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Hi Bo,
you said:Quote I see from the video why you believe the way you do,… That is great that you watched the video, I really appreciate that. It helps you see that there are scriptural reasons for what I believe and that I am not alone in this. It also helps you see that a common understanding of the Jew, regarding monotheism, allowed for two powers of YHWH and not just one.
Quote … however Jesus already explained that position saying So, you agree that Jesus was verifying that He should be called 'God,' correct?
The reason you think this seems to be because Jesus acts on behalf of God, the Father, correct?My position is that there are two powers of YHWH, one God of gods and one Lord of lords, and YHWH is one eternal unity in some contexts (the Shema for example) and YHWH is also the name for each 'power' within the unity.
So, when you see those passages that you mentioned regarding the 'angel' wrestling with Jacob and others mentioned in the video, I see the second power of YHWH/the Son of God/the Lord of lords/the one who came to be in the flesh known as Yeshua, who at times is called 'the Angel of YHWH' or 'the NAME' or 'the Glory' or 'the Presence' or 'the Word' or even 'YHWH,' etc.
Something I would like you to see and admit is that a unity of more than one member can take on a singular verb and a singular pronoun and therefore, your argument that 'He' is used with YHWH must mean one person isn't necessarily true. See here:
Psalms 149:2
Let Israel be glad in his Maker; Let the sons of Zion rejoice in their King.
Israel is a name of one man (Jacob)
Israel is also a name of a unity of the sons of Zion/Jacob (Israel).In the above verse please note that Israel is a proper name of a unity and 'be glad' is a singular verb, and 'his' is a singular pronoun. I looked it up in the Hebrew to verify it, btw.
In the parallel clause that follows this you can see that 'sons of Zion' is a plural term which goes with 'rejoice' which is a plural verb, and also goes with 'his' which is written in the Hebrew as a plural pronoun.YHWH is a name for a single eternal power.
YHWH is also a name for a unity of eternal power, the power of God of gods (Father) and the power of Lord of lords (Son).Both ways use singular verbs and singular pronouns.
Now, can you admit that a singular pronoun and singular verb can be used for a unity of more than one member, and therefore, your argument that 'He' is used with YHWH must mean one person isn't necessarily true.?
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 31 2012,22:48) Hi Bo,
you said:Quote I see from the video why you believe the way you do,… That is great that you watched the video, I really appreciate that. It helps you see that there are scriptural reasons for what I believe and that I am not alone in this. It also helps you see that a common understanding of the Jew, regarding monotheism, allowed for two powers of YHWH and not just one.
Quote … however Jesus already explained that position saying So, you agree that Jesus was verifying that He should be called 'God,' correct?
The reason you think this seems to be because Jesus acts on behalf of God, the Father, correct?My position is that there are two powers of YHWH, one God of gods and one Lord of lords, and YHWH is one eternal unity in some contexts (the Shema for example) and YHWH is also the name for each 'power' within the unity.
So, when you see those passages that you mentioned regarding the 'angel' wrestling with Jacob and others mentioned in the video, I see the second power of YHWH/the Son of God/the Lord of lords/the one who came to be in the flesh known as Yeshua, who at times is called 'the Angel of YHWH' or 'the NAME' or 'the Glory' or 'the Presence' or 'the Word' or even 'YHWH,' etc.
Something I would like you to see and admit is that a unity of more than one member can take on a singular verb and a singular pronoun and therefore, your argument that 'He' is used with YHWH must mean one person isn't necessarily true. See here:
Psalms 149:2
Let Israel be glad in his Maker; Let the sons of Zion rejoice in their King.
Israel is a name of one man (Jacob)
Israel is also a name of a unity of the sons of Zion/Jacob (Israel).In the above verse please note that Israel is a proper name of a unity and 'be glad' is a singular verb, and 'his' is a singular pronoun. I looked it up in the Hebrew to verify it, btw.
In the parallel clause that follows this you can see that 'sons of Zion' is a plural term which goes with 'rejoice' which is a plural verb, and also goes with 'his' which is written in the Hebrew as a plural pronoun.YHWH is a name for a single eternal power.
YHWH is also a name for a unity of eternal power, the power of God of gods (Father) and the power of Lord of lords (Son).Both ways use singular verbs and singular pronouns.
Now, can you admit that a singular pronoun and singular verb can be used for a unity of more than one member, and therefore, your argument that 'He' is used with YHWH must mean one person isn't necessarily true.?
