LU and BD Biblical discussion cont’d

[Lightenup]

@bodhitharta
From what I can tell, the ‘divine always existent Son’ always perfectly honors and glorified His Father and His Father perfectly honors and glorifies His Son. There is no need for religious worship within their relationship. The Son wasn’t created by anyone and has no need for another being to save Him.

When the pre-existent Son, the only begotten God-Jehovah of hosts from Isaiah 8, became flesh…He humbled Himself. We see proof of this humbled state because the Son worshiped His Father as His God. The Father later exalted Him back to the Son’s previous glory which He had with the Father before creation and requires all of creation to honor the Son as they honor the Father.

There are three eternal entities, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit…they together form one eternal entity. The idea of the term ‘entity’ can represent a singular presence or a unified presence. I have used the term in both ways in my statement. Do you understand this, Bo?

Btw, how do you celebrate Christmas or do you simply avoid celebrating Christmas? I am genuinely curious.

[bodhitharta]

Christmas is a pagan celebration and practice even as a Christian I did not celebrate it. I am wondering where does the bible say “divine always existent Son”? You say the son was not created by anyone does that mean that the Father did no create him and if not what does begotten mean?

[Lightenup]

@boditharta
Actually, the belief that Christmas is a pagan celebration is a false belief. Some ways that pagans celebrate Christmas are certainly pagan, though. I’m sorry that you don’t realize the freedom to enjoy this wonderful time and opportunity to worship Jehovah in this celebration.

Christmas is a Christian celebration which serves to remember and teach the miracle of the incarnation of the Jehovah of hosts from Isaiah 8 as He humbled Himself and was sent by His Father to become a man and eventually the ‘stone of stumbling’ that Isaiah 8 addresses. The origins of the incarnation are from the mind of Jehovah before the foundation of the world. No pagan origins.

You asked:

I am wondering where does the bible say “divine always existent Son”?

The Son is:
Divine: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Always existent: 1 John 1:2…the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

Son: John 3 16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Begotten: beget, bring forth, give birth to

[bodhitharta]

I worship God daily no need for a special day, how does decorating a tree and setting it up in your home glorify God?

How does fostering a belief in Santa Claus, elves and flying reindeer glorify God?

• Luke 1:2

“Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning (arche) were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word (logos)”

Notice the term “beginning” and “logos” how is it you take this beginning and logos differently from John 1:1?

The term eternal does not also mean always eternal other wise would you say that you receiving eternal life from salvation is something you already had since eternity past?

[Lightenup]

@bodhitharta
You think you worship God daily but you never celebrate the incarnation and in fact you deny it’s existence. Do you deny the other miracles of God also and call that worship?

If you believed in the miracle of the incarnation, you could take advantage of Christmas to remind/teach this story of God’s greatest gift to the next generation much like celebrating Passover year after year like the Jews do or Hanukkah . Christmas typically brings families together. My family and I were together even though one of my sons lives in S. Korea and another lives in NYC and another lives 100 miles away. We are a close family and spent part of the day taking my kids to see a vacant lot that we plan on building our next home on. We held hands and prayed for God’s direction and blessing on that land for many generations to come. During the day, we exchanged gifts that we bought for one another and were very happy to give them, it was a sweet time. We started out the morning singing to Jesus and reading the Christmas story of Mary and Joseph and the incarnation. Our tree and our traditions are filled with decorations that remind us of our lives throughout the year and God’s faithfulness. We enjoy the decorations. It is enjoyable to change how the home looks from time to time. At night I made a special meal for the whole family…I grilled steak and lobster in my kitchen fireplace. We thank the LORD for His provision and enjoy friends and family. If you don’t think a Christmas tree can glorify God, then you haven’t looked for it. I’m sorry you have no experience with seeing a beautifully decorated Christmas tree that glorifies God, there are many around!

In the OT, God says to teach our children and remember the special occasions. This is what we do year after year…that is not to say that we forget about the incarnation during the other days of the year but we emphasize it on Christmas Day. Why would you have a problem with that?

you asked:

How does fostering a belief in Santa Claus, elves and flying reindeer glorify God?

It doesn’t and we don’t foster that belief.

