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Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,02:28) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,11:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2011,08:41) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,00:28) Mike, You choose to ignore what does not fit your chosen worldview so be careful about throwing stones you that live in a glass house.
I will, Kerwin.Now, would you give me a DIRECT answer to my question?
Kerwin, WHO had the glory of an only begotten from the Father?
Thanks,
mike
Mike,The YLT, ASV, NKJV, and NASV like the KJV have the words “as of” in John 1:14 thus comparing the glory of the Word become flesh to the glory of the only begotten of God. So going by those versions the answer would be that the Word which became a human being has a glory like that child.
Quote John 1:14 King James Version (KJV)
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The NIV does not have those words and thus the two glory's can be said to be the same glory.
You seem to be using the NIV translation or a similar one which apears to drop a translated word of the common Greek word “hos” out of the scripture.
I also find the choice to use a comparison word a mystery.
Note: The word hos has a “-” over the “o”.
Kerwinyou still did not answer Mike s question ,
your answer is what
?your argument is only as good as your conclusion but you do not have any
Pierre
Pierre,Mike's question was not based on actual scripture as I pointed out.
Since he did not I answered the question that he should have asked by stating that it is the only begotten of God has the same glory as the only begotten of God according to John 1:14.
The word made flesh has a glory like that glory according to the same verse.
If you do not like those answers then argue with God who chose to use a comparison adverb in the verse or continue the conversation by explaining your understanding of why he chose to do so. I admitted I am unsure though it may be a manner of speaking similar to stating a human being has the likeness of a human.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 09 2011,05:49) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2011,11:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2011,08:41) Kerwin, WHO had the glory of an only begotten from the Father? mike
Mike,The YLT, ASV, NKJV, and NASV like the KJV have the words “as of” in John 1:14 thus comparing the glory of the Word become flesh to the glory of the only begotten of God. So going by those versions the answer would be that the Word which became a human being has a glory like that child.
That IS what the scripture teaches, Kerwin: That the Word which became a human being had the glory as of the only begotten from the Father.There is only ONE human being who ever existed that had the glory as of the only begotten from the Father.
The Word became that human being, Kerwin – just as you have now concluded. This teaching is supported in Phil 2, where the one who was existing in the form of God emptied himself and was made into a human being. In Phil 2 – and later in John 1 – this one is clearly identified as Christ Jesus.
peace,
mike
Mike,That is not what the letter of John 1:14 teaches as John 1:14 compares the glory of the Word made flesh to the glory of the only begotten of God.
It also does not even state the gender of the only begotten of God.
It is plausible that God was using a manner of speaking that his listeners of that time would understand where a member of a group is said to be like the group. An example of this is to say a human being is human like.
If this is the case then it could reasonbly be stated as your state that John 1:14 means “That the Word which became a human being had the glory as of the only begotten from the Father.”
Of course that also mean that a human being could be stated to be human like, such as is done in certain verses of Phillipians 2.
I believe the Word was made human by the Spirit of God uniting with the human human being Jesus.
The Spirit has the divine nature of God and did preexist the conception of Jesus the human being.
Edited: Added a few words to credit Mike with his words that are in quotes.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,23:04) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,02:28) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,11:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2011,08:41) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,00:28) Mike, You choose to ignore what does not fit your chosen worldview so be careful about throwing stones you that live in a glass house.
I will, Kerwin.Now, would you give me a DIRECT answer to my question?
Kerwin, WHO had the glory of an only begotten from the Father?
Thanks,
mike
Mike,The YLT, ASV, NKJV, and NASV like the KJV have the words “as of” in John 1:14 thus comparing the glory of the Word become flesh to the glory of the only begotten of God. So going by those versions the answer would be that the Word which became a human being has a glory like that child.
Quote John 1:14 King James Version (KJV)
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The NIV does not have those words and thus the two glory's can be said to be the same glory.
You seem to be using the NIV translation or a similar one which apears to drop a translated word of the common Greek word “hos” out of the scripture.
I also find the choice to use a comparison word a mystery.
Note: The word hos has a “-” over the “o”.
Kerwinyou still did not answer Mike s question ,
your answer is what
?your argument is only as good as your conclusion but you do not have any
Pierre
Pierre,Mike's question was not based on actual scripture as I pointed out.
Since he did not I answered the question that he should have asked by stating that it is the only begotten of God has the same glory as the only begotten of God according to John 1:14.
The word made flesh has a glory like that glory according to the same verse.
If you do not like those answers then argue with God who chose to use a comparison adverb in the verse or continue the conversation by explaining your understanding of why he chose to do so. I admitted I am unsure though it may be a manner of speaking similar to stating a human being has the likeness of a human.
Kerwinto understand Christ as son of man you should read is bird in Luke 1;26…….
this may help you to understand John 1;1………….
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2011,23:24) That is not what the letter of John 1:14 teaches as John 1:14 compares the glory of the Word made flesh to the glory of the only begotten of God. I believe the Word was made human by the Spirit of God uniting with the human human being Jesus.
