- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (jb2u @ May 25 2013,09:45) Quote (Lightenup @ May 23 2013,18:51) Quote So tell me….was Jesus a man while on Earth?? Jesus was God, in the beginning by nature according to the Spirit (and scripture) and came to be also man according to the flesh after Mary conceived Him. He was both the Root and the Shoot while on earth. Not the way you think about roots though.
Btw, jb, when asked who are your roots, do you name your ancestors or your descendants?
Well lets not go by the way WE think about “roots” since it is written in GREEK….Romans 15:12
And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.Revelation 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.The word root is “rhiza”
According to Strong's Concordance it means….
a root, shoot, source; that which comes from the root, a descendent.I believe it is the “shoots” that I was talking about before!! And YES, by definition…I could call my descendants….my “rhiza.” I wouldn't call them “my roots” because obviously it would confuse those that speak English. That being said, these verses are in Greek.
Again, we can not just take the translations as they are if we see an apparent contradiction!! I have said it over and over. I believe that is why GOD has told us…SEEK and ye shall find!!
Psalm 9:10
And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, Lord, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.Psalm 14:2
The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.Psalm 69:32
The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.Psalm 119:2
Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.Proverbs 8:17
I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:I could go on and on….Obviously SEEKING GOD is important!!
jb,
The 'root of Jesse' is talking about Isaiah 11 where FROM the ROOTS of Jesse comes a branch. Obviously the two terms are not the same here.Isaiah 11 1A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2013,13:57) jb,
This is a well written document that expresses what I believe God has been teaching me when I went to Him, much like you, with a willingness to challenge the trinity doctrine.
The first problem that I see with this article is that it goes off of the targums. The targums are Aramaic translations and paraphrasing of the Hebraic text.If, in order to find evidence to support our belief, we must leave the actual scripture and go to another body of work, it leads me to believe that it must not be true!! We should be able to find all evidence for what God wants us to know in HIS WORD..the BIBLE.
Let's put it this way. Let's say I translate the Bible…JB's version. And, in this version, where ever GOD is written, I instead write, “the GOD, for GOD is not 2in1 or 3in1, but 1in1.” Or, if instead of the Shema, I write, “Hear, O' Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord, for Jesus is not God. He is God's Son.”
I am willing to bet that you would disregard this version. I would, too, by the way!! But my point is, that is all the targums are, translations with paraphrasing. However, because it supports your beliefs, you do not question it. Let us not forget that even in Jesus' day, there were Jews that did not believe in the correct thing. Right? So, just because there is an “old document” does not mean that those Jews were correct in their interpretation of the original Hebraic INSPIRED WORD of GOD text!!! Right?
Second, I already explained the Lord raining down fire from the Lord in the sky verse.
Third, Scripture clearly states that God has only talked to us in the last days by His Son….NOT in the OT!!!
Fourth, although things are not “personified” in the targums, things WERE personified in the original inspired word of GOD…the original Hebraic text!!
Fifth, I believe in what the Bible actually says, not man's interpretation. Taking scripture for what it actually says, one can only conclude that God is ONE and Jesus is His Son and NOT God Himself.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2013,05:20) jb,
The 'root of Jesse' is talking about Isaiah 11 where FROM the ROOTS of Jesse comes a branch. Obviously the two terms are not the same here.Isaiah 11 1A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
Even so, the meaning of the word does not change. The shoot still came FROM Jesse and, yes, that shoot will have roots that ultimately can be called the roots of Jesse.Some more things for you to consider….
If Jesus is “the way” and “the door” to God, Can He also be God?
Jesus made it clear that He was the WAY to God and the DOOR to get to GOD; because of this, He can not BE God!!! Both of these concepts are biblical!!! To believe that He is God, too, however would not be Biblical.I know that Jesus is the way to God and the door that I must go through in order to get to the Kingdom of God, so says the Bible!!
