Kathy What Do You Mean By Preexisting Sonship?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2011,22:05)

Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2011,23:10) Note: I used the lexicons at searchgodsword.com to obtain the definition for logos and rhema. Look at the FIRST definition of both words, Kerwin.  “A word uttered by a living voice”.  If you and Paladin want to claim YOU know about some mystical meaning here and there, feel free.  But “logos” and “rhema” BOTH refer to a word uttered by a human voice, and are used interchangeably.

Hi Mike

I agree!

WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (Istari @ June 09 2011,16:00)

Kathi, and others, What does Rev 3:14 mean by 'These things say the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the BEGINNING of the CREATION of God'?

Istari,
I think that these two interpretations give a clearer sense of the verse and then also what Barnes says, but I'm not sure:

Young's Literal Translation
'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness — the faithful and true — the chief of the creation of God;

New International Version (©1984)
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

Barnes Notes say:
…The third signification, therefore, remains, that he is “the beginning of the creation of God,” in the sense that he is the head or prince of the creation; that is, that he presides over it so far as the purposes of redemption are to be accomplished, and so far as is necessary for those purposes. This is:

(1) in accordance with the meaning of the word, Luke 12:11; Luke 20:20, et al. ut supra; and,

(2) in accordance with the uniform statements respecting the Redeemer, that “all power is given unto him in heaven and in earth” Matthew 28:18; that God has “given him power over all flesh” John 17:2; that all things are “put under his feet” the. John 2:8; 1 Corinthians 15:27); that he is exalted over all things, Ephesians 1:20-22. Having this rank, it was proper that he should speak with authority to the church at Laodicea.

http://bible.cc/revelation/3-14.htm

Kathi

[kerwin]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 11 2011,04:29)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2011,22:05) Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2011,23:10) Note: I used the lexicons at searchgodsword.com to obtain the definition for logos and rhema. Look at the FIRST definition of both words, Kerwin.  “A word uttered by a living voice”.  If you and Paladin want to claim YOU know about some mystical meaning here and there, feel free.  But “logos” and “rhema” BOTH refer to a word uttered by a human voice, and are used interchangeably. Hi Mike I agree! WJ

Worshipping Jesus,

You might want to look at definition number 2 for logus and the comment in it that reads  “A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose in John 1.”

Strong's is a Trinitarian source so I thought you might agree with it.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2011,22:27)

Your response sounds like you are arguing for the sake of arguing

Hi Kerwin,

I disagree with your claims about “logos” versus “rhema”.  Your understanding seems to stem from your eagerness to refute that Jesus is the Word who was with God in the beginning.   Even understood your way, nothing about those definitions would prohibit Jesus from being said Word, so let's just leave it at that for now.  I'm sorry, but I have no interest at this time in analyzing each and every use of “logos” and “rhema”, looking for hidden, secret meanings.

Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2011,22:27)

All the above is a side argument as I am pointing out that you should understand what is written by the Spirit of God and not by personal interpretation of the written letter.

I let this go in the last post you made because you can think about me what you wish, and I can't stop you.  But I believe that not only my understanding, but also my interpretation of the written word of God IS “by the Spirit of God”.

For example, I believe that my understanding and interpretation of “I came down from heaven” comes from how God's Spirit has taught me to understand those words.  

Why would you presume to “correct” me by insinuating that my understanding is NOT of God's Spirit?

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2011,16:29)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2011,22:05) Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2011,23:10) Note: I used the lexicons at searchgodsword.com to obtain the definition for logos and rhema. Look at the FIRST definition of both words, Kerwin.  “A word uttered by a living voice”.  If you and Paladin want to claim YOU know about some mystical meaning here and there, feel free.  But “logos” and “rhema” BOTH refer to a word uttered by a human voice, and are used interchangeably. Hi Mike I agree! WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2011,22:11)

“A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose in John 1.”

So a “divine reason or plan” was WITH God at the time it was God Himself, but then this plan became flesh and dwelled among mankind having the glory of the only begotten from the Father?

A plan became flesh?  A divine reason had the glory of an only begotten son?

This conversation belongs in the pre-existence thread; or in Paladin's thread, don't you think?

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2011,00:54)

Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2011,22:27) Your response sounds like you are arguing for the sake of arguing Hi Kerwin, I disagree with your claims about “logos” versus “rhema”.  Your understanding seems to stem from your eagerness to refute that Jesus is the Word who was with God in the beginning.   Even understood your way, nothing about those definitions would prohibit Jesus from being said Word, so let's just leave it at that for now.  I'm sorry, but I have no interest at this time in analyzing each and every use of “logos” and “rhema”, looking for hidden, secret meanings. Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2011,22:27) All the above is a side argument as I am pointing out that you should understand what is written by the Spirit of God and not by personal interpretation of the written letter. I let this go in the last post you made because you can think about me what you wish, and I can't stop you.  But I believe that not only my understanding, but also my interpretation of the written word of God IS “by the Spirit of God”. For example, I believe that my understanding and interpretation of “I came down from heaven” comes from how God's Spirit has taught me to understand those words.   Why would you presume to “correct” me by insinuating that my understanding is NOT of God's Spirit? peace, mike

You choice of words made it seem to me you were going by the letter and not by the Spirit behind the letter.

