have not hurt me, for I was found innocent in His sight, and I have done no wrong against you, O king.”Matthew 4:11
Then the devil left Him, and angels came and ministered to Him.Regarding Heb 2:5-9
BTW, this passage is about mankind in general. Mankind wasn’t made lower than the earthly messengers, that wouldn’t make a bit of sense.
Heb 2
5For it is not to angels that He has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6But somewhere it is testified in these words:
“What is man that You are mindful of him,
or the son of man that You care for him?
7You made him a little lower than the angels;
You crowned him with glory and honor
8and placed everything under his feet.”
When God subjected all things to him, He left nothing outside of his control. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.
Jodi, that which has been placed under mankinds’ feet are the fish, the birds, the livestock and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it. See here:
Gen 1:26 26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness, to rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it.”
God did subject to all mankind those things including earthly messengers (prophets, ministers, apostles, etc.) However, He did not subject to the celestial angels the works of His hands, i.e. the sheep, the oxen, the beasts of the field, the birds the fish, etc.
Psalm 8 is about mankind and the sons of mankind in general that rule over the works of God’s hands.
4what is man that You are mindful of him,
or the son of man that You care for him?
5You made him a little lower than the angels;
You crowned him with glory and honor.
6You made him ruler of the works of Your hands;
You have placed everything under his feet:
7all sheep and oxen,
and even the beasts of the field,
8the birds of the air and the fish of the sea,
all that swim the paths of the seas.
Good Morning LU,
Much to respond to and I will break it down in a few posts.
I do not see in your reply you giving proof at all to the specific scriptures I gave, showing how they are not speaking of God’s human messengers the Saints, but are as you say, speaking of celestial messengers. All you did was accuse me of being confused and wrong, lol. So your proof in this case is because you say so.
You also spoke as if you were ignorant to my position, which I felt like we had clearly established. Just as other people had the right to translate the bible from Hebrew to English and Greek to English, I have that same right. If one uses the Young’s Literal Translation, when it comes to the original word Mal’ak and Angelos, they aren’t reading the interpretation of someone else, instead they have to decide on their own according to the surrounding text and the truth given from other passages to determine if the messenger is human or celestial. As I mentioned earlier, I don’t render the interpretations of translators, who come from a Christian church that was established by pagan converts who applied their pagan beliefs to scriptures, as reliable.
Hi Lu,
Psalms 104: 3 Who is laying the beam of His upper chambers in the waters, Who is making thick clouds His chariot, Who is walking on wings of wind, 4 Making His messengers the winds, His ministers the flaming fire. 5 He hath founded earth on its bases, It is not moved to the age and for ever. 6 The abyss! as with clothing Thou hast covered it, Above hills do waters stand. 7 From Thy rebuke they flee, From the voice of Thy thunder haste away….33 I sing to Jehovah during my life, I sing praise to my God while I exist. 34 Sweet is my meditation on Him, I — I do rejoice in Jehovah. 35 Consumed are sinners from the earth, And the wicked are no more. Bless, O my soul, Jehovah. Praise ye Jehovah!
David rejoices as he receives prophecy of mighty messengers who will consume sinners of the earth where the wicked will be no more.
David later in the book of Psalms speak of these mighty messengers as the Saints executing judgment and prior in his book he most certainly identifies those Saints as humans who will obtain eternal life and peace.
Psalms 149:4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation. 5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. 6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand; 7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; 8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; 9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
Psalms 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. 10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. 11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. 12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth. 13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming. 14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation. 15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken. 16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked. 17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous. 18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever. 19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied. 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. 21 The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth. 22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off. 23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. 24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand. 25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. 26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed. 27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore. 28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. 29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever. 30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment. 31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide. 32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him. 33 The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged. 34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it. 35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. 36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found. 37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace. 38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off. 39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble. 40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.
Joel also identifies the messengers as humans.
Joel 2: 1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. 3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. 4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. 5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. 6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. 7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: 8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. 9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. 10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: 11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?…30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Psalms 116:13 I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD. 14 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people. 15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration (new birth) when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Jude 1: 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
David in Psalms 104 is speaking of human messengers, human Saints. They are with the Son of Man ministering until God’s will bringing forth judgment upon the earth where they destroy the wicked. “A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth:”.
This Son of Man was anointed above his fellows, the Saints. Though the Saints are all to be raised as he, unto a New Birth begotten of the Spirit, he was raised from the dead being made unto them both lord and Christ.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Who sits at YHVH’s right hand?
Luke 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
Hi LU,
Psal 104:4 Making His messengers the winds, His ministers the flaming fire.
For what purpose?
Psalm 104:35 Consumed are sinners from the earth, And the wicked are no more. Bless, O my soul, Jehovah. Praise ye Jehovah!
Joel 2: 2 a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. 3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth:
Human Saints are the messengers of YHVH, who carry out the prophecies of Psalms 104 and Joel 2 alongside the Son of Man who sits at the right hand of the power of God.
- In Psalm 104:3-4 it says this:3He makes his lofty dwellings in the waters and sets his chariot above the clouds and walks upon the wings of the wind.
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