- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2012,15:21) Bo,
Prove what the 'cup' was…was it being a sacrifice or was it being tortured. I don't believe that He was asking to not be the sacrifice but was asking to not be tortured. He could have ascended right there in the garden if He wanted to. It was His choice to stay and die. He chose to die before He came as man, that is why He came as a man. He was not forced to die.Quote
Anyway so once again you agree that “The First” Power is the greatest Power and if that is the case why don't you consider that “First Power” as Sovereign?I consider both powers interdependently sovereign.
Hi Kathi
First of all if you believe that is was always his choice to die then he would also have known it would be a torturous death so the cup he wanted taken from him was certainly conclusive of all that would happen and he pleaded for it to be removed from him. (The Quran says that God did in fact remove it from him)
Second there is no such thing as being interdependantly sovereign as that would mean that they are mutually dependent on each other and as you clearly stated God did nt arise out of anything nor was He created therefore God's existence is not dependent upon Jesus although the existence of Jesus would be dependent on God, correct?
sovereign n. One that exercises supreme, permanent authority
We all know and agree that God(Father) has the Supreme authority including over Christ, remember The Father is God over Christ, Jesus says “My God and your God” to Mary. Right there he is proclaiming a Status of God(Father) being equally higher in authority then either him or Mary also saying “My Father and your Father”
So why is Jesus in reference to God(Father) putting himself on the same level as Mary if he is God too?
Bo,
Do you believe that the whippings and scourging was removed from Him too?They are interdependently sovereign. The Father creates through the Son, redeems mankind through the Son, gives eternal life through the Son, judges all men through the Son, etc. Their interdependence is not a weakness but the Almighty strength and perfection.
Quote So why is Jesus in reference to God(Father) putting himself on the same level as Mary if he is God too? Was that a teaching of supposed inequality with God the Father or telling Mary where He was going. Be careful not to take what was meant to communicate one thing and assume it was meant to communicate another thing.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2012,08:10) Bo,
Do you believe that the whippings and scourging was removed from Him too?They are interdependently sovereign. The Father creates through the Son, redeems mankind through the Son, gives eternal life through the Son, judges all men through the Son, etc. Their interdependence is not a weakness but the Almighty strength and perfection.
Quote So why is Jesus in reference to God(Father) putting himself on the same level as Mary if he is God too? Was that a teaching of supposed inequality with God the Father or telling Mary where He was going. Be careful not to take what was meant to communicate one thing and assume it was meant to communicate another thing.
Hi Kathi I don't know about the whippings and scourging because that could have been the distraction meaning someone else being whipped and scourged to the point of being bloody and less recognizable one thing is for sure Pontious Pilate was set on letting him go and so was Herod.
Luke 23:8-16
American Standard Version (ASV)
8 Now when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was of a long time desirous to see him, because he had heard concerning him; and he hoped to see some miracle done by him.
9 And he questioned him in many words; but he answered him nothing.
10 And the chief priests and the scribes stood, vehemently accusing him.
11 And Herod with his soldiers set him at nought, and mocked him, and arraying him in gorgeous apparel sent him back to Pilate.
12 And Herod and Pilate became friends with each other that very day: for before they were at enmity between themselves.
13 And Pilate called together the chief priests and the rulers and the people,
14 and said unto them, Ye brought unto me this man, as one that perverteth the people: and behold, I having examined him before you, found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him:
15 no, nor yet Herod: for he sent him back unto us; and behold, nothing worthy of death hath been done by him.
16 I will therefore chastise him, and release him.
Now Herod and Pilate became friends after that why do you think they would become friends after that? They both agreed Jesus should be let free so it is possible that they made sure he was set free otherwise why would these two become friends unless they had a secret to share.
To tell Mary where he would be doesn't require him putting himself and her under the same umbrella hecould have simply said “I am going to God my Father” but he was clear to say My God and Your God and My Father and Your Father, Kathi Jesus has a God are you really seriously going to tell me that the God of Jesus has a God?
Quote Jesus has a God are you really seriously going to tell me that the God of Jesus has a God? Confused…do you think I am telling you this?
Do you think that the man on the cross was not Jesus but someone else?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2012,09:21) Quote Jesus has a God are you really seriously going to tell me that the God of Jesus has a God? Confused…do you think I am telling you this?
Do you think that the man on the cross was not Jesus but someone else?
Jesus has a God, God(Father) has no God. I don't even like th fact that I have to keep putting the words God and Father together just to let you know that I am talking about GOD. When I say God you should KNOW it i not Jesus I am referring to. I am always referring to the ONLY GOD there is which is THE GOD OF JESUS who is the GOD OF ALL FLESH.As far as the cross is concerned. Jesus asked to be spared Pontious pilate and Herod thought he should be spared and they will let him go. the Quran says he was not killed or crucified but raised up to God. At the tomb Mary saw someone she thought was the gardener it turned out to be Jesus(she didn't recognize him, why?) Then he explains to his disciples that he is in no way a spirit and is instead flesh and bone and is hungry, then they see him taken up to heaven while still being physical and it is pointed out he will return the same way.