Mark 12:14
And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.John 10:7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.Revelation 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.Quote (jb2u @ May 29 2013,17:57) Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2013,13:57) jb,
This is a well written document that expresses what I believe God has been teaching me when I went to Him, much like you, with a willingness to challenge the trinity doctrine.
The first problem that I see with this article is that it goes off of the targums. The targums are Aramaic translations and paraphrasing of the Hebraic text.If, in order to find evidence to support our belief, we must leave the actual scripture and go to another body of work, it leads me to believe that it must not be true!! We should be able to find all evidence for what God wants us to know in HIS WORD..the BIBLE.
Let's put it this way. Let's say I translate the Bible…JB's version. And, in this version, where ever GOD is written, I instead write, “the GOD, for GOD is not 2in1 or 3in1, but 1in1.” Or, if instead of the Shema, I write, “Hear, O' Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord, for Jesus is not God. He is God's Son.”
I am willing to bet that you would disregard this version. I would, too, by the way!! But my point is, that is all the targums are, translations with paraphrasing. However, because it supports your beliefs, you do not question it. Let us not forget that even in Jesus' day, there were Jews that did not believe in the correct thing. Right? So, just because there is an “old document” does not mean that those Jews were correct in their interpretation of the original Hebraic INSPIRED WORD of GOD text!!! Right?
Second, I already explained the Lord raining down fire from the Lord in the sky verse.
Third, Scripture clearly states that God has only talked to us in the last days by His Son….NOT in the OT!!!
Fourth, although things are not “personified” in the targums, things WERE personified in the original inspired word of GOD…the original Hebraic text!!
Fifth, I believe in what the Bible actually says, not man's interpretation. Taking scripture for what it actually says, one can only conclude that God is ONE and Jesus is His Son and NOT God Himself.
jb,
Thanks again for your time.
you said:Quote The first problem that I see with this article is that it goes off of the targums. The targums are Aramaic translations and paraphrasing of the Hebraic text. The problem that I see with your understanding is that you don't consider the understanding of the times. For instance, the targums clearly give us a sense of what the' Word' in John 1:1 refers to. Without knowing what the Jews already understood the Word to be, the Word doesn't make as much sense.
For instance; if I said “9/11 was a day to go down in history,” you will probably recall the destruction of the Twin Towers in NY City. However, someone from North Korea that never hears radio or television or is allowed to really know about the events in the world might wonder what I was talking about. Knowing the culture and history of the times and past history will help you understand your Bible better. So, I don't take the Targums as inerrant but I do think they are very valuable to understand how the Jews understood the OT.
So, your first problem with the article is not a problem but a blessing towards understanding, as I see it.
Quote Second, I already explained the Lord raining down fire from the Lord in the sky verse.
I disagree with your opinion.Quote Third, Scripture clearly states that God has only talked to us in the last days by His Son….NOT in the OT!!! Not true. God didn't say that He didn't talk to the Prophets through the Son. He just said that He used prophets to give His word in diverse ways and now doesn't use the prophets but uses His Son to give His words.
Quote Fourth, although things are not “personified” in the targums, things WERE personified in the original inspired word of GOD…the original Hebraic text!! Where things are personified is often a matter of opinion and subject to the reader's bias.
Quote Fifth, I believe in what the Bible actually says, not man's interpretation. Taking scripture for what it actually says, one can only conclude that God is ONE and Jesus is His Son and NOT God Himself. Jesus was the theos of John 1:1c who was with the theos of John 1:1b in the beginning. You believe what the Bible actually says??
Quote (jb2u @ May 29 2013,17:59) Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2013,05:20) jb,
The 'root of Jesse' is talking about Isaiah 11 where FROM the ROOTS of Jesse comes a branch. Obviously the two terms are not the same here.Isaiah 11 1A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
Even so, the meaning of the word does not change. The shoot still came FROM Jesse and, yes, that shoot will have roots that ultimately can be called the roots of Jesse.
