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@GeneBalthrop
you said:I AM STILL RIGHT ABOUT THE REST OF WHAT I SAID, I EXPRESSED THAT WAY BECAUSE I WAS,THINK YOU WERE STILL TRYING TO MAKE BEGOTTEN MEAN A ON GOING PROCESS, INSTEAD OF A PAST EXPRESSION OF SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED BEFORE.
I have NEVER suggested that ‘begotten’ means an on-going process…never. I really wonder about your reading comprehension, Gene. Maybe you can show me why you think that I was “trying to make begotten mean an on-going process.”
…it is not saying, JESUS is the first be-getting from the dead, now does it?
I never said it did.
you said:BEGOTTEN FROM THE DEAD, IS A PAST EXPRESSION, AN IT IS SIMPLY TALKING OF AN EXISTING PERSON WHO HAS DIED, YOU TRYING TO MAKE THAT MEAN A PERSON ALREADY PREEXISTED WHO CAME INTO “EXISTENCE” AT HIS BERTH IS TRYING TO MAKE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SUBJECT MATTERS MEAN THE SAME THING.
IT IS SIMPLY TALKING OF AN EXISTING PERSON WHO HAS DIED
Ok, good we are getting somewhere…The Son existed then was begotten, then all things were created through Him, then much later the Son was sent to miraculously become flesh and was begotten from Mary, then the Son walked, taught, and did miracles while explaining the Heavenly Father, then the Son was crucified, then the Son died, then the Son was begotten from the dead, then the Son went to be at the right hand of God the Father and reigns for ever and ever.
He is the First-begotten over all creation and all creation came through Him, therefore, He was begotten before all creation was brought into existence. Col 1:15+
Lu…..NO, the subject matter there, about the son being begotten from the state of the dead, is not about the son prexisting as a living being before, your mixing subject matters, it was about him comming forth from a dead state to a live one, its not about him being begotten into a different being, the subject matter was the son was then existing as a dead man, and “then” was begotten “from” the state of the dead.
Your using the word begotten from one thing to represent a begotten from a completely different thing. Your trying to say the son preexisted as a sentinal being in one state of existence and then later was begotten, to another state of existence, that is an assumption on your part, you have never proved yet he did preexist his berth on tbis earth.
So let stop right there, your burden is to show scriptural proof of him being a prexistent being, before makeing your claim of him being “begotten” from that state of existence to a human state of existence. Showing Jesus was begotten into existence as a human being is true, and him after death being begotten from death is also true, but you have not produced any SCRIPTURIAL evidence he was alive before he was begotten as a human being.
You need to consertrate on him being alive before his berth on this earth that is the subject here right?
Trying to use one example of him being begotten as a human which is the same as all humans, and then later from the dead are two seperate, “specific” events. But you have no bibical proof of any other begetting process in his life. How does that seperate JESUS’ BEGETTLE PROCESS FROM THE REST OF HUMANITY?
YOU HAVE APSOLUTELY NO GROUNDS FOR A PREXISTENCE JESUS AS A SENTENIAL BEING BEFORE HIS BERTH ON THIS EARTH FROM THOSE SCRIPTURES. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ……………….gene
@GeneBalthrop
you said:Your using the word begotten from one thing to represent a begotten from a completely different thing. Your trying to say the son preexisted as a sentinal being in one state of existence and then later was begotten, to another state of existence, that is an assumption on your part, you have never proved yet he did preexist his berth on tbis earth.
Your words show that you are confused as to what I am establishing with the word ‘begotten.’ Begotten merely means to bring forth, or to bear as in birth. It alone does not say anything about changing from one thing to another thing. It simply means that the Son was begotten (brought forth) from the position within the Father to the position alongside of the Father. For example, a baby does not change into another type of being when it is begotten, neither does it come into existence from a non-existent state when it is begotten. A baby exists before and after it is begotten, the only difference is that it came from within the parent to be alongside of the parent. This, I believe happened before the creation of the world and was the ‘day’ mentioned in the quote of the Father who said, “Today I have begotten you.”
