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Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 19 2013,13:53) Hi Bo,
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are interdependent as the Almighty God. No part can or ever was or ever will be missing of the Almighty God.The Father needs the Son and the Holy Spirit to be the Almighty God, our Saviour.
Well, I guess we are finish here because your final analyses is that “God Needs” and that goes against Him being Sovereign.This also goes against the scriptures and words of Jesus.
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.NOTICE Jesus is calling GOD “LORD”
John 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.NOTICE Jesus is calling God “GOD” and that he came from “GOD”
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.NOTICE Jesus compares himself not to “GOD” but as equal in worship with thosewho believe using the term “my and Your” Father and God
and Finally NOTICE:
Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a treeAccording to you Jesus would have had to be the God of the forefathers and yet the disciples are saying that Jesus was not the God of the forefathers but raised up by that very same GOD.
So at this point it is clear that we cannot resolve this debate as you are not willing to at least admit the obvious points, if you could it would be great to go on with this debate but if not the thread should be locked.
Hi Bo,
You only see Jesus as the 'Shoot' and only speak of Him as the 'Shoot/offspring' of David/Jesse. You do not know Him as the Root of Jesse. That is why you are perplexed with what I say. As the Root of Jesse, He is part of the root 'system', which I believe is YHVH who is our God-YHVH who is one. YHVH is both God of gods and Lord of lords. The 'Roots' of Jesse, as I understand, would be both the God of gods and the Lord of lords…i.e. YHVH. One of the 'Roots' (the Lord of lords) became also the 'Shoot.'Jesus said in the last chapter of His revelation that He was BOTH…the Root and Shoot/offspring of David, not just the 'Shoot/offspring' as you speak of Him. He is BOTH.
How can the 'Root' continue through the stump as the 'Shoot' and become man while still being YHVH, the Son??? It is called the 'incarnation.' A miracle of supernatural proportion…a plan that was planned before creation. Before the foundation of the earth, it was the plan/hidden wisdom, for the Lord of lords to become flesh and not only have knowledge as the Root of the stump of Jesse, but also have experiential knowledge as to what it meant to be the 'Shoot' of the plant and relate to all the other 'shoots' and be able to die then live again. The 'Root' part of Him never died, just the 'Shoot' part of Him.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 19 2013,16:13) Hi Bo,
You only see Jesus as the 'Shoot' and only speak of Him as the 'Shoot/offspring' of David/Jesse. You do not know Him as the Root of Jesse. That is why you are perplexed with what I say. As the Root of Jesse, He is part of the root 'system', which I believe is YHVH who is our God-YHVH who is one. YHVH is both God of gods and Lord of lords. The 'Roots' of Jesse, as I understand, would be both the God of gods and the Lord of lords…i.e. YHVH. One of the 'Roots' (the Lord of lords) became also the 'Shoot.'Jesus said in the last chapter of His revelation that He was BOTH…the Root and Shoot/offspring of David, not just the 'Shoot/offspring' as you speak of Him. He is BOTH.
How can the 'Root' continue through the stump as the 'Shoot' and become man while still being YHVH, the Son??? It is called the 'incarnation.' A miracle of supernatural proportion…a plan that was planned before creation. Before the foundation of the earth, it was the plan/hidden wisdom, for the Lord of lords to become flesh and not only have knowledge as the Root of the stump of Jesse, but also have experiential knowledge as to what it meant to be the 'Shoot' of the plant and relate to all the other 'shoots' and be able to die then live again. The 'Root' part of Him never died, just the 'Shoot' part of Him.
If Jesus is the lord of lods why did he call His Father LORD?Bo,
When you capitalize all 4 letters in LORD, that generally refers to YHVH. I think that you mean 'Lord,' right?If so, then as the 'Shoot/offspring of David' He was speaking as a man who was made lower than even the angels, so naturally, the Father would be His Lord and God.
But in the NT, the titles 'Lord' and 'God' are used for both the Father and the Son. Sometimes the context designates one title for the Father and the other title for the Son. When the Father and the Son are mentioned together, the Father usually gets the 'God' title and Jesus gets the 'Lord' title. They are both God and Lord over all creation. The title 'Lord of lords' seems to be more specifically applied to the Son.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 21 2013,15:03) Bo,
When you capitalize all 4 letters in LORD, that generally refers to YHVH. I think that you mean 'Lord,' right?If so, then as the 'Shoot/offspring of David' He was speaking as a man who was made lower than even the angels, so naturally, the Father would be His Lord and God.
But in the NT, the titles 'Lord' and 'God' are used for both the Father and the Son. Sometimes the context designates one title for the Father and the other title for the Son. When the Father and the Son are mentioned together, the Father usually gets the 'God' title and Jesus gets the 'Lord' title. They are both God and Lord over all creation. The title 'Lord of lords' seems to be more specifically applied to the Son.
Your explanation doesn't fit because where is “Jesus” referred to as a God if there isany reference it would be of him in the flesh since that is when he was first called Jesus so in that same flesh he is calling his “God” “The Lord” and if Jesus has a lord then obviously he is not lord over his own lord, correct?Here are a few examples where the Son is called 'God.'