How many tree trunks in a family tree? You seem to imply there are as many tree trunks as there are descendants. This is not anyone's opinion but yours.Quote
If Jesus is “the way” and “the door” to God, Can He also be God?Jesus is the God of John 1:1c.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 31 2013,06:31) you said: Quote The first problem that I see with this article is that it goes off of the targums. The targums are Aramaic translations and paraphrasing of the Hebraic text. The problem that I see with your understanding is that you don't consider the understanding of the times. For instance, the targums clearly give us a sense of what the' Word' in John 1:1 refers to. Without knowing what the Jews already understood the Word to be, the Word doesn't make as much sense.
For instance; if I said “9/11 was a day to go down in history,” you will probably recall the destruction of the Twin Towers in NY City. However, someone from North Korea that never hears radio or television or is allowed to really know about the events in the world might wonder what I was talking about. Knowing the culture and history of the times and past history will help you understand your Bible better. So, I don't take the Targums as inerrant but I do think they are very valuable to understand how the Jews understood the OT.
So, your first problem with the article is not a problem but a blessing towards understanding, as I see it.
Quote Second, I already explained the Lord raining down fire from the Lord in the sky verse.
I disagree with your opinion.Quote Third, Scripture clearly states that God has only talked to us in the last days by His Son….NOT in the OT!!! Not true. God didn't say that He didn't talk to the Prophets through the Son. He just said that He used prophets to give His word in diverse ways and now doesn't use the prophets but uses His Son to give His words.
Quote Fourth, although things are not “personified” in the targums, things WERE personified in the original inspired word of GOD…the original Hebraic text!! Where things are personified is often a matter of opinion and subject to the reader's bias.
Quote Fifth, I believe in what the Bible actually says, not man's interpretation. Taking scripture for what it actually says, one can only conclude that God is ONE and Jesus is His Son and NOT God Himself. Jesus was the theos of John 1:1c who was with the theos of John 1:1b in the beginning. You believe what the Bible actually says??
1) It is true that you have to understand the meaning/beliefs/culture of the Jews. That being said, this does not mean that ALL Jews had the correct meaning.The Jews believe the word of God to be God's wisdom, not His Son. The Jews understood personification. They used it, and since God gave them the Hebrew language…I am sure He uses it, too. The TARGUMS do give a sense of what the word is in John; however, John gives us an even clearer understanding!!! In John, he clearly states that the word (not Word) was in the beginning, was with God, and was God. What he did not say…was that Jesus was in the beginning, was with God, and was GOD. He clearly states that the word BECAME flesh!!! We also learn that Jesus GREW in His Wisdom, and that GOD GAVE His wisdom to Jesus. This, of course, makes John make perfect sense. We lose understanding of John 1:1 when we try to make the word that was in the beginning to be actually Jesus!! I ask, HOW can Jesus BE wisdom and have to have God GIVE Him wisdom? Why would wisdom, Jesus, have to GROW in wisdom? This makes NO sense!!! The Jews understood that God's word is His wisdom. God put His wisdom in Jesus, so says the scripture. John then captured this moment in John chapter one.
As far as your comparison to 9/11, if I wrote a book that stated that 9/11 was a day to go down in history because America brought the twin towers down themselves then the North Koreans would probably believe that. Right? If I said that 9/11 was a day to go down in history because the stock market crashed, they would probably believe that. The point is…you are going on the BELIEF that the targums are correct in their interpretations!! 9/11 will go down in history, but it is because we were attacked by terrorist!! Now, I am sure there are plenty of countries that will NOT get that message!! They will learn about 9/11, but it will be from the incorrect view that we deserved it!!! I know you will agree with me on that, right?? And, THAT is how I see the targums. The interpreters had a “hard time” just saying “God did” or “God said”; and so, they added “the word of God said” or “the glory of God did.” Let's not confuse this with what scripture ACTUALLY says!!! The same way that Jews do not want to pronounce YHVH, the way we see “GOD” or “LORD” in our version of the Bible. This does not mean that the original is written, “GOD.” The original reads, “YHVH.” This is an important concept to understand.