What you seem to be anxious about is when He changed from a Heavenly Being to a fleshly being. You don’t believe that He was a Heavenly Being. I believe that He was/is Jehovah as the Lord of lords in the OT and also called the Word of Jehovah and at times He is called Jehovah of hosts and other things. He was with Abraham when He visited him, appearing as a man with two angels that also appeared as men. He was also the Arm of Jehovah as He led the people out of Egypt. Those are just a couple of examples.
Lu…..You have not produced a shread of actual evidence of a preexisting begottel before the world of anyone, who became know as THE MAN JESUS. YOU SAY “YOU Belive that, but we are not here to descuss you suposed beliefs right, but wher in scripture is that said Right? As far as saying the the LORD (adonia) is the LORD OF lords (adoni) that true, but remenber those words are not the same words. Adoni is a human flesh and blood ruler, while ADONIA IS, YEHWEH, GOD ALMIGHTY and of course he is LORD of lords or ADONIA OF ADONI. David said the LORD (ADOINA) SAID UNTO MY lord (ADONI) A HUMAN RULER, MEANING JESUS, sit on my right hand untill I MAKE your enemies your footstool. I have no problem with that wording it is the truth.
You have not proven JESUS WAS BEGOTTEN FROM A PAST PREEXISTED STATE. I COULD SAY THT ABOUT EVERYONE IF THAT WERE THE CASE, after all scripture say GOD FORKNEW US, AND PREDESTINED US RIGHT? BUT NO SCRIPTURE NOT ONE SAYS THAT we preexisted our berth on this earth as a being of anykind nor did JESUS Either. When GOD SAID “TODAY” I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU HE WAS NOT SPEAKING OF SOME ETERNAL PAST AS YOU INSIST, THAT IS WHAT YOU HAVE YET TO “PROVE” HE WOULD NOT USE THE WORD “TODAY” IF HE MEANT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.IMO
peace and love to you and yours. …………………gene
@GeneBalthrop
The ‘today’ that the Son was begotten was likely on day one of the creation week. Jesus is the spiritual Light of the world and this spiritual Light brought forth was the beginning of the creation of God. Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God (Rev. 3:14), not as the first created thing but as the firstborn of all creation(Col 1:15). It was through the Firstborn that all things were created so obviously He existed before creation. As you finally realize, a birth does not mean beginning of existence, it is just bringing forth someone that already exists.God bless your day!
Lu…..answer to your question is when the sperm of a man impregnates the egg of a women at that time he is begotten , the same with JESUS WHEN GOD THE FATHER INPREGNATED MARY WITH HIS DNA, JESUS WAS BEGOTTEN
BUT JESUS WAS UNIQUELY BEGOTTEN, BECAUSE GOD THE FATHER “MADE” HIS MALE DNA AND MARY SUPPLIED HER DNA AND THAT COMBINATION WAS THE “START” OF JESUS’ EXISTENCE JUST AS IS WITHALL MANKIND, HE WAS A FETAS IN THE PROCESS OF BEING FORMED. cells were deviding and adding to cell making his body parts, he was not fully begotten untill he was fully formed as a self existing being untill he was brought forth from the womb. And the breath of life was added into him, and “then” he became a living soul. (neh’fesh) a breathing creature.I still can’t see what your point?
As far as the rest of what you said, where is you scriptural support? I realize you think it that way but that does not it right.
It should be apparant to you if GOD SAID “HE “SHALL” BE A SON UNTO ME, THAT “SHALL”, IS A FUTURESTIC WORD, SO CAN NOT MEAN HE ALREADY WAS A SON OF GOD, NOW CAN IT? REMEMBER BECAUSE YOU THINK IT, THAT DOSN’T MAKE IT NESSARELY SO, RIGHT?
peace and love to you and yours. ……………..gene
you said:
answer to your question is when the sperm of a man impregnates the egg of a women at that time he is begotten , the same with JESUS WHEN GOD THE FATHER INPREGNATED MARY WITH HIS DNA, JESUS WAS BEGOTTEN
You confuse birth with conception. The term ‘begotten’ refers to the birth.
As far as the rest of what you said, where is you scriptural support?