Still, since you state you meant the spirit behind the letter then I choose to believe you see it that way.

The Spirt of God is his rhema which makes it a better fit for John 1 than the fact Jesus has the title the logos of God if they are synomyns.   If I am correct and rhema and logos are different words then it weakens the argument John 1 is speaking of the Spirit of God.

The Trinitarian that wrote Strong's do not deny the difference between logos and rhema and yet they still hold logos still supports their understanding.  I have no idea why Paladin would think otherwise.

I admit that in discussing logos and rhema I have been carried off in discussing an off topic issue. I addressed again in order to relieve your concerns about my motives. I also explained my actions in voicing my concerns abourt addressing your own.

I currently see no reason to continue either conversation past this point.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2011,01:01)

Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2011,22:11) “A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose in John 1.” So a “divine reason or plan” was WITH God at the time it was God Himself, but then this plan became flesh and dwelled among mankind having the glory of the only begotten from the Father? A plan became flesh?  A divine reason had the glory of an only begotten son? This conversation belongs in the pre-existence thread; or in Paladin's thread, don't you think?

Trinitarians wrote that in support of their claim John 1:1 is stating Jesus is God who was with God in the Beginning.

[mikeboll64]

Wrote what? You lost me.

[Ed J]

Quote (kerwin @ June 14 2011,16:38)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2011,01:01) Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2011,22:11) “A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose in John 1.” So a “divine reason or plan” was WITH God at the time it was God Himself, but then this plan became flesh and dwelled among mankind having the glory of the only begotten from the Father? A plan became flesh?  A divine reason had the glory of an only begotten son? This conversation belongs in the pre-existence thread; or in Paladin's thread, don't you think? Trinitarians wrote that in support of their claim John 1:1 is stating Jesus is God who was with God in the Beginning.

Hi Kerwin,

It's too bad that John 1:1 is referring the “HolySpirit”,
that was with YHVH in the beginning, but now in us.

2Cor.5:19 To wit, that [YHVH God](HolySpirit) was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing
their trespasses unto them; and hath
committed unto us “The word”(HolySpirit) of reconciliation. (Eph.4:4-6)
Eph.4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord,
one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who
is above all, and through all, and in you all.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

edj
.

Quote

It's too bad that John 1:1 is referring the “HolySpirit”, that was with YHVH in the beginning, but now in us.

JN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

ed ,could you read ?the WORD of God are not Scriptures here it is Christ and the holy spirit his the true will of God ,that Christ had in him all his live with us men
if we are putting Gods will first in our lives then we also have the holy spirit ,but if we do not then it is only our spirit that we have ,with all the darkness that that imply,

Pierre

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 01 2011,13:15)

Quote (t8 @ May 31 2011,17:09) There is one God the Father. He is the true God. Theos as applied to anyone else, (including Jesus) is not meant to be taken as the eternal one true God. Theos has other legitimate uses, just as adam and devil do. But the one true theos is applied to the Father exclusively just as there is one Devil and one Adam. (Yes there is a second one, but only because of failure was that passed to another). No doctrine can change the truth that the Father is the one true God because this truth is eternal, and any opposing doctrine will simply vanish in time as all things related to this world will. t8, How do you know that the one true God, the Father didn't always have within Him, His own Son? Which would make the Son as eternal as the Father, btw. Last night I was reading about the eggs in the ovary of a woman and that all the eggs were there when that woman was born.  Isn't that interesting…how 23 chromosomes of the 46 that make a living being are there as long as the mother existed.  Each of her future children existed, in part, within her as long as she existed.  Truly amazing design! If the Son was ALWAYS within the Father and then brought forth just before creation, then the one true God becomes two distinct persons, both eternally existing and God is not only source but also contains the agent, from everlasting.  This is the way I am understanding how a Son can be eternal theos also, not the eternal Father theos, but the eternal Son theos.   I would really like to see from your response that you understand what I am saying here. An earthly mother does not have a whole offspring within her from her birth but half of what makes up a whole offspring.  The heavenly Father is self-sufficient.  He can have the whole offspring within Him. So, I have no problem with the possibility of an eternal Son. It actually makes wonderful sense and gives understanding to scriptures. Kathi

Yes, The Son existed in the heart to the Father from before the creation to be manifest to the world in His timing. God envisioned the last Adam, the one who would be the express image of His Person, the one through whom He would reconcile the world unto Himself, and the one through whom his plan for this world would be fulfilled from the beginning.

