Kathy What Do You Mean By Preexisting Sonship?

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 05 2011,01:59)

The Majority of people getting saved? I doubt that. How do you know they are saved? Salvation is something much more than what the church offers.

Hi Dennison

You doubt it but the facts are in opposition to what you doubt. How did you get saved Dennison? When we see people that get saved they are delivered from drugs or alcohol, or porn and their lives are completely changed and they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by the fruit of the Spirit. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits.

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 05 2011,01:59)

Healed? Many people are healed, and are sick again, i wonder why? Feeding the hungry? so what?

So I guess that when those whom Jesus healed and eventually they died then that means the healing miracles were false? Is that right? Just because you may not believe in the healing power of God today doesn’t mean God has changed. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever and to me that means he still heals, delivers, saves and fills men with the Holy Spirit and fire. As far as feeding the hungry and meeting the needs of the poor well Jesus said if you do it to the least of these then you have done it to me. So I think that is a little more important than a “So what” reaction don’t you?

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 05 2011,01:59)

so do Muslims, Jehovah witnesses, Catholics, and so many other religions probably do MORE, than what a typical evangical church does. So WHAT?

Dennison isn’t this what you chide Mike over all the time? Making inferences and generalities without any facts? The fact is the biggest religion in the world today is Christianity and they are the ones doing most of the works of Christ. Do you believe the Muslims and JWs are leading people to Jesus as God?

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 05 2011,01:59)

Its not condemning, im just stating the plain truth that they are unscripatural and have nothing to do with the True Gospel, there is so much more.

It is condemning to make a stereotype of all churches and call them unscriptural especially when it is not possible to prove that claim. I agree that there is no perfect church and there won’t be until Jesus returns. But like the NT churches gathered together in one place so it is today and Jesus said where two or three are “gathered together” there am I in the midst. There will be doctrinal differences until Jesus comes or until we come to the unity of the faith. But Paul exhorts us ”to endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” until we all come to the unity of the faith. Eph 4. That can’t take place without the gifts mentioned in Eph 4 and 1 Cor 12-14. And it surely can’t take place without a “local assembly” or a “local church”.

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 05 2011,01:59)

Its a harlot, a counterfiet.

But that is another unfounded and broad statement. Can you prove this? So does this mean to you that there is no true church today? If there is a true church then show me where they are assembling as the scriptures exhort us to do.

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 05 2011,01:59)

God used the Pharaoh for his Glory,
God rose up nations to destory Israel,
God sent a Whale to eat Jonah,

Okay so how does that apply here? How does that mean that true believers are not supposed to “assemble” under one roof?

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 05 2011,01:59)

What than? is it not possible that God can even speak through a donkey so that his will May be Done?

Then why would you have a problem going into a modern church and hearing the “oracles of God” coming through a Gift of God to his body? Can the hand say without the foot I don’t need you?

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 05 2011,01:59)

Than its safe to say that though many people including myself found refuge within the church by the will of God, only to mold us for something better.

Okay? So it was the “will of God” to go to a church for refuge and change? How does that statement match these words of yours…

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 03 2011,14:17)

Mike, I agree with the whole church thing.
todays churchs are unscriptural

Was it the will of God to send you to an “unscriptural church” for refuge and to mold you?

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 05 2011,01:59)

You only know what is, by what it is not.

So we can only know truth by knowing error? But isn’t it knowing truth that exposes error and not “error that exposes the truth”? Doesn’t light dispel the darkness and not darkness that dispels the light?

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 05 2011,01:59)

You cant know Hot without cold, and cannot know light without darkness. how else would you know what the true Church of Christ is, if you havent been part of the counterfiet gospel?

Was there a false church before Jesus began the first “true church”? Did they have to know what a false church was before they knew what the True Church was, or was it that false churches came afterwards?

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 05 2011,01:59)

The Church is not God, but God can establish his own temple in you very heart that must be circumsized by Christ, so that he may be your God
, and you His people.

Okay but remember scripturally the “Body of Christ” the true church is made up of many members who geographically “gathered together” in one place.

