- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Hello all, this thread is a closed discussion between myself and GeneBalthrop. Please do not comment here. If you do, your comments will likely be deleted.
Thank you for respecting the purpose of this thread.
Lightenup
Hi Gene,
Thanks for agreeing to discuss with me here in this closed discussion. I hope that it will be fruitful and educational for us both. This is not a debate to determine a winner and a loser. We both win if we both learn truth from God. Lets address one question at a time, and lets take turns asking the questions, ok? You ask one, I answer it, then I ask you a question which you answer, and so on.
In another thread you asked me:
LIGHTENUP……..IF Jesus was a born human or in your case a “MORPHED” human being then why did he say he was a son of man around 80 times. He became a spritual son of God at the JORDAN river when he was baptised by John and at that day, he was begotten of God the Father, when the voice of God said,” thou art my son , “THIS DAY” I have begotten you.
He was not a spritually a begotten son until he recieved the holy spirit on “that” day. He was simply a son of man brought forth by a normal birth process even though God did manipulate the DNA to look like the person scripture prophesied him to look like. Your view of Jesus existing as an other God is completely wrong, Jesus did not exist untill his berth on this earth.
Another point of your logic being wrong is, this idea the some how saying that Jesus was different because he was made in the “image” of God makes him different then us, does scripture not clearly say that we also are made in the “image” of God? Are we also Gods, like you assume Jesus is, who here can say they are A God, can you ! Can anyone here say that?
peace and love to you and yours. ………………..gene
Let me tackle your first question:
IF Jesus was a born human or in your case a “MORPHED” human being then why did he say he was a son of man around 80 times.
My answer:
He was called the ‘son of man’ because He was born of a human when He became flesh.My question for you:
Why do you quote God the Father as saying this at Jesus’ baptism:
” thou art my son , “THIS DAY” I have begotten you,” when He doesn’t say that at Jesus’ baptism.
God bless!Hey Gene…over here… 🙂
Lightenup, are you saying that is not written in scriptures. Another th8ng you say JESUS WAS BORN,BUT YOU RELIGION DOES NOT ADMIT HE WAS BORN (meaning came into existence) your religion believes he was (MORPHED) into existence from another PREEXISTENCE, which makes him a PREXISTING (MORPHED) BEING, YES OR NO?
HEB 1:5….FOR UNTO WHICH OF THE ANGELS SAID HE (GOD) AT ANY TIME “THOU ART MY SON, “THIS” DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN YOU? AND AGAIN I (GOD) WILL BE TO HIM A FATHER, HE SHALL BE UNTO ME A SON? What does that sayto you?
peace and love to you and yours. ………………gene
Please answer my question, I am not saying that it is not in scriptures, but it is not in the context of baptism. Look and see. Now if you disagree, show me the passage where it says what you say in the context of Jesus’ baptism.
Either you will be able to show me the passage or not. Then we can acknowledge that and one of us has to adjust our thinking. After this is settled, we can move on to your next question.
Btw, I’m glad you showed up. I hope we learn something in this process.
Lu…….so the whole thing of ESUS BEING BAPTIZED WAS A SHAM TO YOU RIGHT ,BECAUSE HE WAS A God aready and JESUS SAID GOD “is” a spirit, sow the holy spirit comming down like a dove and resting on him wasfor a show right? Him telling John to go a head and baptize him for rightiousness sake in order for “them” to fulfill all rightiousness was a show for our sake right?
And i realize you was to disregard whati quoed out of Hebrews and act like it does not mean what it says, but it is written and is there, and should be delt with event hough your religious beliefs would rather it not be there.
Instead of you recognizing the 80 times Jesus said he was indeed a son of man, and trying to make him be omming a son of God by recievingthe holy spirit on “THAT” DAY, and then becomming a true son of God, just as we also do You had rather ignore what he said and what GOD said him too John the baptist.
Your religion also ignores that fact that JESUS IS CALLED THE SECOND ADAM, not the first Adam, but the “SECOND” ADAM. NOW WAS THE FIRST ADAM A MAN OR A “MORPHED” GOD OF SOME KIND? If you say he was a pure human being, the first human beibg GOD CREATED AND IF WE COMPARE Jesus as a “second” created human being, then what makes you believe one is a morphed God of some kind and the other was not? Why evencompare themin scripture then at all, seeningthey would have been a completelt different creation.