Bo,
We aren't told why she didn't recognize Him, maybe she didn't look intently, maybe she was teary and couldn't see clearly. It didn't take her long before she did recognize Him. She certainly wasn't expecting Him to be standing there.Thomas saw the scars in His hand and side and so this is proof that He was hung on the cross. This proves that it was Him that was tortured and nailed to the cross. If God was going to spare Him the 'cup' why in the world would He not spare Him the torture as well as the death? It seems like the torture would be worse than the death.
Much of the Bible would be wrong according to your view, Bo.
Romans 8
31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”l
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,m neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Cor 6
17But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. 19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.Heb 13
12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.Rev 5
6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.Bo, think about it, if satan was to devise a new religion that did not recognize the death and resurrection of the Son of God (since that is what purchased people and saves them from satan's stronghold) the religion that he develops would twist that truth to get people to not believe it. That is what he has done with the Islam religion as I see it.
It blows me away that you believe all those verses to be false. You believe someone was tortured and hung on the cross and died in the place of Christ when that is utterly false according to the scripture and the requirement for atonement.
Do you think that what Thomas saw and touched on Jesus' hands, etc. were fake scars?
John 20
24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”Furthermore, Bo, Jesus did not, at any time, claim or give the Father any glory for sparing Him the death of the cross after the crucifixion and resurrection. He has let people believe and write that He did in fact die and rise again…that He purchased the church with HIS blood.
Wouldn't that be dishonorable of Him and an abomination to lie at all about anything? Yet, you inadvertently claim that the Holy Spirit inspired the writers to say that He did die and purchase the church with His blood which you claim He didn't do.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 06 2012,03:14) Furthermore, Bo, Jesus did not, at any time, claim or give the Father any glory for sparing Him the death of the cross after the crucifixion and resurrection. He has let people believe and write that He did in fact die and rise again…that He purchased the church with HIS blood. Wouldn't that be dishonorable of Him and an abomination to lie at all about anything? Yet, you inadvertently claim that the Holy Spirit inspired the writers to say that He did die and purchase the church with His blood which you claim He didn't do.
Look in the beginning of any of the Gospels and show me where it says they were compelled by the Holy Spirit to write those things down, just remember these are the Gospel ACCORDING to…..Unlike the Old Testament God says very little directly.The writers wrote what they witnessed and what they did not witness directly they gathered from the account of others
2 Tim 3
13But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.Quote The writers wrote what they witnessed and what they did not witness directly they gathered from the account of others Do you believe that the OT was inspired and inerrant, Bo?
Bo,
Please read:
Acts 26:12“While so engaged as I was journeying to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests, 13at midday, O King, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining all around me and those who were journeying with me. 14“And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15“And I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16‘But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; 17rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’19“So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance. 21“For this reason some Jews seized me in the temple and tried to put me to death. 22“So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place; 23that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”
Paul was appointed by the risen Christ to testify what he has seen and what Christ will show him. Paul speaks about the Prophets and Moses, that they said what was going to take place…that Christ “WAS TO SUFFER, AND THAT BY REASON OF HIS RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD…”
Christ suffered and was dead and resurrected from the dead, Bo. Christ made Paul a minister and a witness to this these things.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 06 2012,13:12) 2 Tim 3
13But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.Quote The writers wrote what they witnessed and what they did not witness directly they gathered from the account of others Do you believe that the OT was inspired and inerrant, Bo?
Yes and the Irony is the OT says itself that it has been corrupted:Jeremiah 8:8 (ASV)
8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of Jehovah is with us? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes hath wrought falsely.
The Quran agrees:
Of the jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say: “We hear and we disobey”; and “Hear what is not Heard”; and “Ra'ina”; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said: “What hear and we obey”; and “Do hear”; and “Do look at us”; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #46)O Messenger! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say “We believe” with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, “If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!” If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such – it is not Allah's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #41)Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 06 2012,14:23) Bo,
Please read:
Acts 26:12“While so engaged as I was journeying to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests, 13at midday, O King, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining all around me and those who were journeying with me. 14“And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15“And I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16‘But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; 17rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’19“So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance. 21“For this reason some Jews seized me in the temple and tried to put me to death. 22“So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place; 23that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”
Paul was appointed by the risen Christ to testify what he has seen and what Christ will show him. Paul speaks about the Prophets and Moses, that they said what was going to take place…that Christ “WAS TO SUFFER, AND THAT BY REASON OF HIS RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD…”
Christ suffered and was dead and resurrected from the dead, Bo. Christ made Paul a minister and a witness to this these things.