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 05 2011,01:59)

I believe in Congregation my friend, just not in the way you do it. Jesus made it clear that there most be a fellowship of believers, but not what Men have corrupted and manipulated it what it is now.

Ok then tell us where this “True Church” is that you go too so I can check it out?

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 05 2011,01:59)

Its just the plain truth, and I know because I have lived it already, and will continue to live through more trials as I get older.

Ha Ha Dennison, you are younger than my youngest child and I can tell you from my experience of being involved in ministry in at least 10 churches, and also pioneering and Pastoring 2 and visiting many more in my 37 years of ministry that my experience is not at all what you claim.

You have a right to believe as you like but you have not given us any Biblical facts to validate your claim, have you? So when you say things like…

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 03 2011,14:17)

Mike, I agree with the whole church thing.
todays churchs are unscriptural

Can you give us some specifics like the names of the churches you went to, and how long you went there and what it is that is unscriptural?

Kathi and I can give you facts about the Gospel being preached, people getting saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, and maturing and growing in their faith and their relationship with the Lord as well as the physical needs of the people being met whether it is food, clothing or shelter, or the visiting the sick, or the widow and the fatherless which is true religion according to scriptures.

Blessings WJ

June 6, 2011 at 7:26 pm#248052

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ June 06 2011,13:53)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 07 2011,09:28)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2011,17:30)

Mike,
I'll show you where arche' is used with YHVH. First look at the Apostolic Interlinear for Micah 5:2:

Micah 5:2 And you, Bethlehem, of the house of Ephratah, are very few being among thousands of Judah; from out of you to me shall come forth the one being for ruler of Israel; and his goings forth were from the beginning (arche'), from [of days eon].

NASB Micah 5:2
“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.”

I do not understand how you come up with an origin of existence from this? Can you explain?
Kathi

Hi Kathi and Paul

I had a debate with Mike for a while about Micah 5:2 and Ps 2:7 and showed him even the “Twot” disagrees with his Idea that that Micah 5:2 is proof Jesus had a beginning.

TWOT for mowtsa'ah or mosaa

Place from which one comes or to which one goes. Used only twice in very different connections. In 2 Kings 10:27 it means “latrine.” The meaning in Mic 5:2 {H 1] the plural is debated. The translation “origin” (RSV) is unsuitable for the Messianic reference. The meaning of the KJV “going forth” is obscure. The NIV “whose origins are from of old, from ancient times” agrees with the Idea that the ancestry of the expected ruler traces way back to David’s time as well as David’s city. The NEB “roots” are similar.

I finally got tired of going in circles with him.

where is it written in scriptures that men can save himself of sin and dead and be reconciled with God.?

Pierre

Peirre

Where have I even made such a claim? What does your statement have to do with my post other than create a diversion?

June 6, 2011 at 8:38 pm#248060

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 07 2011,13:26)

Quote (terraricca @ June 06 2011,13:53)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 07 2011,09:28)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2011,17:30)

Mike,
I'll show you where arche' is used with YHVH. First look at the Apostolic Interlinear for Micah 5:2:

I do not understand how you come up with an origin of existence from this? Can you explain?
Kathi

Hi Kathi and Paul

I had a debate with Mike for a while about Micah 5:2 and Ps 2:7 and showed him even the “Twot” disagrees with his Idea that that Micah 5:2 is proof Jesus had a beginning.

TWOT for mowtsa'ah or mosaa

I finally got tired of going in circles with him.

where is it written in scriptures that men can save himself of sin and dead and be reconciled with God.?

Pierre

Peirre

Where have I even made such a claim? What does your statement have to do with my post other than create a diversion?

if you answer the question you may find the connection

Pierre

June 6, 2011 at 8:59 pm#248061

Participant

Perre

Go bother someone else!

June 6, 2011 at 9:06 pm#248062

Participant

Preach it Keith…preach it!

Dennison,
You ought to try to find the good in things…it is a much better way to live!
I'm sure that satan would want you bashing churches.
I'm also sure that God would not want you bashing churches.
So you choose who you will serve.