You seem to have a very limited view of how many Christians celebrate Christmas, Bo. I’m sorry you have such a critical spirit towards the celebration. Look for the good and you will find it. Look for the evil and you will find it. God calls us to dwell on the good.

[Lightenup]

@bodhitharta
you asked:

Luke 1:2

“Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning (arche) were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word (logos)”

Notice the term “beginning” and “logos” how is it you take this beginning and logos differently from John 1:1?

The context is different.

Also, you said:

The term eternal does not also mean always eternal other wise would you say that you receiving eternal life from salvation is something you already had since eternity past?

Sometimes ‘eternal’ does mean always existent. The eternal life that is spoken about in 1 John 1 is Jesus and the Bible clearly tells us that He is the source of life. The source of life would not have a source of his life or that source would be the source of life.

Acts 3:15 and you killed the source of life, whom God raised from the dead. We are witnesses to that.

[bodhitharta]

Hi LU,

Peace and blessings to you and your family, I didn’t say I was critical of the Holiday itself it sounds like you and your family has a very blessed and spiritually constructive time and that’s awesome.

Now as far as John 1:1, there is an automatic tendency to equate that verse to Genesis, because we read about “The beginning” in Genesis we take John 1:1 in the same context but on closer examination it appears John is speaking about Jesus in the context of a not so distant past in other words the beginning of the Gospel.

Genesis 1:1

[ The Beginning ] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Notice what Luke says

Luke 1:3

With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,

Notice he is talking about the beginning? The beginning of what? The Gospel

1 John 2:24

As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.

What beginning did they here it from? certainly not the beginning of time

So here you have:

John 1:1

[ The Word Became Flesh ] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Now put this in the proper context and you have this beginning meaning the beginning of the Gospel and not the Genesis beginning like most Christians assume because of the poetic nature of the writing because look:

John 1:6

⁶ There was a man sent from God whose name was John. ⁷ He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe.

So 1-5 is an introduction for the gospel it is beautiful but it is for the sake of the Gospel and not a historical statement otherwise John would literally have been sent from before the beginning, right?

[Lightenup]

@bodhitharta
Thank you, we are blessed beyond measure!

you said:

Now as far as John 1:1, there is an automatic tendency to equate that verse to Genesis, because we read about “The beginning” in Genesis we take John 1:1 in the same context but on closer examination it appears John is speaking about Jesus in the context of a not so distant past in other words the beginning of the Gospel.

Genesis IS the beginning of the gospel.

[bodhitharta]

You see what I mean, instead of seeing a viewpoint you color it poetically. Genesis is not the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The only reason you say that is because you are looking at the bible in hindsight as one complete book. The bible is a bibliography i.e. a compilation of books. Jesus isn’t mentioned in the first compilation(Old testament) at all. It’s funny how to even talk about Jesus pre-New Testament one can only make inferences and conjecture.

Jesus was sent to people who did not understand or perceive who he was.

[Lightenup]

So 1-5 is an introduction for the gospel it is beautiful but it is for the sake of the Gospel and not a historical statement otherwise John would literally have been sent from before the beginning, right?

Wrong, the beginning written about in John 1:1 is the same beginning referred to in Gen 1.

Jesus isn’t mentioned in the first compilation(Old testament) at all. It’s funny how to even talk about Jesus pre-New Testament one can only make inferences and conjecture.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you here too. Jesus explains where He is spoken about to the men on the road to Emmaus. Clearly He is written about in the OT but it takes understanding to see it.

Luke 24
27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

You apparently don’t see where He is referred to in the OT because it is not black and white, it is something that has to be interpreted.

[Lightenup]

Bo,
Do you now see that Jesus is written about in the OT and therefore, the gospel message begins years before Jesus appears in the flesh?

[bodhitharta]

Does this – Luke 24
27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Refer in anyway to genesis as you placed Jesus ?