On an on it goes i could take you through countless scriptures that say And prove JESUS WAS AND IS A SON OF MAN, and a Son of God just as we who have recieved the Spirit of GOD ARE RIGHT NOW.
You have bought into the biggest “LIE” EVER TOLD, AND THAT IS THE “LIE” FOSTERED BY SATAN HIMSELF, THAT Jesus is a God, who now sits in the temple of God, being desplayed by religions like yours as a God, not as human being. Go read 2 ths2. With that in mind and come out of the (DOCTRINE OF “SEPERATION”), desined by Satan himself to move Jesus’ exact idenity away from his fellow human brothers and sisters, Who are also son and daughters of God By recieving into them that same spirit that was in the ANOINTED MAN JESUS.
peace and love to you and yours. ………………..gene
once again:
Please answer my question, I am not saying that it is not in scriptures, but it is not in the context of baptism. Look and see. Now if you disagree, show me the passage where it says what you say in the context of Jesus’ baptism.
Either you will be able to show me the passage or not. Then we can acknowledge that and one of us has to adjust our thinking. After this is settled, we can move on to your next question.
Try to answer the question. You have given me more questions when I simply need an answer. We can’t move on to other questions until this one is answered and dealt with.
For instance, you might say something like: “”Today I have begotten you” is NOT in the context of baptism, and therefore cannot be assumed that it was said in the context of baptism and I need to revise my other assumptions that came from my false assumption of that.”
Or, you can show me where “Today I have begotten you” is in the context of baptism. If it is there, then quote the passage.
LU……..The context of the spirit comming down and remaining on hiM was the sign to JOHN THAT HE WAS THE ANOINTED Son OF GOD. If he were a GOD ANYWAY WHY WOULD HE EVEN TO BE ANOINTED IN THE FIRST PLACE. It is scriptural knowledge that the anointing spirit of GOD IS WHAT MAKES US ALL HIS HUMAN SONS HIS SPIRITUAL SONS. Ok now show me how it cannot be in the context of his baptism Or was it all perhaps just a show of some kind for our benefit. What is your position of why it even happened?
peace and love to you and yours. …………….gene
Judging from your lack of putting up any passage to defend your position, is it fair to say that you cannot find a passage that contains the words “You are my Son, today I have begotten you,” in the context of baptism? Yes or no
I would really like to move on, Gene. Please answer the question and then ask only one question in return.
Lu….. SAYING “THIS IS MY SON HEAR YOU HIM”, DOES NOT DO AWAY WITH ANYTHING I HAVE SAID, NOR DOES IT DO AWAY WITH JESUS BECOMMING A SPRITUAL SO OF GOD ON THAT DAY EITHER.
BY THE WAY ARE YOU THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN ASK QUESTIONS HERE? IS THIS HOW YOU CONDUCT YOUR DESCUSSIONS, “PLEASE ANSWER “MY” QUESTIONS, YOURS ARE NOT IMPORTANT, looks like a one sided ball game if you ask me, i’ll ask the question you just answer them. Anyone can win a descussion with that kind pathology.
Now lets clearify what HEBREWS Means where it say , “unto which of the angel did GOD ever say “THOU ART MY SON “THIS DAY” I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU’. PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT “THIS” DAY, GOD THE FATHER WAS TALKING ABOUT THERE AND WHO WAS HE TALKING TO?
Two thingS to think about , ONE IS WHAT DOES A DAY MEAN TO GOD, AND THE OTHER IS WHAT DOES THE WORD “BEGOTTEN” MEAN.
peace and love to you and yours. ………………….gene
BY THE WAY ARE YOU THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN ASK QUESTIONS HERE?
No, we both get to ask questions. So far, I have started this discussion with a question from you, then I answered it, then I asked you a question, and I have not gotten a direct answer to it from you. If you want to move on, then directly answer this question:
Judging from your lack of putting up any passage to defend your position, is it fair to say that you cannot find a passage that contains the words “You are my Son, today I have begotten you,” in the context of baptism? Yes or no
Lu…..Are YOU EVEN reading what i wrote? , i have acknowledged that GOD said, this is my beloved son hear you him. How much clearer can i get? NOW that that is out of the way does that statement some how eliminate that GOD WAS SPEAKING OF HIM AS BEGINING A BEGOTTEN SON AT THAT PATICULAR TIME IN HISTORY?