I understand your point such as saying in baseball “the world series” it is bot a singles series and a series of multiple games but in the cases of God not only are single pronouns used once but they are backed up with supporting singular in number pronouns and also words that clarify those pronouns in number such as verses containing “I”, “Alone”, and “No one else”If we go back to the baseball analogy if there was only one game being played it would be supported such as this One Game, there will be no other.
God has said in scripture that there was no God before Him nor shall there be one formed after him it does not leave room for any other “gods” and so when Jesus says that “The Father” is THE ONLY TRUE GOD he is backing up the statement made by God Himself here are the statements:
Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.One verse is coming from God Almighty Himself and the second verse supports the claim Of God Almighty
Do you see my point?
Hi Bo,
I understand what you are saying but I can use the same verses to show YHWH is a unity and back it up with the NT and all those verses that were in that video.Look at Isaiah 43:10 with the understanding that the LORD (YHWH) is the God of gods (the Father) and the Lord of lords (the Son):
Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD [ the God of gods (the Father) and the Lord of lords (the Son)], and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me [the God of gods (the Father) and the Lord of lords (the Son)], and understand that I [the God of gods (the Father) and the Lord of lords (the Son)] am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.Or just add 'the eternal unity' to clarify like this:
Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, (the eternal unity,) and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me, (the eternal unity,) there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.Do you see how reading that verse with 'the eternal unity' understanding can make sense?
The NT constantly shows one God and one Lord together. What one does, the other does likewise. Their wrath will come on the day of the Lord. They are one. 1 Cor 8:6 tells us there is one God and one Lord. The Father and the Son sit on one throne in Revelations. The Son says to give Him the same honor that is given to the Father. The Son is worshiped and ALL knees will bow to Jesus which glorifies the Father. God gives life, God judges all mankind. Jesus gives eternal life, Jesus judges all mankind. YHWH is the only savior of all mankind for eternal salvation…Jesus was sent to be the savior of all mankind for eternal salvation. YHWH says He created alone yet the Word was with God and was God and nothing came into being apart from the Word that became flesh. The Targums show Jewish understanding that a second power of YHWH is the Word. YHWH is the Lord of lords, Jesus is the Lord of lords. YHWH is the First and the Last, Jesus is the First and the Last.
The 'only true God' is the Father, according to Jesus BUT the one Lord/Lord of lords is Jesus and YHWH is BOTH the only true God AND the Lord of lords!!!!!!!
Jesus never says to the Father or about the Father that He is the only true YHWH although He may call Him YHWH/LORD. Jesus is also YHWH.
If Jacob who is called Israel, gave his firstborn his name 'Israel' then there would be two persons named Israel and of course the unity of many members who were the sons of Israel are called Israel. Then there would be two members called Israel and a unity called Israel.
Scripture tells us that Jesus was given the Father's name here:
John 17:“I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11“I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.So unless the Father is named Yeshua, or Christ, or Son of God, or Son of Man, or the Lamb, the name of the Father's that was given to the Son is YHWH. This would explain the YHWH talking to Abraham in Gen 18 who is said to be face to face with Abe who refers to Him as YHWH who judges the world…and the Gen 19 passage that shows one YHWH sending fire, etc from the YHWH in heaven. It also explains the other scriptures that have the Angel of YHWH/the Word/the Presence/the Glory, etc. identified as YHWH.
The Jews understood a second power of YHWH and non-canonical inter-testament writings demonstrate attempts to identify the second power and did not think that it threatened the monotheism of their faith.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,06:32) Hi Bo,
I understand what you are saying but I can use the same verses to show YHWH is a unity and back it up with the NT and all those verses that were in that video.Look at Isaiah 43:10 with the understanding that the LORD (YHWH) is the God of gods (the Father) and the Lord of lords (the Son):
Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD [ the God of gods (the Father) and the Lord of lords (the Son)], and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me [the God of gods (the Father) and the Lord of lords (the Son)], and understand that I [the God of gods (the Father) and the Lord of lords (the Son)] am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.Or just add 'the eternal unity' to clarify like this:
Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, (the eternal unity,) and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me, (the eternal unity,) there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.Do you see how reading that verse with 'the eternal unity' understanding can make sense?
The NT constantly shows one God and one Lord together. What one does, the other does likewise. Their wrath will come on the day of the Lord. They are one. 1 Cor 8:6 tells us there is one God and one Lord. The Father and the Son sit on one throne in Revelations. The Son says to give Him the same honor that is given to the Father. The Son is worshiped and ALL knees will bow to Jesus which glorifies the Father. God gives life, God judges all mankind. Jesus gives eternal life, Jesus judges all mankind. YHWH is the only savior of all mankind for eternal salvation…Jesus was sent to be the savior of all mankind for eternal salvation. YHWH says He created alone yet the Word was with God and was God and nothing came into being apart from the Word that became flesh. The Targums show Jewish understanding that a second power of YHWH is the Word. YHWH is the Lord of lords, Jesus is the Lord of lords. YHWH is the First and the Last, Jesus is the First and the Last.
