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Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2012,16:40) Here Bo,
This is a comment on Prov 28:18
This is a proverb…a probability. It is not a teaching about how he is saved eternally. It is a general statement regarding doing good and not evil. When you do good and make wise choices you will enjoy a safe life. If you make perverse choices, you will fall.Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Whoso walketh uprightly shall be saved, Or “be safe” ® from those that seek his life, plot against him, shoot at him, as the wicked do at the upright in heart, but the Lord protects him; and it is even well with him in times of public calamities; the Lord has his chambers and hiding places for him; and he is safe from falling, as may be gathered from the opposite clause; for he walks surely, and is in the hands of Christ, and is kept by him from a final and total falling away: and he shall be saved also with an everlasting salvation; from sin, and all the effects of it; from the curse of the law, from wrath to come, from hell and damnation. Not that his upright walk is the cause of this; the moving cause of salvation is the grace of God; the procuring cause, our Lord Jesus Christ, the only Author of it: but this is a descriptive character of the persons that are and shall be saved; it is a clear case that such have the grace of God, and therefore shall have glory; See Gill on Proverbs 10:9;
but he that is perverse in his ways; “in his two ways”, as in Proverbs 27:6; or many ways, and all perverse and wicked:
shall fall at once; his destruction shall come suddenly upon him, when he is not aware of it, and when he cries, Peace, peace, to himself: or in one of them; in one or other of his perverse ways.
Regarding Jer 17:14
Yes YHWH heals and saves and He does it through YHWH the Son.
So who healed Jesus? Himself or his God?Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 19 2012,05:20) Acts 2:32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.
Exactly so this shows 2 things, 1 Jesus is not God and that God healed Jesus without going through Jesus but Jesus has never done a single Miracle without the help of GodBo,
It only shows that there is God the Father AND God the Son. There is plenty of proof that Jesus is God too.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 19 2012,10:51) Bo,
It only shows that there is God the Father AND God the Son. There is plenty of proof that Jesus is God too.
It shows that God “raised” THIS JESUS from the dead. By definition can God be dead or subject to death?Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 20 2012,13:47) By definition, nothing is impossible with God…God can be whatever He needs to be, Bo.
So God can be “not God”?Can God be gay or Satan?
You see it makes no sense but you should be truthful God cannot die if He could He would not be Everlasting and Eternal
God cannot be hungry you are confusing The Creator with His creation it is as if you have no respect or fear of speaking falsely about God and remeber the FEAR of God is the beginning of all wisdom.God can become flesh and be both God and man at the same time. Man can die. Man can be hungry.
A royal prince can spend time in a foreign land and live as a pauper and would be both a royal prince and a pauper at the same time. The royal blood doesn't leave the prince if he chooses to live in a foreign land as a pauper, does it?
When God the Son left His kingdom to live in a foreign land as a bondservant, He did not give up His divine Sonship…that is not something that can be given up.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 21 2012,16:27) God can become flesh and be both God and man at the same time. Man can die. Man can be hungry. A royal prince can spend time in a foreign land and live as a pauper and would be both a royal prince and a pauper at the same time. The royal blood doesn't leave the prince if he chooses to live in a foreign land as a pauper, does it?
When God the Son left His kingdom to live in a foreign land as a bondservant, He did not give up His divine Sonship…that is not something that can be given up.
Kathi
If a royal prince spends time in a foreign land and lives as a pauper and dies guess what? the prince and the pauper is dead, right?
as far as your reference to Jesus wouldn't death be giving up your “divinity”? Can a being be both DEAD and DIVINE?
Bo,
Jesus died for a divine purpose. So, yes, He can be divine and become a man also so that He could die and live again as the God/Man.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 23 2012,01:02) Bo,
Jesus died for a divine purpose. So, yes, He can be divine and become a man also so that He could die and live again as the God/Man.
So you don't believe in God being EVERLIVING? You believe that there is such thing as a dead God, I will always disagree woth you there.Bo,
First of all, God the Father did not die. God the Son who became man died for a moment to fulfill prophecy and pay the price for sin. He lives as the God/Man today. He could not have died if He didn't become man. There was a divine purpose for God the Son to offer Himself up for us…a mere man could not have paid the price!Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 27 2012,03:05) Bo,
First of all, God the Father did not die. God the Son who became man died for a moment to fulfill prophecy and pay the price for sin. He lives as the God/Man today. He could not have died if He didn't become man. There was a divine purpose for God the Son to offer Himself up for us…a mere man could not have paid the price!