When one begins to build a house, he begins with a plan, and he envisions the end result in his mind and heart from the outset although it is not physically a reality. In the same manner God began the creation of this world envisioning the fulfillment of His plan for humanity through His Only Begotten Son and His Christ. He was not begotten of God until he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.
And so, yes he existed in the heart of the Father from the beginning, but not as a sentient person.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Hi:

I want also to add to have God's divine nature does not make one God, and the devine nature of Jesus was developed as he learned to apply the Word of God in His daily life. He was born an infant just like any other infant except that he was not born of the sperm of man.

This scriptures may help us to understand this:

Quote

Hbr 5:5 ¶ So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. Hbr 5:6 As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

He is God in the sense that he is the “express image of God's person”. In other words, in the spirit he exemplifies God character. God is love. And Jesus as he obebeyed God's Word states: “He who has seen me has seen the Father”. God made man in His own image.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Lightenup]

Hi Marty,
you said:

Quote

And so, yes he existed in the heart of the Father from the beginning, but not as a sentient person.

This is a very big difference between you and many Christians. When you view the scriptures through an eternally sentient person you find a completely different 'Son' than the way you have expressed. An eternally sentient person as the Son is the Lord of lords that took part in creation and is one with the Father who is the God of gods to be united as our ONE Jehovah our God, i.e. the LORD our God.

Here is a post that I made to Mike about who we are to worship:

Quote

It is clear who we are to worship…the Lord our God who is the God of gods (the Father) and the Lord of lords (the Son). Luke 10:25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” Mike, according to Luke 10:27 it is the Lord our God that we worship. And Deut. 10:17 tells us who is the Lord our God: Deut 10:17 “For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe. 2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 3 you shall have no other gods before me. 36“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.” Mark 12:28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” 29“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.e 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’f 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” 32“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions. Whose Son Is the Christ? 35While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christh is the son of David? 36David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”’i 37David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?” The large crowd listened to him with delight. Isn't that cool how the topic in the above passage is about loving the Lord your God from the first and most important commandment and then it goes on about how Jesus is called Lord by David, and in Deuteronomy we are told who the Lord our God is…the God of gods and the Lord of lords. We are told by Jesus that the Father and Him are ONE, and we are told in a few places that Jesus is the Lord of lords, and we are told that for us there is one God, the Father and ONE LORD, Jesus Christ. This is all so awesome how God is showing how this all works together. Rev 17:4 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful John 10:30″I and the Father are one.” 1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Love to you,
Kathi

[942767]

Hi Kathi:

Quote

This is a very big difference between you and many Christians. When you view the scriptures through an eternally sentient person you find a completely different 'Son' than the way you have expressed. An eternally sentient person as the Son is the Lord of lords that took part in creation and is one with the Father who is the God of gods to be united as our ONE Jehovah our God, i.e. the LORD our God.

I pray that God will bring us into unity so that we can teach the Word of God in truth

Jesus stated that we should honor him as we honor the Father, not that we should worship him as God:

Quote

Jhn 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Jhn 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Jhn 5:24 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life

There is only One God whom we worship as God and that is the Father of our Lord and our Father, and I do not see anything that changes that through the scriptures that you have posted, and neither does it show me where Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person. And Jesus is not the creator, God made every thing by him and for him and without him was nothing made that was made. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.(Gensis 1:1)

True worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth:

Quote

Jhn 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jhn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

And this what Jesus told Satan when he was being tempted in the wilderness:

Quote

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

And he made it clear here that he is not God:

Quote

Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

And here:

Quote

17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Lightenup]

Marty,
I agree with you to pray for unity in truth, that is always the goal.

I think that you know a God who is only God of gods. You do not know the God of gods and the Lord of lords who make up Jehovah our God. It is Jehovah our God who has done amazing things, like creation. Read this:

Psalm 136
1 Give thanks to the LORD, for He is good, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 2 Give thanks to the God of gods, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 4 To Him who alone does great wonders, For His lovingkindness is everlasting ; 5 To Him who made the heavens with skill, For His lovingkindness is everlasting ; 6 To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His lovingkindness is everlasting ;

Now, Marty, according to the above Psalm, is the God of gods and the Lord of lords credited with creation? Is Jesus called the Lord of lords? Please answer these two questions.

Thank you,
Kathi

[terraricca]

Kathi

there is no way that you can take scriptures to prove that God the father and Christ are one being ,they are one in will like

God will always be the will in power and the son will always be submissive to it,

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
I never ever said they are one being. I say they are one compound unity. A unity is not a being.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2011,16:41)

Pierre, I never ever said they are one being.  I say they are one compound unity.  A unity is not a being.

Kathi

what is this mean ? compound unity

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
You asked the same question on the worship thread. I know you saw the answer but I will link to it here:

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….st=1970

Kathi

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