Tre is no mention of a Messiah being Cucified or killed and resurrected in the OT if there was there would be no dispute with Jews today.There is mention of it right here:
Isaiah 53The Suffering Servant
1Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?2For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.3He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.4Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 06 2012,15:07) There is mention of it right here:
Isaiah 53The Suffering Servant
1Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?2For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.3He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.4Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
Hi Kathi You were taught this was about Jesus but lets look at the facts:
Quote 1Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?2For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.3He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.This could not pertain to Jesus he was WILDLY popular and everyone was drawn to him, in-fact it was one of the reasons the authorities wanted to kill him and charged him with sedition.
Quote 4Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.Jesus was seen in general by the population as being blessed many were coming from all over to be blessed by him
Quote 5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.This is where you are getting the idea from simply because of words like pierce but this is not saying he was sacrificed for us
Quote 7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.This could not apply to Christ he spoke to everyone in the scriptures during this crises he spoke to pontious pilate to the crowd…etc. He was anything but quite
Quote 8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.Who would you be considering the offspring of Christ? and how would you consider his days prolonged? If you are consideing eternal life as the prolonging of days then you are totally incorrect because a prolonging in no ways equates to “eternal life”
Quote 11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgre
ssors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.Now your argument that Jesus is God or a God doesn't make sense with this last verse because you said all things were made through him and by him and here you accept that he will be alotted a portion with the great?
Bo,
you said about vs. 1, 2 and 3:Quote This could not pertain to Jesus he was WILDLY popular and everyone was drawn to him, in-fact it was one of the reasons the authorities wanted to kill him and charged him with sedition. Vs. 2 speaks about appearance. He was not popular because of His looks and physique but because of His love, wisdom and power.
vs. 3 He wasn't supported so greatly on the day He was brought before Pilate, was He. The people were wanting Him crucified.
Quote Jesus was seen in general by the population as being blessed many were coming from all over to be blessed by him Verse 4 is about the One that had so many followers but dying as forsaken by God. They thought His death meant that He wasn't who He claimed to be…but that all changed with the resurrection.
Quote
This is where you are getting the idea from simply because of words like pierce but this is not saying he was sacrificed for usVerse 5-6 is about Jesus being pierced in the side on the cross after He actually died in the flesh. It is clear that the Father identified Him as the sacrificial 'lamb' because YHWH the Father caused all our iniquities to fall on Him.
Quote This could not apply to Christ he spoke to everyone in the scriptures during this crises he spoke to pontious pilate to the crowd…etc. He was anything but quite Vs. 6 and 7 Peter writes about this, He reviled not in return…He did not call down the angels for His defense either:
1 Peter 2:23
21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 22WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; 23and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 25For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.Quote Who would you be considering the offspring of Christ? and how would you consider his days prolonged? If you are consideing eternal life as the prolonging of days then you are totally incorrect because a prolonging in no ways equates to “eternal life” Verses 8, 9, and 10…Christ gives eternal life to many…they would be His 'offspring' in that sense. Prolonged days would equate to eternal life in this case.
From Gill's commentary:
He shall see his seed; or, “a seed”; a spiritual seed and offspring; a large number of souls, that shall be born again, of incorruptible seed, as the fruit of his sufferings and death; see John 12:24, this he presently began to see after his resurrection from the dead, and ascension to heaven; when great numbers were converted among the Jews, and after that multitudes in the Gentile world, and more or less in all ages; ever since has he had a seed to serve him; and so he will in the latter day, and to the end of time:he shall prolong his days: live long, throughout all ages, to all eternity; though he was dead, he is alive, and lives for evermore; lives to see all the children that the Father gave him, and he has gathered together by his death, when scattered abroad, and see them all born again, and brought to glory. Some connect this with the preceding clause, “he shall see a seed that shall prolong its days” (b); for Christ will never want issue, his church will never fail, his seed will endure for ever, Psalm 89:29.
From: http://bible.cc/isaiah/53-10.htm
Quote Now your argument that Jesus is God or a God doesn't make sense with this last verse because you said all things were made through him and by him and here you accept that he will be alotted a portion with the great? I believe this is regarding eternal life, which He had prior to emptying Himself apparently since He died. He was given this eternal life back again and because He died, He is able to give this life to all that the Father has given Him.
Bo, it is as clear as day that the Bible says He suffered and died in several places. This is a foundational truth of Christianity. Jesus' death and resurrection gained Him the victory to gain and give eternal life…offered to you. Why in the world would you want to deny the price He paid to be able to offer you this eternal gift?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 07 2012,16:16) Bo,
you said about vs. 1, 2 and 3:Quote This could not pertain to Jesus he was WILDLY popular and everyone was drawn to him, in-fact it was one of the reasons the authorities wanted to kill him and charged him with sedition. Vs. 2 speaks about appearance. He was not popular because of His looks and physique but because of His love, wisdom and power.
vs. 3 He wasn't supported so greatly on the day He was brought before Pilate, was He. The people were wanting Him crucified.
