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Quote So was the idea of forgiveness planned before the man was tempted? If So what is the function of the messiah? Yes. The Messiah was the intended one through whom forgiveness that leads to eternal life would come.
Quote I believe the Messiah leads men to forgiveness and repentence. Were men able to be forgiven before the messiah came? The Spirit of God convicts men of their sin and leads them to repentance.
Here is something about forgiveness before Jesus came:
Often the differences between the Old and New Testaments are presented with an emphasis on the Old Law as weak and insufficient, and this view is indeed in the scriptures as Paul says (Rom. 8:3):
“For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
But let us also present the fact that the Old Law was a glorious covenant as did Paul (2 Cor. 3:7-9):
“But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
A fuller understanding of the Old Law will indeed make us to appreciate the blessings we have in Christ Jesus to a fuller extent and the fullness of the forgiveness that is available in Him in that not only are our sins atoned for so that we are covered from the wrath of God and can stand clean before Him, but that He has taken away our sins as Jeremiah prophesied (“… and their sin I will remember no more”) and has purchased for us eternal redemption and the eternal inheritance in heaven. Praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ forever!
And finally, when we speak of the forgiveness of sins available under the Old Covenant, let us agree with the Bible (Lev. 4:31) that there was forgiveness of sins under the Old Law, but then go on to explain how that forgiveness is different from the “taking away” of sin in Jesus Christ.
From here: http://www.bumby.org/faq/forgiveness_under_old_law.html
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 07 2012,03:24) Quote So was the idea of forgiveness planned before the man was tempted? If So what is the function of the messiah? Yes. The Messiah was the intended one through whom forgiveness that leads to eternal life would come.
Quote I believe the Messiah leads men to forgiveness and repentence. Were men able to be forgiven before the messiah came? The Spirit of God convicts men of their sin and leads them to repentance.
Here is something about forgiveness before Jesus came:
Often the differences between the Old and New Testaments are presented with an emphasis on the Old Law as weak and insufficient, and this view is indeed in the scriptures as Paul says (Rom. 8:3):
“For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
But let us also present the fact that the Old Law was a glorious covenant as did Paul (2 Cor. 3:7-9):
“But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
A fuller understanding of the Old Law will indeed make us to appreciate the blessings we have in Christ Jesus to a fuller extent and the fullness of the forgiveness that is available in Him in that not only are our sins atoned for so that we are covered from the wrath of God and can stand clean before Him, but that He has taken away our sins as Jeremiah prophesied (“… and their sin I will remember no more”) and has purchased for us eternal redemption and the eternal inheritance in heaven. Praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ forever!
And finally, when we speak of the forgiveness of sins available under the Old Covenant, let us agree with the Bible (Lev. 4:31) that there was forgiveness of sins under the Old Law, but then go on to explain how that forgiveness is different from the “taking away” of sin in Jesus Christ.
From here: http://www.bumby.org/faq/forgiveness_under_old_law.html
Dd God take away the sinsof anyone before Jesus was born?Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 09 2012,23:55) Hi all,
I much prefer the idea of having a discussion rather than a debate…it just has more of a spirit of seeking truth instead of seeking a winner.I invite BD, if interested, to continue our discussion here (from this thread: ( https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=4322 ) about the sonship and single/dual nature of Christ, and what that means, or whatever rabbit trail that comes from there. Please let's use the Bible (not the qur'an) for reference and also the church fathers or other Christian scholarly Biblical commentaries when helpful to clarify.
This discussion is closed to others so that it can be easier to follow, thanks for understanding.
Hi Colter, Charity…sorry but this is a closed discussion. There are several threads you can go to that aren't closed and discuss this over there. Thanks for respecting the parameters of the thread. Your posts will be deleted here. Please don't take it personally.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 08 2012,11:58) Bo,
you asked:Quote Dd God take away the sinsof anyone before Jesus was born? Yes.
Okay, I am glad we both agree. So Jesus was important for the age/time he came in then, right?Abraham or say Noah was not dependent on Jesus for salvation, right?
Bo,
Abraham and Noah obeyed and believed in YHWH and since YHWH is both the Father and the Son, they did depend on Jesus, YHWH the Son, for their salvation and they depended on the Father also for their salvation. They knew Him as YHWH. Abraham even has a face to face discussion with Him in Gen 18.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 09 2012,14:12) Bo,
Abraham and Noah obeyed and believed in YHWH and since YHWH is both the Father and the Son, they did depend on Jesus, YHWH the Son, for their salvation and they depended on the Father also for their salvation. They knew Him as YHWH. Abraham even has a face to face discussion with Him in Gen 18.