Now you job is to prove he was a son before his berth on this earth. I ful well know evenin a physical sense he was ason of God, at his berth ,becaus GOD THE FATHER CONSTRUCTED HALF OF HIS DNA, WHICH MADE HIM BOTH SON OF MAN AND A SON OF GOD. Just as scripture says that about ADAM, “which was the son of God”, need proof,
LUK 3:38…. “Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of GOD”.LUK 1:35….. And the angel answered and said unto her, THE HOLY GHOST SHALL OVERSHADOW YOU: (NOW PAY ATTINTION) “THEREFORE” (AS A RESULT OF THE HOLY GHOST OR SPOVERSHADOWING HER) also notice the angel did not even know who it was going to be, because he said (THAT HOLY (special) THING) which shall be “BORN” (brought in existence) of thee, SHALL (NOT IS OR WAS as if preexisted, BUT “SHALL BE”) CALLED THE SON OF GOD.
So both ADAM AND JESUS WERE SPICIAL HUMAN CREATIONS OF GOD, BUT JESUS IS THE SECOND HUMAN CREATION, CREATED BY GOD HIMSELF, MAKEING HIM HIS PHYSICAL SON JUST AS ADAM WAS ALSO HIS SON. Apsolutely no difference inthe creative process excep Adam was completely created by GOD FROM SCRATCH, Jesus on the other hand had a human mother whom GOD THE FATHER personally formed his mail DNA. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ……………gene
@GeneBalthrop
Thank you for your patience.
you said:Are YOU EVEN reading what i wrote? , i have acknowledged that GOD said, this is my beloved son hear you him. How much clearer can i get?
Yes, I am reading what you wrote and have concluded that you still do not know what the Father said to Jesus when He was baptized. He did not say “This is my beloved son, hear you him.” AND He did not say “You are my Son, today I have begotten you.”
So, let me tell you what He told Him at His baptism…
Matt 3:13Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. 14John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented. 16And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him,b and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”Your question to me was:
NOW that that is out of the way does that statement some how eliminate that GOD WAS SPEAKING OF HIM AS BEGINING A BEGOTTEN SON AT THAT PATICULAR TIME IN HISTORY?
This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased is all that was said at the baptism of Jesus. From that we are only told that Jesus is God’s beloved Son and that God is well pleased with Him. That does NOT address anything about how He is a Son, or when He became a Son AT ALL.
Now, my turn to ask a question.
Does a physical birth cause someone to exist or did they actually exist for a time before they were born in a pre-begotten state?LU…… SORRY FOR THE MIX UP I WAS QUOTING THE VOICE OF GOD SAYING THIS IS MY BELOVED SON , HEAR HIM. At the mount of transfiguration, in MARK 9:7.
But that is not the point nor does it get rid of the OTHER TEXT THAT SAY , “THIS DAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU “. i realize you rather proceed with out even considering it, But it is twice explicitly mentioned in scriptures.
Also you have completel ignored the other points of my post. Now you are trying to further destract from the subject by saying, “Does a physical berth cause someone to exist or did they actuall exist for a time before they were born in a “PRE-BEGOTTEN state?
Post your scriptures supporting you assumptions. But go back and try to answer my complete post, instead just popshoting it, ans disregarding the issuse being addressed there. Like why did the angel not say a thing about jesus being a preexisted son of God, and why did he say he (SHALL) FUTURE TENSE BE CALLED THE SON OF GOD, He did not say he already was now did he in fact he did not even know who he was explain this if you can.
peace and love to you and yours. ………………….gene
@GeneBalthrop
you said:SORRY FOR THE MIX UP I WAS QUOTING THE VOICE OF GOD SAYING THIS IS MY BELOVED SON , HEAR HIM. At the mount of transfiguration, in MARK 9:7.
No worries, I get mixed up too from time to time. I am glad that we finally agree what was said by God the Father at the baptism of His Son.
you also said:
But that is not the point nor does it get rid of the OTHER TEXT THAT SAY , “THIS DAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU “. i realize you rather proceed with out even considering it, But it is twice explicitly mentioned in scriptures.