The 'only true God' is the Father, according to Jesus BUT the one Lord/Lord of lords is Jesus and YHWH is BOTH the only true God AND the Lord of lords!!!!!!!
Jesus never says to the Father or about the Father that He is the only true YHWH although He may call Him YHWH/LORD. Jesus is also YHWH.
If Jacob who is called Israel, gave his firstborn his name 'Israel' then there would be two persons named Israel and of course the unity of many members who were the sons of Israel are called Israel. Then there would be two members called Israel and a unity called Israel.
Scripture tells us that Jesus was given the Father's name here:
John 17:“I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11“I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.So unless the Father is named Yeshua, or Christ, or Son of God, or Son of Man, or the Lamb, the name of the Father's that was given to the Son is YHWH. This would explain the YHWH talking to Abraham in Gen 18 who is said to be face to face with Abe who refers to Him as YHWH who judges the world…and the Gen 19 passage that shows one YHWH sending fire, etc from the YHWH in heaven. It also explains the other scriptures that have the Angel of YHWH/the Word/the Presence/the Glory, etc. identified as YHWH.
The Jews understood a second power of YHWH and non-canonical inter-testament writings demonstrate attempts to identify the second power and did not think that it threatened the monotheism of their faith.
Here is the problem with what you are saying you will not explain why Jesus calls The Father “THE ONLY TRUE GOD”or why the scripture also says:
1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.Is Jesus accurate or not when he calls the Father THE ONLY TRUE GOD?
Bo,
Quote Here is the problem with what you are saying you will not explain why Jesus calls The Father “THE ONLY TRUE GOD” Yes, I did explain why Jesus calls the Father 'the only true God.'
I said this in my last post and have said this several times:
“The 'only true God' is the Father, according to Jesus BUT the one Lord/Lord of lords is Jesus and YHWH is BOTH the only true God AND the Lord of lords!!!!!!!”
Quote
1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.The kingdom that is delivered up is the kingdom of this dark world, to God the Father by the Lord Jesus. Jesus reigns on earth for 1000 years and after the millenium, satan will be forever destroyed. Jesus wins and no other opposing ruler or opposing authority will exist, then Jesus gives the keys to the kingdom back to the Father who was in the beginning with the Son, existing before all opposing ruler or opposing authority.
There are two members in the YHWH echad, the eternal unity. One member is God the Father and the other member is the Lord Jesus Christ. In your verse, the one member, Jesus Christ conquers all opposing forces and returns the keys to the kingdom of darkness, which is no longer dark, to the Father, His God.
The two members make up the one unity.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,12:28) Bo, Quote Here is the problem with what you are saying you will not explain why Jesus calls The Father “THE ONLY TRUE GOD” Yes, I did explain why Jesus calls the Father 'the only true God.'
I said this in my last post and have said this several times:
“The 'only true God' is the Father, according to Jesus BUT the one Lord/Lord of lords is Jesus and YHWH is BOTH the only true God AND the Lord of lords!!!!!!!”
Hi Kathi:)Okay then you agree that Jesus is not a TRUE GOD, you simply believe he is Lord which simply means ruler or master which of course if you believe that then you must also believe that surely Jesus is a servant to THE ONLY TRUE GOD and not a ruler or master over God, correct?
It seems you agree then with my entire pointHi Bo,
I do believe that Jesus is a true God since like begets like, not like begets less than like. I believe that He is Lord…the Lord of lords that YHWH is. I do not believe that He is the ruler or master over the Father.In the context of John 17:
2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.The Father is called the 'only true God' and that would not be 'God' in the fullest sense because God in the fullest sense includes not only the Father but also the Son and their Holy Spirit.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2012,14:49) Hi Bo,
I do believe that Jesus is a true God since like begets like, not like begets less than like. I believe that He is Lord…the Lord of lords that YHWH is. I do not believe that He is the ruler or master over the Father.In the context of John 17:
2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.The Father is called the 'only true God' and that would not be 'God' in the fullest sense because God in the fullest sense includes not only the Father but also the Son and their Holy Spirit.