I gave the scriptures to you. Rev 3:14, Col 1:15-18.
It should be apparant to you if GOD SAID “HE “SHALL” BE A SON UNTO ME, THAT “SHALL”, IS A FUTURESTIC WORD, SO CAN NOT MEAN HE ALREADY WAS A SON OF GOD, NOW CAN IT?
That was speaking about the Son of Man who was born by Mary. The Son of Man was planned to come to earth before creation. The Son of God existed before creation but the Son of God as the Son of Man in the flesh was to be conceived off into the future.
Lu…The term begotten, can mean any time the begettle process has begun, JESUS was “being” begotten at the time of conception. The final begettle process was his berth.
How are you tryi g tomake this be about JESUS preexisting his berth on this earth?
JESUS THE SON OF MAN IS ALSO A SON OF GOD. JUST AS WE ARE, ANDAS ADAM WAS, SCRIPTURE SAY PLAINLY ADAM “THE SON OF GOD” DOES THAT MEAN ADAM PREEXISTED HIS BERTH ON THE EARTH ALSO?
LU WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS FORCING TEXT TO SAY WHAT THEY DO NOT “SPECIFICALLY” SAY. I WILL NOT BUY YOUR SUMMATIONS UNLESS YOU CAN SCRIPTURELY BACK THEM UP. THIS DESCUSION IS NOT ABOUT YOUR OPINION OR MINE IT’s ABOUT WHAT SCRIPTURES ACTUALLY SAY, RIGHT?
peace and love to you and yours. ……………….gene
Now you are confusing begetting with the term pregnancy. The term pregnancy includes the act of conception and the act of begetting. Both conception and begetting happen in a moment. If begetting were a long process that began at conception and ended at birth, the Father would not say ‘Today, I have begotten you.’
Also, Jesus is a Son of God in a unique way than any others who may be considered a son of God. How different from Jesus would a person, in your mind, be if He always existed eternally within the Father as a true offspring, was brought forth from the Father before creation, created the world in cooperation with the Father, became flesh by being born of a woman in order to experience life as a man and deal with what men deal with yet not sin in anyway, teach about the Father, be crucified for our sins, raise up after three days, ascend to heaven and sit upon the right hand of God the Father.
How would that person be different than Jesus????? I really want your thoughts on this Gene.
I appreciate the questions. Have a blessed week!
Lu…..Why would not GOD HAVE SAID THAT, “A DAY WITH GOD IS AS A THOUSAND YEARS AND A THOUSAND YEARS IS AS A DAY”. JESUS CAME INTO EXISTENCE AT THE EXACT PERIOD OF TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY GOD HAD PLANED HIM FORHIM TO. He was prophesied to and at the right time period it happened. So you see “THIS DAY” CAN MEAN A GIVEN TIME PERIOD FAR GREATER THEN A 24 HOUR PERIOD. It can mean, the complete time it took to accomplish the task. So when GOD SAID “THIS DAY” IHAVEBEGOTTEN YOU”, IT STILL FITS
As far as the rest of what you have said, you have not yet proven JESUS’ PREEXISTENCE YET. SO THAT IS JUST A ASSUMPTION ON YOUR PART. WE ARE NOT HERE TO DESCUSS YOU PERSONAL BELIFS RIGHT?, YOU NEED TO PRODUCE SCRIPTURAL PROOF OF YOUR POSITIONS.
@GeneBalthrop
Hi Gene, sorry I have been away for awhile. So you think that when the Father said to Jesus, “Today I have begotten you” He meant that several years from then He will have begotten Him? If that were so, the Word of God called YHVH by the Jews in their Targums would not have existed in the beginning. We are plainly told that the Word was with God in the beginning and we can see many times in the OT and in the Targums where the Word existed and was active. The Word is the Son of God, the Lord of lords. YHVH is the Lord of lords. The Son is YHVH the Lord of lords.Since anyone denying that Jesus is YHVH together with the Father may have eternal consequences, I would think that these 6 dvds would be worth your $$. The whole site is full of interesting information from the Hebraic mindset.
http://webstore.watchmanofzion.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=32Please consider purchasing these, Gene.
