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To All…..>I would like to start this topic off by is saying (THE) Law the same as when we say Law by it self in scripture. The definite article does not appear in many places in Paul writing of Galatians and Romans and by removing this definite article does it effect our understanding of what Paul was saying. For instance we read in Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of (the) law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by (the) works of (the) law: for by (the) works of (the) law shall no flesh be justified.
Now if we read the in the Geek translations it reads…..> having known that not is a man made right from (works) of (Law) but through trust of Jesus Christ, and we in Christ Jesus trusted, that we might be made right from trust of Christ and not from (works) of (Law) that from (works) of (Law) not will be made right all flesh.
Notice the definite articles are not in the original Greek translations. This does greatly alter the texts, because the Definite Article is specific to a set of Laws (the ten commandments) but when it is removed, then Law by it self is in a general sense and means the way law works and law works through forced compliance through the medium of fear of the consequences of disobedience to it. Fear gives the law its power and if a person is driven to obey through fear they are not made right in their heart, they can have an outward appearance of righteousness, but inwardly are not right and therefore are not Justified before GOD. I believe this is what Paul was driving at. It had nothing to do with the Ten Commandments being done away with at all but just they (WAY) we Keep them. IMO
peace and love to you all……………………….gene
Gene said:
Quote Notice the definite articles are not in the original Greek translations. This does greatly alter the texts, because the Definite Article is specific to a set of Laws (the ten commandments) but when it is removed, then Law by it self is in a general sense and means the way law works and law works through forced compliance through the medium of fear of the consequences of disobedience to it. Fear gives the law its power and if a person is driven to obey through fear they are not made right in their heart, they can have an outward appearance of righteousness, but inwardly are not right and therefore are not Justified before GOD. I believe this is what Paul was driving at. It had nothing to do with the Ten Commandments being done away with at all but just they (WAY) we Keep them. IMO Brother Gene,
Don't get too tripped up about the presence or absence of definite articles. Paul was saying that we cannot be justified by any law including the ten commandments.Quote Tell me you who desire to be justified under law (no definite article), do you not hear the law? (Gal. 4:21) The definite article in the first part of the statement is absent. But in the second part of the statement the article is present. And we know that Paul was referring to the law which came from Sinai,
Quote For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage….(4:24) The Mosaic code in its entirety has been abolished in reference to our justification before God.
Then Paul goes on to say that circumcision has been abolished which was pre-Sinai (5:11). Therefore, all law whether Sinatic or pre-Sinatic has been abolished. We are not under any of the old covenant dispensations today. We are under grace!
thinker
thinker ……….Yes but then Paul says shall we (SIN) that grace may abound, He said, GOD forbid. And scripture says that all sin is the transgression of the Law. You see my point on the one hand we are told we are not under (the) Law (meaning the ten commandments) on the other Hand we are told God writes (the) Law (meaning the ten commandments) on our Hearts and minds, and we obey (the) Law. Do you see where i am coming from , we are given different messages, and i think it has to do with the definite article being added in the text. (the law) ie ten commandments and works of (law) forced compliance are not the same. Read through the text and replace ten commandments every where you see (the Law) and everywhere you see law, replace it with forced compliance and you will get the picture i am trying to show . It appears that Paul never said the Ten Commandments were ever done away with but Just the way there Keep Has. One way is by force compliance through the medium of fear (Ex 20:20) made for the CARNAL Minded, and the other way is by the Spirit of GOD , which changes our hearts and minds all done by the power of GOD. But the issue of the commandments being done away with is not what Paul was saying just the (WAY) they are Kept was the issue. So the Ten Commandments are still supposed to be Kept but through a New and living way, by the Spirit of God in Us. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
G,
To the jewish converts in Christ Paul wrote.Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.Nick…….The scripture you quoted in the Greek does not have the article (THE) in front of Law. Paul was saying those who were led of the Spirit were not under Law (forced compliance) nothing to do with obeying the commandments at all. Just the way they were kept is all Paul was saying. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene
Nick………Starting with the personal attacks again, right, exactly (WHERE) did i say say we (ARE) Robots. If you have a better explanation of LAW please give it them , but can you shed the conbdensending remarks, i realize it in your Spirit but perhaps asking God for Help may Help you, brother. IMO
peace……………………………gene
Nick………..Again with the labeling , and what you said is personal, now you are even directly lying , and of course you would find my so-called theories Abhorrent to you, because you believe you by your own so-called (free Will) Choices you save yourself, right. Why are the so-called religious people on this site always the ones attacking everyone, Maybe Martian was not the far off in what He was saying.