Hi Kathi
How could you say Abraham or Noah knew God as YHWH when YHWH told Moses he was not known to them as YHWH?
Exodus 6:3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.This verse also points out that Jesus and God Almighty are not both YHWH because even you admit Jesus is not God Almighty. Also notice how it says “I” was not known to them
Bo,
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob knew Him as God Almighty. They did not know to call Him by the name Jehovah. They referred to Him as God Almighty or Lord and probably other names but I don't see where they called His name YHWH even though it was YHWH that had been appearing to them.I believe that both the Father and the Son are together the Almighty God in a corporate sense.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 10 2012,14:26) Bo,
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob knew Him as God Almighty. They did not know to call Him by the name Jehovah. They referred to Him as God Almighty or Lord and probably other names but I don't see where they called His name YHWH even though it was YHWH that had been appearing to them.I believe that both the Father and the Son are together the Almighty God in a corporate sense.
So if Jesus says that the Father is greater wouldn't that make for only one ALMIGHTY?Bo,
I believe that the Father, who is greater in position than any, is mightier with His Son rather than apart from His Son. So, that is why I say, together they form the Almighty God in the corporate sense.Do you agree with this statement:
the Father, who is greater in position than any, is mightier with His Son rather than apart from His Son.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 11 2012,02:59) Bo,
I believe that the Father, who is greater in position than any, is mightier with His Son rather than apart from His Son. So, that is why I say, together they form the Almighty God in the corporate sense.Do you agree with this statement:
the Father, who is greater in position than any, is mightier with His Son rather than apart from His Son.
(FATHER) God's Might is Sovereign is it not?Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 12 2012,08:10) Yes, both the Father and the Son are sovereign. Can you answer the question?
The answer is of course not, God does not need a son nor is dependent upon the existence of Jesus for God is UNBEGOTTEN and The UTMOST HIGH. ALL PRAISE IS DUE TO GOD.God Bless You!
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,02:13) Can God offer eternal salvation apart from the Son?
Are you being serious? OF COURSE GOD CAN DO THAT!Did God not offer the TREE of LIFE from the beginning?
You really seem to have a low opinion of God Almighty
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 14 2012,16:43) Did God offer eternal salvation to sinners apart from the Son?
Of course! God has always said that the way of salvation is submission to HIS way of living.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 16 2012,15:57) Bo,
Where does it say that specifically in the Bible?
Proverbs 28:18
Whoso walketh uprightly shall be saved, but he that is perverse in his ways shall fall at once!Jeremiah 17:14
Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved; for Thou art my praise.Here Bo,
This is a comment on Prov 28:18
This is a proverb…a probability. It is not a teaching about how he is saved eternally. It is a general statement regarding doing good and not evil. When you do good and make wise choices you will enjoy a safe life. If you make perverse choices, you will fall.Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Whoso walketh uprightly shall be saved, Or “be safe” Â from those that seek his life, plot against him, shoot at him, as the wicked do at the upright in heart, but the Lord protects him; and it is even well with him in times of public calamities; the Lord has his chambers and hiding places for him; and he is safe from falling, as may be gathered from the opposite clause; for he walks surely, and is in the hands of Christ, and is kept by him from a final and total falling away: and he shall be saved also with an everlasting salvation; from sin, and all the effects of it; from the curse of the law, from wrath to come, from hell and damnation. Not that his upright walk is the cause of this; the moving cause of salvation is the grace of God; the procuring cause, our Lord Jesus Christ, the only Author of it: but this is a descriptive character of the persons that are and shall be saved; it is a clear case that such have the grace of God, and therefore shall have glory; See Gill on Proverbs 10:9;
but he that is perverse in his ways; “in his two ways”, as in Proverbs 27:6; or many ways, and all perverse and wicked:
shall fall at once; his destruction shall come suddenly upon him, when he is not aware of it, and when he cries, Peace, peace, to himself: or in one of them; in one or other of his perverse ways.
Regarding Jer 17:14
Yes YHWH heals and saves and He does it through YHWH the Son.
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