2) I know that you do not accept my explanation. It goes against your belief; whereas, it explains mine. Fair enough.
3) It is true. The prophets were still men. God did state that it was only in these last days that He spoke to us through His Son.
Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;4) One can say that it is subject to the reader's bias, but…come on….IS Jesus bread? Do we literally have to EAT His flesh….is death really a person that is thrown in the fire in order to put an end to death? Is it really a woman on a beast in revelations? Is there really a 7 headed beast in revelations? Is the “Wisdom” that is referred to as “SHE” in psalms really Jesus?? I think it is more accurate to say…one CAN pick and choose what they WANT to SAY is personification in order to continue believing what they want to believe!!!
5) Again, it does NOT say that Jesus is the “theos” in John 1:1. It clearly says that the “word” is theos. It is your interpretation that Jesus is the word. The BIBLE actually says that the word BECAME flesh, Jesus. This belief harmonizes the scripture. Whereas, saying Jesus is the word that was in the beginning and is God, causes a HUGE contradiction in the Bible. No other gospel ever states this concept!!! People always want to point to this ambiguous wording in John while ignoring the other THREE gospels. Why is this?? Why would John proclaim Jesus to be God in John 1:1 and then spend the rest of his gospel never readdressing this revelation? Why does his gospel go on to “give all the glory” back to the one true GOD and repeatedly state that Jesus is the Son of God..NOT God Himself??? Why? Why? Why? It is important!!! People use one verse in Joh
n that doesn't even say that Jesus was God to say that it says….Jesus is God. That does not scare you??? What do we really get from John's gospel…..John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.Now I would say that these verses are NOT ambiguous. They are NOT left open to interpretation. GOD is telling us through John's gospel that there is ONE GOD and Jesus' Father is the ONE TRUE GOD!!!
Quote (Lightenup @ May 31 2013,06:34) Quote (jb2u @ May 29 2013,17:59) Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2013,05:20) jb,
The 'root of Jesse' is talking about Isaiah 11 where FROM the ROOTS of Jesse comes a branch. Obviously the two terms are not the same here.Isaiah 11 1A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
Even so, the meaning of the word does not change. The shoot still came FROM Jesse and, yes, that shoot will have roots that ultimately can be called the roots of Jesse.
How many tree trunks in a family tree? You seem to imply there are as many tree trunks as there are descendants. This is not anyone's opinion but yours.
A family tree really does not have any roots as it is just an illustration, but the point is….I have proven that the meaning of this word “root” does also mean “that which comes from the root, a descendant.”Furthermore, I have also explained how Jesus can be the root of Jesse, for without Jesus, there would have been NO Jesse or Moses or Adam or you or me!!!
Again, it is a FACT, that stems drop off of trees, become shoots that have roots. These roots are “roots of the original tree.” I am not playing word games. I am only trying to harmonize the scripture. If Jesus is God, then there are MANY contradictions in the Bible…MANY!!!
But, I ask, give me your evidence, IN SCRIPTURE (not targums, Book of Enoch, Book of trinitarianisms, etc), where Jesus is God!! I have given you evidence from scripture that states there is only one God and that Jesus states that one true God is His Father. You deny this, even though it is scripture, and look to vague verses that you need to interpret!! Why is this? Why can you not accept the word of God for what it actually says??