Jesus said “THE ONLY TRUE GOD” is this 100% correct or does Jesus have it wrong?The Father is not the only true God in the 'fullest' sense since the fullest sense would be the one true God AND the Lord of lords together with their Spirit. The YHWH Echad, the eternal unity is God in the fullest sense. But, the Father is the only true God in a more specific sense compared to the created gods.
It seems for you that God in His fullest sense is only the God of gods but not the Lord of lords. You are missing the Lord of lords, Bo.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2012,15:56) The Father is not the only true God in the 'fullest' sense since the fullest sense would be the one true God AND the Lord of lords together with their Spirit. The YHWH Echad, the eternal unity is God in the fullest sense. But, the Father is the only true God in a more specific sense compared to the created gods. It seems for you that God in His fullest sense is only the God of gods but not the Lord of lords. You are missing the Lord of lords, Bo.
This is what Jesus says:Matthew 22:37-38
King James Version (KJV)
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
When Jesus says love the Lord thy God who is he talking about?
Hi Bo, the command is to love YHWH your God…YHWH is the God of gods and the Lord of lords-YHWH Echad, the eternal unity.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2012,16:45) Hi Bo, the command is to love YHWH your God…YHWH is the God of gods and the Lord of lords-YHWH Echad, the eternal unity.
You siad that there were 2 YHWHs so I asked you which YHWH was JESUS talking about? Was he referring to himself at all? Yes or No?Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2012,06:32) He was referring to the YHWH Echad which He is a part of with the Father.
So are you then saying that there is God that knows all and God that doesn't know all but still only one God?Bo,
What is better, to be all loving or all knowing. What if not knowing something is due to a loving reason. Maybe it is for the sake of love that the Father only knows the day and the hour to spare the Son of having to make that call. We don't know why the Son does not know the day or the hour of His return but if love is greater than knowledge, love rules out if it is more loving for the Son not to know. To assume that because the Son does not know the date of His return and therefore He can not be the all-knowing God like His Father, even though He knows everything else that can be known by God, is to judge without all the facts, imo. Love would trump knowledge if it were a choice.Those are just some thoughts that I have been having on the matter lately. Omniscience is elusive and impossible to understand. I don't know that God knows everything that is going to happen to the nth degree. It is ok with me if He doesn't but I believe that God knows more than any other type of being and has the main things known and His purposes will not be thwarted. He can turn anything out for good to those who are called according to His name. He is in control of the outcome, in other words.
So, to answer your question, I think the Father and the Son know the most over any other being but I think it is highly likely that neither the Father or the Son know 'all' to the nth degree. For example, if God says that something that some people were doing had never entered His mind, then He didn't know ahead of time that those people would ever think of doing the 'whatever.'
For example:
Jeremiah 7:31
“They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.Jeremiah 19:5
and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;Jeremiah 32:35
“They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.So, maybe from these verses, you can see that God doesn't know everything or He would not say that something had not entered His mind.
There is one YHWH Echad, the eternal unity, made up of two powers…the God of gods and the Lord of lords. The YHWH Echad is our God ('God' in the fullest general sense) to include our one God ('God” in a singular entity sense), the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ. Both know as much as is possible and/or profitable to know.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2012,13:04) Bo,
What is better, to be all loving or all knowing. What if not knowing something is due to a loving reason. Maybe it is for the sake of love that the Father only knows the day and the hour to spare the Son of having to make that call. We don't know why the Son does not know the day or the hour of His return but if love is greater than knowledge, love rules out if it is more loving for the Son not to know. To assume that because the Son does not know the date of His return and therefore He can not be the all-knowing God like His Father, even though He knows everything else that can be known by God, is to judge without all the facts, imo. Love would trump knowledge if it were a choice.Those are just some thoughts that I have been having on the matter lately. Omniscience is elusive and impossible to understand. I don't know that God knows everything that is going to happen to the nth degree. It is ok with me if He doesn't but I believe that God knows more than any other type of being and has the main things known and His purposes will not be thwarted. He can turn anything out for good to those who are called according to His name. He is in control of the outcome, in other words.
So, to answer your question, I think the Father and the Son know the most over any other being but I think it is highly likely that neither the Father or the Son know 'all' to the nth degree. For example, if God says that something that some people were doing had never entered His mind, then He didn't know ahead of time that those people would ever think of doing the 'whatever.'
For example:
Jeremiah 7:31
“They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.Jeremiah 19:5
and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;Jeremiah 32:35
“They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.So, maybe from these verses, you can see that God doesn't know everything or He would not say that something had not entered His mind.
There is one YHWH Echad, the eternal unity, made up of two powers…the God of gods and the Lord of lords. The YHWH Echad is our God ('God' in the fullest general sense) to include our one God ('God” in a singular entity sense), the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ. Both know as much as is possible and/or profitable to know.