Gene, I am happy to talk with you about this and any Bible passage. I just want to go with one question at a time. One question from you, I answer, then one question from me, you answer, repeat. If you fill your answer up with several questions, that keeps us from settling anything. Now that we have settled that “This day I have begotten you” is not said during Jesus’ baptism and we are in agreement as to “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased” as what the Father said during Jesus’ baptism, we can move on.
you said:
Also you have completel ignored the other points of my post. Now you are trying to further destract from the subject by saying, “Does a physical berth cause someone to exist or did they actuall exist for a time before they were born in a “PRE-BEGOTTEN state?
What seems like me ignoring the other points is actually me trying to settle one thing at a time. We can discuss for months here, Lord willing, but one question at a time, please. Do not accuse me of ignoring your points or trying to distract you. My question has to do with the word ‘begotten’ and that is in line with “This day I have begotten you” which you are so interested in discussing.
Now, that I have explained myself to you, am I correct in that you want to discuss the Father’s words from Hebrews 1: 5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?
I assume that you want to discuss this but you have interlaced it with many questions, so I am not sure. I will address this verse for now.I believe that the question “For to which of the angels did He ever say…” is to be answered with: He didn’t say that to any of the angels. He said that to His only begotten Son who is like Himself as a true father is to a true son. He says that to His Son at the time that the Father brought Him forth from within Himself in some way.
Regarding this: And again,
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?
I think that has to do with Jesus as the Son of Man. The Father has one son in a unique way, begotten before creation and through that one son, the Father does all things that affect the creation including create the creation and save the creation. That one son willingly became lower than the angels and was made to be a man beginning with the conception in Mary. As man, the Heavenly Father is again a father to Him because of His miraculous conception. So, the Father is a ‘father’ to the Son who was begotten before creation, and again a ‘father’ to the Son as He became a man.Now, you can keep asking me about this topic but just give me one question at a time. I’m sure I just scratched the surface of your questions.
When you post another question, also answer my question that I have already asked you, which is:
Does a physical birth cause someone to exist or did they actually exist for a time before they were born in a pre-begotten state (ex:within the womb for nine months)?Lu…..i understand that a human being begins life in the womb of his mother 9 months before he or she is born. What does that have to do with JESUS PREEXITING as another sentenial being, before his human existence? It takes the combination of male and female DNA TO Begin a new life form. No where does any scripture say JESUS WAS “MORPHED” FROM ONE EXISTENCE TO ANOTHER THOUGH. This is why i tried to show you that even the angel gabriel, did not reconise who he was, his very words prove that. Him saying therefore that Holy “THING” , “SHALL BE” CALLED the Son of GOD. IT WAS BECAUSE the SPIRIT OF GOD OVERSHADOWED HER, the holy spirit giving JESUS HIS MALE DNA , Mary supplying the other half. The combination of that produced another uniquely born child as a son of GOD, WHO WAS HIS Physical Father.
Your job is to prove some kind of MORPHING PROCESS TALKING PLACE, IF YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY JESUS PREEXISTED HIS BERTH AS SOME kind of sentenial being. Lets not get boged down in the nine month gestation period, pryer to his berth. He was indeed “begotten” of GOD before his berth, but that has nothing to do with a preexisting sentenial being who was put into MARY’S womb. Adam is also called a Son of God, as i have shown you, was he also a preexisting being?
Another point when GOD SAID “THIS DAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU” HE LIMITED it to certain day, a destinct time period of time, that he “begot” JESUS right?
peace and love to you and yours. ……………….gene
@GeneBalthrop
you said:i understand that a human being begins life in the womb of his mother 9 months before he or she is born. What does that have to do with JESUS PREEXITING as another sentenial being, before his human existence?
Another point when GOD SAID “THIS DAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU” HE LIMITED it to certain day, a destinct time period of time, that he “begot” JESUS right?
You are equating a begetting with a conception it seems. I am equating a begetting with a birth. I think that is what is confusing you. If begetting happens at birth and NOT at conception, then the day of begetting does not address how long before He existed before the begetting.
I will address another question from your post next time after you acknowledge what I just wrote. I am not ignoring the rest of your post. 🙂
Let me give you an example…if Jesus was the firstborn from the dead, He had to exist with the dead before being begotten from the dead. Right? That is an example that shows Jesus already existed before He was born from the dead. So, in like manner, I believe that a being has to exist before they are born from/begotten from another being. Do you understand this?