Blessings!
Lu……NO WHAT I WAS SAYING IS THAT THE TERM “THIS DAY” DOES NOT HAVE TO MEAN A 24HR PEROID, BECAUSE SCRIPTURE SAY THAT A DAY EQUALS TO A THOUSAND YEARS WITH THE LORD, acording to the apostle PETER. THE REST OF YOUR THING ABOUT IN THE BEGINNIN THE WORD WAS WITH GOD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SUBJECT , YOURDRAWING STRAWS ANDCHANGING SUBJECT MATTER.
AS FAR AS ETERNAL CONSEQUENCES GOES , TRYING TO MAKE THE MAN JESUS INTO A GOD, HAS FAR WORSE CONSEQUENCES IF YOU ASK ME. It completely works to destory GOD THE FATHERS WORK IN MANKIND, you need to learn to seek the truth not what other trintarians are saying. Let the spirit of truth guide you not other mens teaching, or haven’t you ever read,”you have no need of a teacher, for the spirit of truth shall teach you all thing”. I TRUST GOD THE FATHER TO REVEAL THE TRUTH TO ME.
peace and love to you and yours. …………….gene
@GeneBalthrop
I understand that a day can be a thousand years long in God’s mind. However, the act of being begotten was an event.
The event when the Son was begotten happened BEFORE creation in order for creation to be an event to come through Jesus who is also called the firstborn of all creation and the beginning of the creation. The beginning of the creation had to exist before creation could exist. Sorta like the beginning of a race had to exist before the race could exist. The beginning of a work day has to exist before the work day can exist. The beginning of a post has to exist before the post can exist. Get it?
The beginning of something has to exist before the something that it is the beginning of. Jesus had to exist before creation could exist because He is the beginning of the creation.Keep in mind that the act of being begotten merely brings something forth that already exists but was not yet begotten.
God bless!Lightenup. ….You are forcing the text to say what it is not saying, WHILE JESUS IS THE FIRST BORN FROM THE DEAD TO BE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND THROUGH HIS SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS, GIVEN BY THE GRACE OF GOD, WE ALL CAN ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM, NO SCRIPTURE SAYS HE BROUGHT ALL CREATION INTO EXSISTENCE. FOR ONE REASON WE HAVE SCRIPTURES THAT GOD “CLEARLY” SAID HE AND HE “ALONE” CREATED THE WORLD AND EVERYTHING IN IT. NOW IF HE SAID THAT THEN HOW IS IT YOU SAY JESUS DID IT? BY GOD SAYING THAT HE “ALONE” DID IT THEN JESUS WAS NOT EVEN THERE. SO HOW DO YOU SIMPLY IGNORE THOSE CLEARLY WRITTEN SCRIPTURES?
peace and love to you and yours. …………………gene
@GeneBalthrop
The Bible says that YHVH alone created the creation. YHVH is both Father and Son-two persons. YHVH is God of gods AND Lord of lords. Jesus is the Lord of lords, Gene.LU……WHERE DOES ANY SCRIPTURE SAY THAT YHVHH IS BOTH FATHER AND SON ? THAT IS AN OXYMORON. YOU CANT BE THE FATHER OF SOMEONE AND THE SON OF HIM ALSO. While YEHWEH is the GOD OF ALL “SO-CALLED” GOD’S, AND LORD (ADONIA) OF all lords, (adoni’s)(human rulers) as JESUS is. none of what you have said makes JESUS A GOD OF ANYKIND. YOU SPECULATING WITHOUT ANY SCRIPTURIAL PROOF. IMO
Trying to move JESUS TO A GOD IS IDOLATRY LU. REMEMBER WHAT 2Ths 2 says, “BECAUSE THEY RECIEVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH GOD WILL SEND THEM A STRONG DELUSION, IN ORDER FOR THEM TO BELIEVE A “LIE”, AND THAT LIE IS, THAT JESUS IS A GOD, WHICH JESUS HIMSELF WILL ABOLISH WHEN HE RETURNS. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ……………….gene
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