This is supposed to be a subject about the Law, so can you trash your foul mouth false accusing for a while.
peace………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Feb. 21 2009,12:58) Nick………Starting with the personal attacks again, right, exactly (WHERE) did i say say we (ARE) Robots. If you have a better explanation of LAW please give it them , but can you shed the conbdensending remarks, i realize it in your Spirit but perhaps asking God for Help may Help you, brother. IMO peace……………………………gene
Gene,Any time Nick intervenes in a thread you know where it is headed – off subject and into the things you describe. That's Nick. Near as I can tell always has been!
Back to “The law vs. vs. law.” For justification and righteousness, no law – ten commandments, civil, etc. will get the job done.
Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it–
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,There are many other passages that say the same thing. A question I have always had was, “why does a 'saved' 'coveed by the blood of Jesus' 'professor that Jesus is Lord' desire to
insist they are not under law? Is there some ethical principal they are bent on violating? Perhaps stealing, robbery, adultery!Many have said again and again, Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. So then, led by the Spirit, what law will you violate? None!!
Here is freedom an victory in Jesus –
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.So then, “Law/The Law”, no matter – we stand justified by faith, declared righteous, walking by the Spirit. And the righteous requirements of the law are met in us. Why wouldn't they be!
(As an aside, see what leads into provoking one another,
conceit! Gal. 5:26)Blessings,
Seeking
Quote (Gene @ Feb. 22 2009,05:55) thinker ……….Yes but then Paul says shall we (SIN) that grace may abound, He said, GOD forbid. And scripture says that all sin is the transgression of the Law. You see my point on the one hand we are told we are not under (the) Law (meaning the ten commandments) on the other Hand we are told God writes (the) Law (meaning the ten commandments) on our Hearts and minds, and we obey (the) Law. Do you see where i am coming from , we are given different messages, and i think it has to do with the definite article being added in the text. (the law) ie ten commandments and works of (law) forced compliance are not the same. Read through the text and replace ten commandments every where you see (the Law) and everywhere you see law, replace it with forced compliance and you will get the picture i am trying to show . It appears that Paul never said the Ten Commandments were ever done away with but Just the way there Keep Has. One way is by force compliance through the medium of fear (Ex 20:20) made for the CARNAL Minded, and the other way is by the Spirit of GOD , which changes our hearts and minds all done by the power of GOD. But the issue of the commandments being done away with is not what Paul was saying just the (WAY) they are Kept was the issue. So the Ten Commandments are still supposed to be Kept but through a New and living way, by the Spirit of God in Us. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Gene,
We have been delivered from the ten commandments as a means of justification. We have been delivered from the letter of it so that we may serve in the newness of the spirit (Rom. 7:6,Quote But now we have been delievred from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Paul was talking about the ten commandments, (v.8). It's not that we don't serve the law anymore. It's that we serve in a new way. But the ceremonial law is done away altogether.
thinker
the thinker………That is exactly what i am saying , we obey the commandments , not by works of Law, but by the Spirit of GOD through a new and living way. We need to define law Ex 20:20, what do we mean by (works of Law), So that requires us to explain how Law work. How does Law work is it not through the medium of fear . If you took fear away from it, Law would have not power at all. And if you are moved by Fear of breaking the Law and are controlled by that fear, you are not being made right, is Paul's argument but only by the love of God, for love casts out fear and Love also fulfills (the) Law ie, the ten commandments. Love does not operate through the medium of fear as law does. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Feb. 22 2009,16:54) the thinker………That is exactly what i am saying , we obey the commandments , not by works of Law, but by the Spirit of GOD through a new and living way. We need to define law Ex 20:20, what do we mean by (works of Law), So that requires us to explain how Law work. How does Law work is it not through the medium of fear . If you took fear away from it, Law would have not power at all. And if you are moved by Fear of breaking the Law and are controlled by that fear, you are not being made right, is Paul's argument but only by the love of God, for love casts out fear and Love also fulfills (the) Law ie, the ten commandments. Love does not operate through the medium of fear as law does. IMO Peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Gene,
In Romans 7 Paul said that the law gave us the knowledge of sin. In Galatians 3 he said that the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith in Jesus Christ. We agree that we serve the ten commandments in the newness of the spirit now. We cannot be justified by them.Then there was ceremonial law which we are not bound to or serve at all today.