LU…….No you have it wrong i believe, jesus was not begotten from the dead he was “resuected from the dead, the process of begetting takes place at conception, begetting is the process. Begot is the completion of the process. Here is an example, ADAM BEGOT Able, “WHEN” , was it not when he and Eve had sex, that was the be-“getting” process and after he was BORN then he was the be-gotten son of Adam and Eve. The One who was produced by him.
God addressed the time he begot JESUS, Saying “this day” or as properly worded “TODAY” i have begotten you. Your job is to figure out what “TODAY” day that was. HE CERTAINLY WAS NOT SPEAKING OF TIMES PAST. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours. ………………gene
@GeneBalthrop
you said:No you have it wrong i believe, jesus was not begotten from the dead
Rev 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,Gene, it is you that has it wrong and that scripture proves it. Can you admit that Jesus was the first begotten of the dead and therefore, to be begotten does not mean there, to be conceived but indeed, to be begotten of the dead requires a person to exist beforehand?
Until you can see this, continuing on discussing ‘today I have begotten you,’ according to your wrong understanding will merely be building on a foundation of sand.
Lu…… SORRY ABOUT THE MIXUP, JESUS IS THE FIRST “BEGOTTEN” FROM THE DEAD, TO ETERNAL LIFE, THAT IS A “PAST” TENSE EXPRESSION, it is not saying, JESUS is the first be-getting from the dead, now does it? If it said that, then JESUS WOULD STILL BE IN THE PROCESS OF BEING BE-GOTTEN. BE-GETTING IS THE PROCESS, BE-GOT IS AFTER THE PROCESS HAS TAKEN PLACE. THAT WAS THE ISSUE WE WERE DESCUSSING I BELIEVE.
I AM STILL RIGHT ABOUT THE REST OF WHAT I SAID, I EXPRESSED THAT WAY BECAUSE I WAS,THINK YOU WERE STILL TRYING TO MAKE BEGOTTEN MEAN A ON GOING PROCESS, INSTEAD OF A PAST EXPRESSION OF SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED BEFORE. I LEFT OUT THE WORD “BEING” AS I WAS MEANING ,Jesus was not BEING “BEGOTTEN” AS IN A PROCESS, BUT HE WAS BEGOTTEN FROM THE DEAD. AS A COMPLETED PROCESS. IS WHAT I MEANT.
BEGOTTEN FROM THE DEAD, IS A PAST EXPRESSION, AN IT IS SIMPLY TALKING OF AN EXISTING PERSON WHO HAS DIED, YOU TRYING TO MAKE THAT MEAN A PERSON ALREADY PREEXISTED WHO CAME INTO “EXISTENCE” AT HIS BERTH IS TRYING TO MAKE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SUBJECT MATTERS MEAN THE SAME THING. You have no scripture that says, JESUS WAS BEGOTTEN FROM “Another state of existence of a sentenial being”. WHY NOT PRODUCE THAT SCRIPTURE, IF IT EXIST? When God the father said “TODAY” I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU, HE MEANT THAT VERY DAY OR TIME PERIOD, NOT IN SOME TIME PAST, AS YOU FALSELY BELIEVE.
LU YOUR PLAYING WORD GAMES TO TRYING TO MAKE SQUARE PEGS IN ROUND HOLES, SOMETHING FIT, THAT DOES NOT FIT. WE CALL THAT GRABBING FOR STRAWS. IF YOU BELIEVE IN SOMETHING “PROVING”, JESUS PREEXISTED HIS LIFE ON THIS EARTH PLEASE PRODUCE A “CLEAR” SCRIPTURE SUPPORTING YOUR CLAIM, STOP THE WORD GAMES OK, IT ONLY ADDS TO CONFUSION.
Do you actually believe if JESUS PREEXISTED HIS BERTH AS SOMEONE OTHER THEN A HUMAN BEING, THAT SOMETHING THAT IMPORTANT WOULD NO HAVE BEEN ADDRESS “CLEARLY” IN THE OLD TESTEMENT OR BY HIM AND ALL THE APOSTLES, Do you actuall think there would be apsolutley no record of ANY of his past existence or any activity mentioned in scriptures about what he was doing in his preexistent life?
peace and love to you and yours. ……………gene
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