jb,
you said:Quote
The Jews believe the word of God to be God's wisdom, not His Son.Can you provide your source for your statement that the Jews believe the word of God to be God's wisdom? From the source that I have, the Jews considered that there were two powers in Heaven. A Jew (non-believing) wrote a book about that found here:
http://www.amazon.com/Two-Pow….+heaven
This is what it said about the book:
In his now classic Two Powers in Heaven, Alan Segal examines rabbinic evidence about early manifestations of the “two powers” heresy within Judaism. Segal sheds light upon the development of and relationships among early Christianity, Gnosticism, and Merkabah mysticism and demonstrates that belief in the “two powers in heaven” was widespread by the first century, and may have been a catalyst for the Jewish rejection of early Christianity. An important addition to New Testament and Gnostic scholarship by this much revered scholar, Segal's Two Powers in Heaven is made available once again for a new generation.jb,
you said:Quote The TARGUMS do give a sense of what the word is in John;
Thank you!Quote however, John gives us an even clearer understanding!!! In John, he clearly states that the word (not Word) was in the beginning, was with God, and was God. What he did not say…was that Jesus was in the beginning, was with God, and was GOD. He clearly states that the word BECAME flesh!!! The Word that was God became Flesh. According to your doctrine, The Word that was God wasn't God at all but became flesh and then became God with the other God. Isn't that what you are saying, jb?
I am saying this:
The Word that was God became Flesh = The Root that was God became Flesh-the Shoot.Quote We also learn that Jesus GREW in His Wisdom, and that GOD GAVE His wisdom to Jesus. This, of course, makes John make perfect sense. We lose understanding of John 1:1 when we try to make the word that was in the beginning to be actually Jesus!! I ask, HOW can Jesus BE wisdom and have to have God GIVE Him wisdom? Why would wisdom, Jesus, have to GROW in wisdom? This makes NO sense!!! The Jews understood that God's word is His wisdom. God put His wisdom in Jesus, so says the scripture. John then captured this moment in John chapter one. Jesus grew in wisdom, this is true. When the Word became flesh, the Word who existed in the form of God had emptied Himself to become flesh, taking the form of man and becoming a bond-servant. What He emptied Himself of specifically, we aren't told. I would guess that He emptied Himself of whatever He needed to, in order to be a baby human with out memories of a past. We have evidence in the natural realm where people suffer from amnesia and forget who they are but eventually the memories slowly come back. I do not know why it would be impossible for the Word to give His memory to the care of His Father so that He truly does not remember that He had a past until the Father released His memories back to Him little by little. That is just a scenario because you asked how this could be that He grew in wisdom even though He already had great wisdom.
Quote The Jews understood that God's word is His wisdom. God put His wisdom in Jesus, so says the scripture. John then captured this moment in John chapter one.
From what I understand, the Jews believe this wisdom to be the torah nowadays. I believe the 'wisdom' in Prov.8:22 has to do with the plan to bring out that which was eternally within God to create a world that one day may have to be redeemed. Then Prov 8 goes on to beget that eternal life that was within God the Father as the beginning to the fulfillment of the plan.Quote The point is…you are going on the BELIEF that the targums are correct in their interpretations!!
I believe the Targums show that the Jews of the OT believed that the 'appearances of Jehovah' were related in some way to the unseen Jehovah but not actually the unseen Jehovah. When the OT prophets saw or heard that which identified Himself as Jehovah, the Jews equated that appearance with the Word of Jehovah. I believe that scripture itself says that the Word of Jehovah is Jehovah also, hence, the two powers of Heaven.Quote 3) It is true. The prophets were still men. God did state that it was only in these last days that He spoke to us through His Son.
Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;This passage is talking about how God spoke to the Fathers, not how He spoke to the prophets. I believe He spoke to the prophets through the Word. In these 'last days' He bypasses the prophets and speaks more directly to the people through that same Word, the eternal life that was with the Father in the beginning, which for us became flesh.
This is all I have time for right now. Nice chatting with you!
The first problem is that we KNOW that not all of the Jews believed the correct thing, right? So, if the Targums were written by those Jews that believed the wrong thing, the Targums are then wrong. Wouldn't you agree? This means that you are only assuming that the Targums are correct!! I think this is why we should go by the Bible only. Even the translated Bible has been messed with, but with some seeking, the truth can still be found.