Still you would have to have heard about Jesus or be taught about Jesus as he is not actually taught or spoken of directly in the old testament I’m not saying those who have knowledge of Jesus now, cannot go back and say some of these things referred to Jesus I am just saying there is no direct talk of Jesus in the OT, You know of Moses and Elijah because of the OT and then again in the NT if you never read an NT you would know of Moses, Elijah, Noah, Jonah, Abraham…etc and then if you never read the OT you would know of these same people from the NT but Jesus you can only know from the NT Just like Muhammed can only be known from the Quran but Jesus can also be known from the Quran just not the OT

[Lightenup]

Hi Bo, I understand that Jesus isn’t mentioned by the name of Jesus in the OT but He is mentioned by His other names or identities. He is the seed of the woman in Genesis for example. Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

He is also called the Word of God (in Genesis, btw) and Jehovah of hosts (see Isa 8), and Son (that would be in Proverbs), and the Lord of lords (in Deuteronomy) and Messiah ( http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=messiah+ot )…all in the OT-just for starters.

Smile!! He loves you!

[bodhitharta]

You are only pointing out things you assign to Jesus not even in the NT do they say that Jesus is the seed in Genesis 3:15 or the Jehovah of Hosts in Isa 8 so I ask you, if the NT /the gospels don’t state these things how do you assert them?

[Lightenup]

@bodhitharta
you asked:

if the NT /the gospels don’t state these things how do you assert them?

Jesus came into flesh through the seed of a woman and He is the only one that has defeated the power of death and satan. Do you disagree with that?

Also, Peter writes in 1 Peter 2 that Jesus is the cornerstone, the stone of stumbling that is written of in scriptures, referring to the stone of stumbling that Isaiah writes about and calls “Jehovah of hosts”.

Take care!

[bodhitharta]

Jesus was not made in the flesh through  any  “seed” his birth was miraculous and Mary’s “egg” was fertilized buy the Power and Might of God, as far as death is concerned Elijah was taken up to heaven without dying: Enoch, Elijah, Jesus – have passed from earth to heaven without dying

[Lightenup]

@bodhitharta
Seed merely means offspring and indeed, Jesus was a woman’s offspring according to His flesh.

Regarding Elijah and Enoch, you are right, they were taken up to heaven without dying. What is your point about this? However, Jesus died, i.e. His flesh died but the person of Jesus that dwelt in that flesh continued and was reunited with His flesh body in its glorified state.

I read some extra-Biblical literature that said Enoch and Elijah were to return to earth to be the two witnesses that die and after three days, come back to life. I will find it for you.

Here is the part I am referring to:

Chapter 9 (25).

And setting out to paradise, He took hold of our forefather Adam by the hand, and delivered him, and all the just, to the archangel Michael. And as they were going into the door of paradise, there met them two old men, to whom the holy fathers said: Who are you, who have not seen death, and have not come down into Hades, but who dwell in paradise in your bodies and your souls? One of them answered, and said: I am Enoch, who was well-pleasing to God, and who was translated hither by Him; and this is Helias the Thesbite; and we are also to live until the end of the world; and then we are to be sent by God to withstand Antichrist, and to be slain by him, and after three days to rise again, and to be snatched up in clouds to meet the Lord.1951

That story starts here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.vii.xiv.i.html

I think that is fascinating. Helias, btw is Elijah.

May the LORD bless you today!!

[bodhitharta]

“Seed” can only refer to a males offspring. It is a gender specific statement.  Mary does not have a seed so Jesus was never the seed of Mary although indirectly he could be called the seed of Adam. Anyway knowing that you believe that Jesus is God and further God in a glorified flesh body. Don’t you know the scriptures state that “God is a Spirit” so if Jesus is on a glorified flesh body then how do you intend to keep believing that Jesus is God?

[Lightenup]

@bodhitharta

you said:

“Seed” can only refer to a males offspring. It is a gender specific statement. Mary does not have a seed so Jesus was never the seed of Mary although indirectly he could be called the seed of Adam.

This proves you are incorrect:
Gen 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

Did you see that Bo…HER SEED???? Can you admit that you are wrong here?

you also said:

Anyway knowing that you believe that Jesus is God and further God in a glorified flesh body. Don’t you know the scriptures state that “God is a Spirit” so if Jesus is on a glorified flesh body then how do you intend to keep believing that Jesus is God?

Jesus is both GOD and man. He was always God the Son, but not always God AND man. The Father was also always God but He was never man. The Son remains God AND man to this day (for your benefit, btw…so that you can get out of the prison of original sin).

[bodhitharta]

Yes, totally admit to how the word is used although I did say “her seed”  it does refer to the seed she obtained from Adam

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