So if God the Father didn't die then He would be the ONLY EVERLIVING GOD, right? Only the GOD that has never had beginning or end is the TRUE GOD, right?Is this why Jesus Christ called THE FATHER, THE ONLY TRUE GOD?
Bo,
You asked:Quote So if God the Father didn't die then He would be the ONLY EVERLIVING GOD, right? Only the GOD that has never had beginning or end is the TRUE GOD, right? Is this why Jesus Christ called THE FATHER, THE ONLY TRUE GOD?
Hello! When Jesus called the Father the only true God, Jesus had yet to die, so no I don't think that is why He called Him that. Perhaps it is because He was comparing the Father to all the gods of the nations and then goes on and mentioned Himself as one who, with that only true God, was also to be believed in for eternal life. Jesus, when He spoke those words in John 17, was the only true God/Man, this could not have been said of the Father, i.e. that He was the only true God/Man. Before His incarnation, Jesus was also true God with true God but after His incarnation, He became both…true God and true Man. The Bible is clear that Jesus is a theos and we know that He was the First and the Last as well.
I do not believe that the intent of that verse in John 17 was to announce that Jesus was not true God like His Father but rather He was comparing Him to the other gods that were being worshiped in the nations who were clearly not true and also Jesus was associating Himself WITH the true God and not any other god. Much of Jesus' words were about declaring an association with God the Father as His only begotten Son who we are told elsewhere is theos also. His efforts were to get people to hear and accept Him as really being sent by the true God so they would follow Him and believe in Him too. Jesus wanted people to believe that His message to them was God the Father's message said through Him, and that they were to honor those words as if the Father Himself was speaking directly to them.
Thank you for your patience…been distracted with other things!
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 05 2013,15:05) Bo,
You asked:Quote So if God the Father didn't die then He would be the ONLY EVERLIVING GOD, right? Only the GOD that has never had beginning or end is the TRUE GOD, right? Is this why Jesus Christ called THE FATHER, THE ONLY TRUE GOD?
Hello! When Jesus called the Father the only true God, Jesus had yet to die, so no I don't think that is why He called Him that. Perhaps it is because He was comparing the Father to all the gods of the nations and then goes on and mentioned Himself as one who, with that only true God, was also to be believed in for eternal life. Jesus, when He spoke those words in John 17, was the only true God/Man, this could not have been said of the Father, i.e. that He was the only true God/Man. Before His incarnation, Jesus was also true God with true God but after His incarnation, He became both…true God and true Man. The Bible is clear that Jesus is a theos and we know that He was the First and the Last as well.
I do not believe that the intent of that verse in John 17 was to announce that Jesus was not true God like His Father but rather He was comparing Him to the other gods that were being worshiped in the nations who were clearly not true and also Jesus was associating Himself WITH the true God and not any other god. Much of Jesus' words were about declaring an association with God the Father as His only begotten Son who we are told elsewhere is theos also. His efforts were to get people to hear and accept Him as really being sent by the true God so they would follow Him and believe in Him too. Jesus wanted people to believe that His message to them was God the Father's message said through Him, and that they were to honor those words as if the Father Himself was speaking directly to them.
Thank you for your patience…been distracted with other things!
Kathi Jesus was in prayer talking dirctly to God, so do you think he was trying to clarify to “GOD” that “GOD” was the only true God? Please don't take a week to answer
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 08 2013,15:29) No.
Appreciate the quick response. Can you tell me what was Jesus actually trying to accomplish acknowledging that the God he was praying to was the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD?Hi Bo,
You asked:Quote Can you tell me what was Jesus actually trying to accomplish acknowledging that the God he was praying to was the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD? For reference:
John 16:29 Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”31“You believe at last!” Jesus answered. 32“But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
33“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
John 17 1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
It seems to me that Jesus was affirming His Father as being the only true God as compared to all the gods of the nations. He was also making a point that He was actually and truly from the real God, the Father, as the Father's Son. In this passage Jesus is declaring to be the Son of the only true God who together with the Father was to be known by men for eternal life.
The only true God the Father, sent the only true God, the Son, to be the only true God/man.
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 10 2013,12:57) Hi Bo,
You asked:Quote Can you tell me what was Jesus actually trying to accomplish acknowledging that the God he was praying to was the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD? For reference:
John 16:29 Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”31“You believe at last!” Jesus answered. 32“But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
33“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
John 17 1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
It seems to me that Jesus was affirming His Father as being the only true God as compared to all the gods of the nations. He was also making a point that He was actually and truly from the real God, the Father, as the Father's Son. In this passage Jesus is declaring to be the Son of the only true God who together with the Father was to be known by men for eternal life.