thinker
Quote (Gene @ Feb. 21 2009,22:54) How does Law work is it not through the medium of fear .
For the believer there is a motivation to obey the law that does not stem from fear, but rather, from love. IMO2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;
2Co 5:15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Hi S,
of course when Jesus said
MY COMMANDMENTS
he was not referring to the
TEN COMMANDMENTSThey are of God.
Jesus gave commandments.
You must be born again
Love one another as I have loved you
Do this in memory of me etcThinker……..You are right laws do teach, just like our Speed laws they teach us how to drive safely, but they by no means can make you a safe driver. The intent of these laws are for safety , but because there are unsafe drivers we have to codify (Safety) into Laws, and when we do that we then have to (enforce) them, through enforcement means, Highway Patrol, fines , courts, etc. Mind you for Just safty we do this. Why because human nature is not safety minded as a rule So people ar force to through the medium of Law which generates fear and there by control and regulates the unsafe behavior, but again not of this can ever make a person a safe driver. If we did not have Stop signs the death total would ski rocket here. But at the same time there are those who are natural safety minded and would slow down or stop at intersections even if there weren't any traffic Laws, because they are already safety minded. These people don't need any (LAW) they are already Safety minded and therefore fullfill the (INTENT) of the LAW, which is Safety.
You see SAFETY has not been done away with at all. So the person who drives doesn't need (LAW), but because he doesn't need law, that does not remove SAFETY From the picture it still remains. Even so with the Ten Commandments, they still remain even without the law (forced compliance) working through the medium of fear.
You see my point, (LAW) forced compliance through the medium of FEAR, can Never make a person right, But that does not get rid of the Ten Commandments, we Simply are changed by GOD to fulfill them. So the Commandments are eternal Just Who we Keep them was what Paul was talking about. IMO
love and peace to you and yours brother…………………………….gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2009,10:49) Hi S,
of course when Jesus said
MY COMMANDMENTS
he was not referring to the
TEN COMMANDMENTSThey are of God.
Jesus gave commandments.
You must be born again
Love one another as I have loved you
Do this in memory of me etc
When did He teach to violate them?Rather He taught how to fulfill the law and the prophets by quoting them.
Mat 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
Mat 22:37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”Hi S,
Did I say he taught gentiles to violate the commandments?
Please be careful in your choice of words.As you show above he taught about the Law.
He taught the Jews about it because it related to them.
But he did not then teach that all gentiles must obey the OT law.He is TRUTH and so we should be careful what we ask him.
Quote Jesus gave commandments. You must be born again
This wasn't so much a command as a statement of fact. (It's not rendered in the imperative mood or the form of a command.)
Some Bibles translate this such as: “It is necessary for you to be born from above.” (Modern Young's Literal translation; John 3:7)
Example:
And outsider says to a principle:”I want to enroll in your school.”Princpal tells him: “To enroll, you must be a native.”
He is not ordering the guy to become a native. He's simply stating a fact.
It's God who gives the “new birth.” (1 pet 1:3), not we ourselves.
nick wrote:[/quote]
Nick,You are back to the double talk! You say –
Quote Did I say he taught gentiles to violate the commandments?
Please be careful in your choice of words.Then you say –
Quote But he did not then teach that Quote all Quote gentiles must obey the OT law So, what are you saying? Some of the Gentiles had to obey the law? None of the Gentiles had to obey the law? Neither?
Which of the two laws that Jesus quoted do not apply to Jew and Gentile? Do you infer that if a statement is made to Jews it has no application to Gentiles?
Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel ]herefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” herefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit Only has application to Jews?
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