This country was founded on the desire for freedom of religion. Many denominations are a result of that. Before coming to America, one denomination was predominant…Catholicism. So, think of the benefit of many different congregations…all a part of one body. Each congregation has their uniqueness and as long as they exalt the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and trust in God's Word there is great potential. You want to make it about doctrine, try making it about love and a willing heart to serve God and others.

If you are interested in what the Bible says, then start here:

James 5:9
Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.

I love you Keith and Dennison-son.
Kathi

June 6, 2011 at 9:23 pm#248063

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 07 2011,15:06)

Preach it Keith…preach it!

If you are interested in what the Bible says, then start here:

James 5:9
Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.

I love you Keith and Dennison-son.
Kathi

Kathi

Jas 5:7 Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains.
Jas 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near.
Jas 5:9 Don’t grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!
Jas 5:10 Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord.
Jas 5:11 As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.
Jas 5:12 Above all, my brothers, do not swear—not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your “Yes” be yes, and your “No,” no, or you will be condemned.

this is all true but who is the church that James sending his words ?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,

To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations:

Greetings.

in a way he send it to the ones that claim to do Gods will and obey Christ words to be saved,I do not see that the trinity and other false doctrines are part of Christ church,do you ?

where ?

Pierre

June 6, 2011 at 9:25 pm#248064

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2011,16:06)

Preach it Keith…preach it!

Thanks Kathi!

My love back to you and you too “Dennison”.

And you to Peirre and Mike.

And you to t8 and all on HN.

Blessings and Love to you all even if we do disagree on some things.

Keith

June 6, 2011 at 9:30 pm#248065

Participant

all who care

Ro 3:3 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness?
Ro 3:4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
“So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.”
Ro 3:5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)
Ro 3:6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?
Ro 3:7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?”
Ro 3:8 Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is deserved.

No One Is Righteous

Ro 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
Ro 3:10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
Ro 3:11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
Ro 3:12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
Ro 3:13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
Ro 3:14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
Ro 3:15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Ro 3:16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
Ro 3:17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
Ro 3:18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

we all looking to do God s will ,it is not up to us to make the way ,because it is already traced by God and his son Jesus.

so your words ho God is the truth.

Pierre

June 6, 2011 at 9:36 pm#248066

SimplyForgiven

Participant

Hi Kieth,
lol already old man, im going to move these responses to a new thread. this has captured my attention.

at the moment i dont have time, but trust me i will make time to clarify and bring evidence for my claims since my previous post is just one of my many rants.

much Love,

June 6, 2011 at 9:41 pm#248067

Participant

Pierre,
Are you waiting to love others when their doctrine lines up with what you think. I think that is a little backwards. Try loving first and let God take care of the rest. Foster a spirit of understanding within yourself of why people believe certain things. Everyone is at a different place in their walk and we all see things dimly. Love people and seek to understand them, give them a benefit of the doubt and ask God to bless them with His love and truth. Don't condem them…love them…pray for them. Work on your own 'speck.' Be slow to speak and quick to listen…

Love to you,
Kathi

June 6, 2011 at 9:44 pm#248068

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 06 2011,16:36)

Hi Kieth,
lol already old man, im going to move these responses to a new thread. this has captured my attention.

at the moment i dont have time, but trust me i will make time to clarify and bring evidence for my claims since my previous post is just one of my many rants.

much Love,

Hi Dennison

Yea I thought about creating a new thread and I should have.

Love back at you young man, and I look forward to your response and proof that all churches today are unscriptural!

Blessings Keith

June 6, 2011 at 10:08 pm#248070

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2011,20:36)

Ps 90:2 Before the mountains themselves were born,
Or you proceeded to bring forth as with labor pains the earth and the productive land,
Even from time indefinite to time indefinite you are God.

I don't know why you can't see this verse talking about Him being from eternity and to eternity.

Does it SAY “from eternity to eternity”, Kathi? If it doesn't actually SAY that, then why would you think I'd believe it?

June 6, 2011 at 10:12 pm#248072

Blocked

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 05 2011,20:57)

Kathi is right Mike, the same language that is used to describe YHWH's eternality is also applied to Yeshua in Micah 5:2. So although you included it on your little list of prooftexts that supposedly bear out the fact that Yeshua was created, it actually argues the opposite. I've seen others (possibly yourself too) make the same error with “el gibbor” (translated “mighty God”) in Isaiah 9:6, arguing that it denotes a lessor divinity than Almighty God. But “el gibbor” is also used in reference to YHWH – in the very next chapter of Isaiah (10:21) no less!