NO…I do not believe that “another God was created.” The word that was in the beginning was NOT a person at all. The word that John speaks of is GOD's wisdom. God's wisdom was with Him in the beginning and was God…..Just like my wisdom is me and your wisdom is you. God clearly shows that He PUT His wisdom inside of Jesus; thus, the word (wisdom) BECAME flesh. It really is that simple!! Why didn't John write…In the beginning was the Son…? The reason is because “in the beginning” wasn't the Son…it was the word!
The meaning of “He emptied Himself” is also simple.
You see, Jesus during His ministry was full of GOD. Jesus spoke not His words, but the words that God commanded Him to say. Jesus did not do what He wanted, but rather He did God's will. Now, in order for Jesus to do all of this…He must have, first, EMPTIED Himself. In the same way, if we are to follow Christ, as we should, we too must first EMPTY ourselves of our own WANTS, DESIRES, NEEDS. We, too, must become servants, as did Christ, even to the death!! Please, pray about this first, reread the scripture, then respond!Now, I have a question.
PLEASE pay close attention to this scripture…
It comes from John's Gospel.
In it…who is God according to Jesus?
In it…who are the true worshipers according to Jesus?John 4:19-26
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
So, Jesus says that “the Father” is God!! Notice that He, Jesus, also says that the “true worshipers shall worship the Father.” Jesus ends this by stating that He is the Christ and it is the truth. Do you accept this?
Quote The first problem is that we KNOW that not all of the Jews believed the correct thing, right? So, if the Targums were written by those Jews that believed the wrong thing, the Targums are then wrong. Wouldn't you agree? This means that you are only assuming that the Targums are correct!! Once again, I am not stating that the Targums are inerrant. The Targums definitely state some of the Jews understanding of the OT. So when Jesus speaks about what the Jews knew and that 'the Jews worship what they know,' we can see from the Targums that they worshiped the 'Word of Jehovah' as Jehovah.
Quote I think this is why we should go by the Bible only. Even the translated Bible has been messed with, but with some seeking, the truth can still be found. There really is no problem finding the divinity of Christ in the Bible only. Yet you have trouble with this too. See here for example:
Quote
Isaiah 54:5
“For your husband is your Maker, Whose name is the LORD of hosts; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, Who is called the God of all the earth.Mark 12:35 While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christ is the son of David? 36David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:
“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’i
37 David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
Luke 1:11 And an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing to the right of the altar of incense. 12Zacharias was troubled when he saw the angel, and fear gripped him. 13But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14“You will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15“For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb. 16“And he will turn many of the sons of Israel back to the Lord their God . 17“It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared forthe Lord .”
The “Lord their God” here is the same one that John goes before as a forerunner…i.e. Jesus.
“For he will be great in the sight of the Lord;
Jesus speaking:
Matt 11:11 I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “ I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.John 20:26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
Acts 10:34
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. 36“The word which He sent to the sons of Israel,preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all) —37you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 38“You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39“We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. 40“God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, 41not to all the people, but to ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42“And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.1 Corinthians 1:2 NAS
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:1 Cor 2:6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.Philippians 2:6 (New American Standard Bible)
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,2 Thessalonians 1:12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.
If you look at the Greek, you will see that all the verbs that are in these two verses are written in the singular form, yet there are two subjects which would normally require the verbs to be written in plural form. This suggests a compound unity of two persons, acting as one person
Tit 2:13, 14
…while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for us, “that he (Jesus)
might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works”.Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:Jude 1:4
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.Rev 17:14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”
Rev 19:16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
Deut 10:17 “For the LORD (Jehovah) your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe. the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.
Quote So, Jesus says that “the Father” is God!! Notice that He, Jesus, also says that the “true worshipers shall worship the Father.” Jesus ends this by stating that He is the Christ and it is the truth. Do you accept this? Yes, the Father is God. And Jesus is the God with God the Father in the beginning. Worshiping the Father in spirit and in truth would mean that you worship He who is known as the Word of God also as Yahveh, like the Targums show that the Jews did.