Heb 1
8But about the Son he says,“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
Acts 20:28
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.Romans 9:5
To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.Bo,
you asked:Quote if Jesus has a lord then obviously he is not lord over his own lord, correct? The 'Shoot' is not Lord over the 'Roots of Jesse' but the 'Root of Jesse' is Lord over the 'Shoot.' Jesus is both one of the 'Roots' and the 'Shoot.' That was what Jesus revealed about Himself as one of the last things that He said in the last book of the Bible.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 21 2013,15:39) Here are a few examples where the Son is called 'God.' Heb 1
8But about the Son he says,“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
Acts 20:28
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.Romans 9:5
To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
If you take those passages literally then consider these also:King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.and
Acts 28:5-6
New International Version (NIV)
5 But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects. 6 The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead; but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god.
Not to mention Heb 1 is a reference to a psalm in the Old Testament where it does not mention it is about the son at all
Psalm 45:1-3 is about a King in that present day
Romans 9:5 seems to actually say tht Jesus Christ is “God Blessed” Over all:
Romans 9:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Romans 9:5
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
5 whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen.
This can be backed up due to the fact that Paul says before 9:5
Romans 9:3
King James Version (KJV)
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
So it is clear that he was not saying that Christ was God but simply that Christ was blessed above all
Bo,
Do you really think that Moses or Paul were divine? If not, then why even mention them? On the other hand, Jesus is one that existed pre-flesh and in the beginning and through Him all things were made and through His sacrifice all men were given the opportunity to be saved and have eternal life with Him.Do you really believe that the Bible does not call Jesus, theos?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 22 2013,14:53) Bo,
Do you really think that Moses or Paul were divine? If not, then why even mention them? On the other hand, Jesus is one that existed pre-flesh and in the beginning and through Him all things were made and through His sacrifice all men were given the opportunity to be saved and have eternal life with Him.Do you really believe that the Bible does not call Jesus, theos?
These people were reported to be GODLY Jesus was also GODLY:1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Manifest does not mean materialized it means evidenced and yes Moses and Paul also made evident the power of God in the flesh.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 24 2013,00:56) Bo,
Please answer this question:Do you really believe that the Bible does not call Jesus, theos?
It wouldn't matter because the same word was used for Paul, right?Whether it matters or not, do you believe Jesus is called 'theos' in the Bible?
Also, where is Paul called 'theos' and who is it that is calling him that?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 24 2013,13:32) Whether it matters or not, do you believe Jesus is called 'theos' in the Bible? Also, where is Paul called 'theos' and who is it that is calling him that?
You see, you will always chang your view to be right. The Bible says “Ye are all Gods, Ye are all th children of the most high” and you will say the bible doesn't mean that unless it is talking about Jesus, right?Bo, we are commanded to love Jehovah as our only God. So, if any being is called god and is not Jehovah, we are not to make them a god of us. We are not to bow down to them, to serve them, to make covenants with them, etc. The million dollar question is whether Jesus is Jehovah or part of the Jehovah's deity? If so, He needs to be worshiped and loved with our whole heart and mind and when we love Him we will love the Father also with our whole heart and mind and cling to the Holy Spirit within us.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 27 2013,17:38) Bo, we are commanded to love Jehovah as our only God. So, if any being is called god and is not Jehovah, we are not to make them a god of us. We are not to bow down to them, to serve them, to make covenants with them, etc. The million dollar question is whether Jesus is Jehovah or part of the Jehovah's deity? If so, He needs to be worshiped and loved with our whole heart and mind and when we love Him we will love the Father also with our whole heart and mind and cling to the Holy Spirit within us.
You mean serve 2 masters?“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other.”
Jesus is never called Jehovah besides that Jesus said WORSHIP the FATHER. Jesus said he was the DOOR not the destination. Who is your Master is it Jesus or th God of Jesus?
Bo,
The Father and Son…two persons giving one direction via their Holy Spirit. Your verse about serving two masters is about two persons each giving different directions. The Son speaks what He hears the Father saying, and He does what He sees the Father doing. They give only one directive, not each giving opposing directives.Quote Jesus is never called Jehovah
Jesus IS identified as Jehovah many times.Quote Jesus said WORSHIP the FATHER.
And you should worship the Father…also the Son. The disciples worshiped both, and all creatures in heaven and on earth and under the earth will worship the Father and the Son also.Quote Jesus said he was the DOOR not the destination.
Apart from His coming in the flesh and dying then rising again, He could not be that door. Our destination is to have fellowship with the Father and the Son in one Spirit.Quote Who is your Master is it Jesus or the God of Jesus? Yes.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 29 2013,15:34) Bo,
The Father and Son…two persons giving one direction via their Holy Spirit. Your verse about serving two masters is about two persons each giving different directions. The Son speaks what He hears the Father saying, and He does what He sees the Father doing. They give only one directive, not each giving opposing directives.Quote Jesus is never called Jehovah
Jesus IS identified as Jehovah many times.Quote Jesus said WORSHIP the FATHER.
And you should worship the Father…also the Son. The disciples worshiped both, and all creatures in heaven and on earth and under the earth will worship the Father and the Son also.Quote Jesus said he was the DOOR not the destination.
Apart from His coming in the flesh and dying then rising again, He could not be that door. Our destination is to have fellowship with the Father and the Son in one Spirit.Quote Who is your Master is it Jesus or the God of Jesus? Yes.
Who is THE LORD GOD?
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