Okay Kerwin,So if the Word made flesh is the unity of God's Spirit and the human Jesus, the who is the only begotten of God that this unity's glory was compared to?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2011,08:31) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2011,23:24) That is not what the letter of John 1:14 teaches as John 1:14 compares the glory of the Word made flesh to the glory of the only begotten of God. I believe the Word was made human by the Spirit of God uniting with the human human being Jesus.
Okay Kerwin,So if the Word made flesh is the unity of God's Spirit and the human Jesus, the who is the only begotten of God that this unity's glory was compared to?
Mike,I do not yet know for sure what God's purpose is for those words and what I suspect about them could be wrong. I plan to pray and seek for an answer knowing God reveals his truth to those that seek his righteousness and his kingdom.
Pierre,
Here is the scripture you asked me to examine. It is plausible the “as of” is in John 1:14 for the same reason that the angel used “called” in Luke 1:32 and 35.
Quote Luke 1 King James Version (KJV)
26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37For with God nothing shall be impossible.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2011,22:32) Pierre, Here is the scripture you asked me to examine. It is plausible the “as of” is in John 1:14 for the same reason that the angel used “called” in Luke 1:32 and 35.
Quote Luke 1 King James Version (KJV)
26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37For with God nothing shall be impossible.
KerwinI do not understand what you looking for or what you want to explain to me,
to me it is all very clear,
assume for a moment that you have been raised up by poor parents but your mother ad a affair with a king ,so what would you call your self?and when your genetic father comes and says this is my son ,
what would you be called ?tell mePierre
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 10 2011,11:31) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2011,22:32) Pierre, Here is the scripture you asked me to examine. It is plausible the “as of” is in John 1:14 for the same reason that the angel used “called” in Luke 1:32 and 35.
Quote Luke 1 King James Version (KJV)
26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37For with God nothing shall be impossible.
KerwinI do not understand what you looking for or what you want to explain to me,
to me it is all very clear,
assume for a moment that you have been raised up by poor parents but your mother ad a affair with a king ,so what would you call your self?and when your genetic father comes and says this is my son ,
what would you be called ?tell mePierre
Pierre,I would be called a bastard the son of an adulteress.
If a king chose to reconize one of his bastard children then that child would not be called the child of another man.
Jesus is called the child of David as well as the child of God because there is no conflict with Jesus having one father of his body and another of his spirit. On the other hand there is a conflict with with having two fathers of the body unless the child is the oddity known as a chimera.
I am just searching why God chose certain word use that seems to stick out.
Edited to add last sentence and latter to correct the spelling of king.
Kerwin
Quote Jesus is called the child of David as well as the child of God because there is no conflict with Jesus having one father of his body and another of his spirit. On the other hand there is a conflict with with having two fathers of the body unless the child is the oddity known as a chimera. so in your view God as nothing to do with Christ physical body ?
are not try to looking to prove what is not there?
Pierre
Kerwin! I think to make sure you understand who The Word of God is, I have given you this Scripture to compare….
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Kerwin, who is that??? I thinki you should see out of this Scripture that it is a man, who will come back as The Word of God… and smite the nations with the wrath of God… which the nations need…. i just hope I am dead by then….Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 09 2011,10:04) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 08 2011,05:16) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2011,04:27) Hi Ed, (1) Was my previous post to you correct? YES or NO? (2) Was it JESUS who had the glory as an only begotten from the Father? YES or NO?
Hi Mike,1) No.
2) Your point number 2 is worded in such a way that it cannot be answered with either a yes or a no.
They beheld the glory of the father, in His only begotten Son. (John 1:14)
“The Word” maketh the Son. (Hebrews 7:28)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
No Ed!They beheld His (Jesus') glory. It says that they beheld the glory as of the “only Son” of the Father.
Jack
Hi Jack,How many commandments are in the Torah? Why 613, of course!
Matt.6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.Who does Jesus say glory belongs to? <–Please don't take too long.
And again… “the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father“ (Matt.16:27)
And again… Stephen, being full of the HolySpirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven,
and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God (Acts 7:55)Therefore, now, I do also ask: do you seek to nullify all these Scriptures? (Eph.1:17)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Aug. 11 2011,13:32) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 09 2011,10:04) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 08 2011,05:16) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2011,04:27) Hi Ed, (1) Was my previous post to you correct? YES or NO? (2) Was it JESUS who had the glory as an only begotten from the Father? YES or NO?
Hi Mike,1) No.
2) Your point number 2 is worded in such a way that it cannot be answered with either a yes or a no.
They beheld the glory of the father, in His only begotten Son. (John 1:14)
“The Word” maketh the Son. (Hebrews 7:28)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
No Ed!They beheld His (Jesus') glory. It says that they beheld the glory as of the “only Son” of the Father.
Jack
Hi Jack,How many commandments are in the Torah? Why 613, of course!
Matt.6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.Who does Jesus say glory belongs to? <–Please don't take too long.
And again… “the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father“ (Matt.16:27)
And again… Stephen, being full of the HolySpirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven,
and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God (Acts 7:55)Therefore, now, I do also ask: do you seek to nullify all these Scriptures? (Eph.1:17)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Edjhow many of the 613 commandment are not included in the two Christ mention ?