Quote NO…I do not believe that “another God was created.” The word that was in the beginning was NOT a person at all. I agree, another God was not created. I disagree that the word that was in the beginning was not a person. Revelations shows us that it is:
Rev 19:13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.
Is the 'He' in that verse a person? Yes or No
Quote Once again, I am not stating that the Targums are inerrant. The Targums definitely state some of the Jews understanding of the OT. So when Jesus speaks about what the Jews knew and that 'the Jews worship what they know,' we can see from the Targums that they worshiped the 'Word of Jehovah' as Jehovah.
There are 2 problems with this statement…
1) You claim that you know that the Targums are not inerrant, but then claim that the Targums are correct about the meaning of the “word of God.” If the Targums are not inerrant, as you claim to know, then how do you know that what they believed about the “word of God” is correct?2) You assume that the Jews that wrote/believed in the Targums were the Jews that knew/believed in the right thing. We know that there were various groups of Jews that believed in the wrong thing. How do we know that one of these groups did not write the Targums?
Quote There really is no problem finding the divinity of Christ in the Bible only. Yet you have trouble with this too. See here for example: Let's see….
Quote Isaiah 54:5
“For your husband is your Maker, Whose name is the LORD of hosts; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, Who is called the God of all the earth.Please, please, please….pay close attention! This is why I say taking a verse out of context is DANGEROUS! Who is this verse about? Who is the Maker? Who is the God of all the Earth? It is God (the Father) not Jesus. Look at Isaiah 53:11
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many: for he shall bear their iniquities.Do you see? YHVH calls Jesus “my servant.” This is powerful! You have to see it Lightenup! So, now, in context, we know that the verse that you refer to is NOT calling Jesus God. It is calling God “the Maker and God of all the Earth.” Why? Because the Jews thought of God as “their God”. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Quote Mark 12:35 While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christ is the son of David? 36David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’i
37 David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”This one I already explained to you. God has MADE Jesus our Lord; therefore, Jesus is the son of David and David's Lord. Jesus was BORN in the line of David, as promised, and, at His death, He has become the Lord of lords and King of kings!
Quote John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. Again, it does NOT say..”in the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was God.” Right? Or do you think that's what it says? In my Bible it says “word” NOT “Son” or “Jesus.”
Quote Luke 1:11 And an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing to the right of the altar of incense. 12Zacharias was troubled when he saw the angel, and fear gripped him. 13But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14“You will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15“For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb. 16“And he will turn many of the sons of Israel back to the Lord their God . 17“It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared forthe Lord .” The “Lord their God” here is the same one that John goes before as a forerunner…i.e. Jesus.
Incorrect!! The “Lord their God” is YHVH, not Jesus. It does not say Jesus is the Lord their God. This is only your interpretation.
Quote John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.Again, this is only in YOUR version of the Bible. I already explained that this manuscript only came from one area. All other manuscripts from all over do not say “only begotten God.” I would question this verse if I were you! NOWHERE else in the Bible is this phrase used! Why do you think that is? Why was this version only found in one area while ALL the other areas' manuscripts do not say “only begotten God”?
Quote John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “ I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.Do you really think this is because Jesus is God? You MUST believe in Jesus because GOD SAID SO!! It is NOT enough to just believe in GOD. Jesus is the sacrifice for OUR sins; therefore, GOD has EXALTED Jesus to such great honor as we MUST believe in HIM in order to receive the benefits of HIS sacrifice!! It really is that simple!!