Quote Jesus was seen in general by the population as being blessed many were coming from all over to be blessed by him Verse 4 is about the One that had so many followers but dying as forsaken by God. They thought His death meant that He wasn't who He claimed to be…but that all changed with the resurrection.
Quote
This is where you are getting the idea from simply because of words like pierce but this is not saying he was sacrificed for usVerse 5-6 is about Jesus being pierced in the side on the cross after He actually died in the flesh. It is clear that the Father identified Him as the sacrificial 'lamb' because YHWH the Father caused all our iniquities to fall on Him.
Quote This could not apply to Christ he spoke to everyone in the scriptures during this crises he spoke to pontious pilate to the crowd…etc. He was anything but quite Vs. 6 and 7 Peter writes about this, He reviled not in return…He did not call down the angels for His defense either:
1 Peter 2:23
21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 22WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; 23and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 25For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.Quote Who would you be considering the offspring of Christ? and how would you consider his days prolonged? If you are consideing eternal life as the prolonging of days then you are totally incorrect because a prolonging in no ways equates to “eternal life” Verses 8, 9, and 10…Christ gives eternal life to many…they would be His 'offspring' in that sense. Prolonged days would equate to eternal life in this case.
From Gill's commentary:
He shall see his seed; or, “a seed”; a spiritual seed and offspring; a large number of souls, that shall be born again, of incorruptible seed, as the fruit of his sufferings and death; see John 12:24, this he presently began to see after his resurrection from the dead, and ascension to heaven; when great numbers were converted among the Jews, and after that multitudes in the Gentile world, and more or less in all ages; ever since has he had a seed to serve him; and so he will in the latter day, and to the end of time:he shall prolong his days: live long, throughout all ages, to all eternity; though he was dead, he is alive, and lives for evermore; lives to see all the children that the Father gave him, and he has gathered together by his death, when scattered abroad, and see them all born again, and brought to glory. Some connect this with the preceding clause, “he shall see a seed that shall prolong its days” (b); for Christ will never want issue, his church will never fail, his seed will endure for ever, Psalm 89:29.
From: http://bible.cc/isaiah/53-10.htm
Quote Now your argument that Jesus is God or a God doesn't make sense with this last verse because you said all things were made through him and by him and here you accept that he will be alotted a portion with the great? I believe this is regarding eternal life, which He had prior to emptying Himself apparently since He died. He was given this eternal life back again and because He died, He is able to give this life to all that the Father has given Him.
Bo, it is as clear as day that the Bible says He suffered and died in several places. This is a foundational truth of Christianity. Jesus' death and resurrection gained Him the victory to gain and give eternal life…offered to you. Why in the world would you want to deny the price He paid to be able to offer you this eternal gift?
The point is that people were very attracted to Jesus even Pontious Pilate and Herod admired him nd the prolonging of days seem intended for mortal life and not an interruption of that life in otherwords if someone dies and gets a new life that is not prolonging the life is it?, because it would be a new lifeMy point is taking an old paragraph and looking at it in hindsight you can force it to apply, the Jews don't see those verses as applying to Jesus nor do those verses mention who this suffering servant is no mention if it is the Messiah at all no mention of a resurrection at all, I am not even saying it's not possible that it is referring to Jesus what I am saying is it is possible that it is not referring to Jesus.
You seem to have this habit of reading into the text what is not plain and clear, not only you because most people read into things with their own bias but I'm just saying if you do that too much you create a “secret or strange doctrine”
Bo, is referring the Messiah with this Isaiah passage a secret or strange doctrine? Isn't this a very popular understanding?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 07 2012,23:13) Bo, is referring the Messiah with this Isaiah passage a secret or strange doctrine? Isn't this a very popular understanding?
It is a very popular understanding that has no basis in fact, think about it everytime you hear words like “pierce” or “Crucify” you think of Jesus, right? Even a simple series of words like “nail”, “feet” and “hands” will bring about a crucifixion in the mind. it's the way our brains work we will fill
in the blanks ourselves even if the information is not about what we fill it in to mean.for instance if I say the word “Arab” you might assume “Muslim” although there are arab Christians and Jews
Many people were raised from the dead but when you think of the concept “Jesus” not Lazarus pops into your mind when I say words like Holy War you think Islam although the term came from Christian Crusaders
Bo, the Bible teaches that Jesus was pierced and crucified and resurrected from the dead. Do you agree that this is what the Bible teaches? Yes or no
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