Pierre
Hi Pierre,
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the
righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (Rom.3:20-22)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Aug. 11 2011,15:11) Hi Pierre, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the
righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (Rom.3:20-22)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjthat was not my question
so answer if you can to my question
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,22:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2011,08:31) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2011,23:24) That is not what the letter of John 1:14 teaches as John 1:14 compares the glory of the Word made flesh to the glory of the only begotten of God. I believe the Word was made human by the Spirit of God uniting with the human human being Jesus.
Okay Kerwin,So if the Word made flesh is the unity of God's Spirit and the human Jesus, the who is the only begotten of God that this unity's glory was compared to?
Mike,I do not yet know for sure what God's purpose is for those words and what I suspect about them could be wrong. I plan to pray and seek for an answer knowing God reveals his truth to those that seek his righteousness and his kingdom.
I'm quite sure that what you suspect about them IS wrong, Kerwin.
As Irene has showed you, Rev 19 tells us exactly who the “Word” is. And it is this same “Word” who was already God's only begotten before he was made flesh.
That is why Jesus had the glory as of an only begotten from the Father, Kerwin. Because he WAS the only begotten from the Father.
Kerwin, I know that Gene's agenda on the pre-existent subject is to do anything to keep Jesus from having ever been something other than “exactly like us”. What's your agenda?
I seriously wonder why you are willing come up with an understanding that allows for an “unknown” only begotten from the Father, but at the same time are so hell-bent against just accepting that Jesus has been God's only begotten Son way before God sent him into the world.
You accept that Jesus is the one born first of the NEW creation. But you won't accept that he is the one born first of ALL creation. Why? After all, the scripture says ALL, not NEW.
You accept that the NEW ages were created through him, but you won't accept that THE ages were created through him. Why? The scripture doesn't say that the NEW ages were created through Jesus, does it?
These are just a couple of things I wonder about with you. I'm curious about WHY you work so hard at spinning the scriptures to come out your way, when your way often leaves gaping wholes in the story of the Lord of lords.
Is there a particular scriptural reason why it is COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to have pre-existed? How about a personal reason that you have?
peace,
mikeHi Pierre,
Do you mean how many of the 613 commandments we should still follow?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Aug. 11 2011,17:30) Hi Pierre, Do you mean how many of the 613 commandments we should still follow?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjno;how many of the 613 commandment are not included in the two Christ mention ?
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 10 2011,23:31) Kerwin Quote Jesus is called the child of David as well as the child of God because there is no conflict with Jesus having one father of his body and another of his spirit. On the other hand there is a conflict with with having two fathers of the body unless the child is the oddity known as a chimera. so in your view God as nothing to do with Christ physical body ?
are not try to looking to prove what is not there?
Pierre
Pierre,God created Jesus' physical body, changed it,maintains it, and all ways gives existence to it as he does with all things, but otherwise no.
You should remember that God is spirit and desires those who worship him in the spirit.
Jesus is one who fulfills that desire as well as the one through which others fullfil that same desire. Doing those two things is what makes him the Son of God.
Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 11 2011,01:01) Kerwin! I think to make sure you understand who The Word of God is, I have given you this Scripture to compare…. Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Kerwin, who is that??? I thinki you should see out of this Scripture that it is a man, who will come back as The Word of God… and smite the nations with the wrath of God… which the nations need…. i just hope I am dead by then….Peace and Love Irene
Irene,Scripture is called the Word of God and yet you choose not to believe that Joh 1- is speaking of scripture.
So why would you use a different measurement and choose to believe that John 1- is speaking of Jesus because he also is called the Word of God.
As for me, I chose to believe the Word is the Word and that the Spirit of God expresses the Word whether it does so in Scripture or in Jesus.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2011,18:01) Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 11 2011,01:01) Kerwin! I think to make sure you understand who The Word of God is, I have given you this Scripture to compare…. Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Kerwin, who is that??? I thinki you should see out of this Scripture that it is a man, who will come back as The Word of God… and smite the nations with the wrath of God… which the nations need…. i just hope I am dead by then….Peace and Love Irene
Irene,Scripture is called the Word of God and yet you choose not to believe that Joh 1- is speaking of scripture.
So why would you use a different measurement and choose to believe that John 1- is speaking of Jesus because he also is called the Word of God.
As for me, I chose to believe the Word is the Word and that the Spirit of God expresses the Word whether it does so in Scripture or in Jesus.
Kerwin! So what you are saying that Rev. 19:13-16 is The Word of God, who became Jesus but not John 1:1? That is so wrong it is the same person, and not the Spirit of God or His words…..Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Look at this Scripture. First it tells us that we beheld HIS, HIS glory…how can a spoken word of God be His, and become flesh…and who is the only begotten of the Father? It is who became Jesus …He is full of grace and truth…. A word alone cannot be made flesh…. that is ridiculous….
Also why do you think I gave you Rev. 19? Do you believe that is Jesus?
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