Quote Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
This is actually another ambiguous verse. Some scholars say Thomas is “seeing” for the first time that Jesus IS the Messiah and therefore says..”My Lord” to Jesus and “My God” to YHVH. Now, I know you will reject that, but it is one explanation. Notice that Thomas does NOT say “my Lord and God”, instead he says “MY Lord and MY God”. This would seem to imply that he is talking about TWO different people. Also, some scholars say that Thomas might be referring back to when Jesus said if you've seen me, you've seen the Father. This, too, would explain why Thomas would say such a thing. He is FINALLY acknowledging Jesus as the Son of God that reflects GOD.Quote Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. Again, some problems, 1) there are many early manuscripts that say “church of the Lord.” 2) There are many versions that say “which he bought with the blood of his own Son.” 3) It would make since, seeing how God does not have blood, right? 4) Again, ambiguous verse that I would NOT make my argument with!
What DOES Paul say in Acts.. How about Acts 20:21
Testifying both to the Jews and also to the Greeks, repentance toward GOD and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.SO, Paul taught to REPENT to GOD and BELIEVE IN Jesus.
God is…well…GOD and Jesus is…Lord!! That is pretty clear to me!!Quote Acts 10:34
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. 36“The word which He sent to the sons of Israel,preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all) —Your KILLING me!! Jesus IS Lord of all. He is just NOT God. You are making my point for me. Again, Jesus IS Lord of lords and King of kings! Notice that it does not say “GOD.” Notice that you did NOT continue the chapter that states in verse 38 that God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost or that God was WITH Him, NOT God WAS HIM but God was WITH him or that GOD ORDAINED Jesus or that God RAISED Jesus or that God MADE Jesus judge of the quick and the dead! No, you left ALL of that out. WHY?
Quote Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
Again, this is a translation error. There are NO commas in Greek. The meaning, by many scholars, is stated to be God who is over all be blessed to the ages or God being over all be blessed to the ages. This, however, does not prove that Jesus is GOD. Furthermore, Paul declares in Romans 1 that “concerning his SON Jesus Christ our Lord.” This would mean that Jesus is NOT God, but rather God's SON. So we have to believe that Paul would not turn around and contradict himself in Chapter 9 by calling Jesus GOD. Right? Seriously, right?You go on to quote a bunch of verses calling Jesus by Lord. I have already showed that Jesus is Lord. I never denied that. I only reject the notion that Jesus is GOD.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 11 2013,11:15) Yes, the Father is God. And Jesus is the God with God the Father in the beginning. Worshiping the Father in spirit and in truth would mean that you worship He who is known as the Word of God also as Yahveh, like the Targums show that the Jews did.
Again, this is ONLY true if the Jews that wrote/believed in the targums are the Jews that believe in the right thing!!The Pharisees did not believe in the correct thing. The Sadducees did not believe in the right thing.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 11 2013,11:20) I agree, another God was not created. I disagree that the word that was in the beginning was not a person. Revelations shows us that it is: Rev 19:13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.
Is the 'He' in that verse a person? Yes or No
YES…We KNOW that the word BECAME Jesus.The Bible clearly teaches this.
I have a question for you..PLEASE ANSWER..
IF the “word of God” is always Jesus, then how do you explain Luke 3:2
Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.So, first “the word of God” came to John. He began preaching. He baptized people. THEN, Jesus came to him to be baptized.
How can “the word of God” come to John when Jesus is already on the Earth and it was not Jesus that came to John at that time?
Two more questions, if you do not mind.
WHY would Jesus need the Holy Spirit of God if HE was God?
This just would not make sense!Why would the “grace of God” be “UPON” Jesus (Luke 2:40) if Jesus IS God? Again, this makes NO SENSE if Jesus IS God!
Hi jb2u,
Quote IF the “word of God” is always Jesus, then how do you explain Luke 3:2 I didn't say that the 'word of God' always refers to the Son who became flesh but sometimes it does. In John 1:1, I and the vast majority of Bible students and commentators agree that the Word here is the Son of God. It is kinda like the word kyrios, it doesn't ALWAYS refer to YHVH but sometimes it does. The Spirit can give understanding to the scripture as to these matters.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