So what you are saying is the sacrificing of a son is an abomination and foreign to God, right? I agree.God isn't saying he doesn't know wha they did He is saying it never even came to His mind to command such a thing although Christians believe it is Gods command that Jesus was to be crucified as a sacrifice.
So anyway how is a unity the same as degree of power and authority? Even if I agreed with you there still couldn't be 2 Gods called THe MOST HIGH wha would be the point of saying MOST High?
Bo,
Quote So what you are saying is the sacrificing of a son is an abomination and foreign to God, right? I agree. The sacrificing that was happening in those scriptures was not a mutual desire between the children being sacrificed and the parents who are sacrificing them from what I can tell and therefore it was murder by the parents. If a person willingly lays down their life for God, that is not an abomination to God. It is an abomination when their life is forcefully taken from them as a supposed sacrifice and not commanded by God. Someone who willingly lays down their life for God even unto death can show no greater love. That is admirable and rewarded but this should not be confused with suicide.
Quote God isn't saying he doesn't know wha they did He is saying it never even came to His mind to command such a thing although Christians believe it is Gods command that Jesus was to be crucified as a sacrifice. Well, it was God the Father's preferred will and Jesus' choice for Him to be a sacrifice but the Son could have chosen not to lay down His life, He could have gone back to the Father without being a sacrifice and not have been disobedient by doing that, from what I can tell. If He had done that, the Son would have been doing the Father's permitted will but not His preferred will. The Son always seeks to do the Father's preferred will.
Quote So anyway how is a unity the same as degree of power and authority? Even if I agreed with you there still couldn't be 2 Gods called THe MOST HIGH wha would be the point of saying MOST High? Context rules as to who or what is the most high. The Father can be the God that is the most high Father. The Son can be the God that is the most high Son. The unity of the Father, Son with their Spirit can be the most high God in the fullest general sense of the term 'Most High.'
The Father is greater than the Son because the Son came from within the Father and the Father was never within anyone. That is why the Son would be the 'second' power of YHWH and not the 'first' power of YHWH.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2012,14:12) Bo, Quote So what you are saying is the sacrificing of a son is an abomination and foreign to God, right? I agree. The sacrificing that was happening in those scriptures was not a mutual desire between the children being sacrificed and the parents who are sacrificing them from what I can tell and therefore it was murder by the parents. If a person willingly lays down their life for God, that is not an abomination to God. It is an abomination when their life is forcefully taken from them as a supposed sacrifice and not commanded by God. Someone who willingly lays down their life for God even unto death can show no greater love. That is admirable and rewarded but this should not be confused with suicide.
Quote God isn't saying he doesn't know wha they did He is saying it never even came to His mind to command such a thing although Christians believe it is Gods command that Jesus was to be crucified as a sacrifice. Well, it was God the Father's preferred will and Jesus' choice for Him to be a sacrifice but the Son could have chosen not to lay down His life, He could have gone back to the Father without being a sacrifice and not have been disobedient by doing that, from what I can tell. If He had done that, the Son would have been doing the Father's permitted will but not His preferred will. The Son always seeks to do the Father's preferred will.
Quote So anyway how is a unity the same as degree of power and authority? Even if I agreed with you there still couldn't be 2 Gods called THe MOST HIGH wha would be the point of saying MOST High? Context rules as to who or what is the most high. The Father can be the God that is the most high Father. The Son can be the God that is the most high Son. The unity of the Father, Son with their Spirit can be the most high God in the fullest general sense of the term 'Most High.'
The Father is greater than the Son because the Son came from within the Father and the Father was never within anyone. That is why the Son would be the 'second' power of YHWH and not the 'first' power of YHWH.
Jesus asked the cup to be taken away from him so no it was not his will. He asked 3 times for it not to happen so that is not an agreement and no where does it say God asked of Jesus to be sacrificed.Anyway so once again you agree that “The First” Power is the greatest Power and if that is the case why don't you consider that “First Power” as Sovereign?
Bo,
Prove what the 'cup' was…was it being a sacrifice or was it being tortured. I don't believe that He was asking to not be the sacrifice but was asking to not be tortured. He could have ascended right there in the garden if He wanted to. It was His choice to stay and die. He chose to die before He came as man, that is why He came as a man. He was not forced to die.Quote
Anyway so once again you agree that “The First” Power is the greatest Power and if that is the case why don't you consider that “First Power” as Sovereign?I consider both powers interdependently sovereign.
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