The only true God the Father, sent the only true God, the Son, to be the only true God/man.
Jesus was sent bythe ONLY TRUE GOD therefore the ONLY TRUE GOD could not send “THE ONLY TRUE GOD” as that would be HIM doing the sending.Keep in mind that Jesus didn't say “the only true God the father” he said clealy “THE ONLY TRUE GOD” you add words like “the father and the son” but the Bible always references God Almighty as a single being called God Almighty.
I wish you didn't treat this as some sort of theological contest because it is VERY, VERY Clear That GOD is not a true reference when it comes to Jesus and Jesus would agree according to the scriptures because he declared:
John 10:36
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?Good morning Bo,
you said:Quote Jesus was sent by the ONLY TRUE GOD therefore the ONLY TRUE GOD could not send “THE ONLY TRUE GOD” as that would be HIM doing the sending. Jesus was the only true God's very own, only begotten Son. A point that you have not accepted. This very own, only begotten Son of the only true God is called 'God' by this only true God, His Father, so…like begets like, and there you have it…God, the Father sends God the Son.
Heb 1:8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
In Heb 1:8-9 we clearly see two identified as 'God' by the only true God. Both of them are also identified in the scriptures as 'kyrios' which is a Greek word for lord, Lord, and LORD (Jehovah). So, both are identified as 'theos' which is Greek for god and God, and also identified as 'kyrios,' once again meaning lord, Lord or LORD.
We both agree that the Father, the one true God according to John 17 is God, Lord and LORD…right, Bo?
So, the million dollar question:
Is Jesus god or God?
Is Jesus lord, Lord or LORD?We know that the Greek NT uses kyrios for Jehovah as well as human masters so if the writers just wrote Jehovah instead of kyrios, I believe that this message board, actually the whole Bible believing world, wouldn't be so convoluted with some believing Jesus to be a god or a God…a lord or a Lord/LORD.
In the very passage that we get Jesus calling the Father, the one true God (John 17), we are told that the Father gave His name to His Son and that the Father and the Son are one. This should clarify that Jesus is not only Lord but LORD-(Jehovah,the Son) with the same name as His Father (Jehovah) and they are a unity, but not everyone can accept this. It is logical to differentiate a father and a son who have the same name as 'so and so' the father and 'so and so' the son. Why do you have a problem with this, Bo?
John 17:11…Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me.
Do you agree that the Father's name is Jehovah/YHVH?
In the OT we are told that Jehovah is one but we aren't told that Jehovah is one 'being.' A unity would also be 'one.' Jesus says that the Father and He are one but that isn't one being but one as a unity. We are told that Jehovah is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords. In the NT we are told that Jesus is the Lord of lords and that the Father is our one God and Jesus is our one Lord. Bo, Both are identified as theos and kyrios. The Spirit of God is the one who leads us to truth as to which definition of 'kyrios' is intended for Jesus. Is your heart open for any of the definitions whether it be lord or Lord/LORD? If your heart is not open for it to possibly be LORD (Jehovah, the Son) then you will not be able to see that truth. You must seek the truth with all your heart, Bo. There needs to be a willingness to surrender any previous held beliefs/misunderstandings for the Holy Spirit to illuminate this to you.
You might ask what I believe constitutes a capital 'G' God. I believe a capital 'G' God would have always existed and be the creator of all creation so how could a son always have existed, many ponder this very question. They assume that being begotten means he had a beginning but does it? From human experience and being a mother of five, all five of my kids already existed before they were 'begotten' for about nine months…hence, begotten does not necessarily mean the beginning of existence. Was the Son within the Father before He was begotten from the Father…another million dollar question. Jesus claims to have come out from the Father which would fit the term 'begotten' as opposed to 'created' and Jesus is also the First and the Last which implies an existence before anything and hence, uncreated. So, I believe that the Son was always eternally within the Father before He was begotten from the Father, before the ages, and so do most Christians (I assume) that confess the Nicene Creed which states:
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
So, Bo, when you say this:
Quote … it is VERY, VERY Clear That GOD is not a true reference when it comes to Jesus… This tips me off that you, for some reason cannot see that Jesus is referred to as God, even by God the Father and that He is the First and the Last, the Lord of lords and is also called Lord AND LORD-Jehovah.
What is it in the Nicene Creed that you disagree with, specifically?
Bo, I am going to be busy for a while. My son, whom I haven't seen for 18 months is coming home from S. Korea today for a month stay. I will probably not be spending a lot of time on HN but I am sure that I will make quick visits.
Do take care and may God richly bless you!
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