See above, Paul. The Hebrew words do NOT mean “eternity”, right?

And your “el gibbor” point has been answered many times. You guys act like if Jesus is called “good” and God is called “good”, then Jesus MUST BE God.

So if Jesus, King David and God are all called “good”, are they all God Almighty? Did you not know that Jehovah, Jesus AND OTHERS share many titles and qualities? Why does sharing a title or quality only make one actually BE God Almighty when Jesus is the one in question?

Bye-bye el gibbor “proof text”.

June 6, 2011 at 10:23 pm#248073

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 06 2011,17:08)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2011,20:36)

Ps 90:2 Before the mountains themselves were born,
Or you proceeded to bring forth as with labor pains the earth and the productive land,
Even from time indefinite to time indefinite you are God.

I don't know why you can't see this verse talking about Him being from eternity and to eternity.

Does it SAY “from eternity to eternity”, Kathi? If it doesn't actually SAY that, then why would you think I'd believe it?

Yes, Mike, if you use common sense!

NET ©
Even before the mountains came into existence, 1 or you brought the world into being, 2 you were the eternal God. 3
NIV ©
Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.
NASB ©
Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.
NLT ©
Before the mountains were created, before you made the earth and the world, you are God, without beginning or end.
MSG ©
long before the mountains were born, Long before you brought earth itself to birth, from “once upon a time” to “kingdom come”–you are God.
BBE ©
Before the mountains were made, before you had given birth to the earth and the world, before time was, and for ever, you are God.
NRSV ©
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.
NKJV ©
Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever You had formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

Love to you,
Kathi

June 6, 2011 at 10:25 pm#248074

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 06 2011,09:28)

Hi Kathi and Paul

I had a debate with Mike for a while about Micah 5:2 and Ps 2:7 and showed him even the “Twot” disagrees with his Idea that that Micah 5:2 is proof Jesus had a beginning.

I finally got tired of going in circles with him.

That's not quite the way I remember it, Keith. I remember that I had you pinned down with the fact that Micah 5:4 CLEARLY lists Jesus as someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO his own God. You were fumbling around with the different “explanations” that certain Trinitarian scholars had come up with to make this clear fact disappear from the scriptures. I wouldn't let up on you though, until you finally claimed a family emergency, invited us all to join you on FaceBook, and disappeared for a couple of months.

Yeah, that's really the way it all went down.

June 6, 2011 at 10:28 pm#248075

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 06 2011,15:25)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2011,16:06)

Preach it Keith…preach it!

Thanks Kathi!

My love back to you and you too “Dennison”.

And you to Peirre and Mike.

And you to t8 and all on HN.

Blessings and Love to you all even if we do disagree on some things.

Keith

Ditto to all.

June 6, 2011 at 10:34 pm#248076

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2011,16:23)

Yes, Mike, if you use common sense!

“Common sense” tells me to believe what's written, and not make up my own conclusion or words just because they speak what my ears are aching to hear.

Now…………….back to our discussion. You can argue the word “origin” if you like, but consider this:

From our own point in time, we could rightfully say that Abraham was from “owlam” and his son Isaac was from “owlam”, right?

What part of those two statements would tell our common sense that the “days of antiquity” that Abraham was from must be EARLIER days of antiquity than the days of antiquity that Isaac was from?

I'll give you a minute.

peace,
mike

June 6, 2011 at 11:30 pm#248081

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 07 2011,15:41)

Love to you,
Kathi

Kathi

I do not exlude myself from my quotes in scriptures ,

most of what you have written is a asumption that i do not do those things ,but I always wander if your love for God is equal to the love of your fellow men ?

God is Love but the Judgement belong to Christ with justice.
Isa 32:6 For the fool speaks folly,
his mind is busy with evil:
He practices ungodliness
and spreads error concerning the LORD;
the hungry he leaves empty
and from the thirsty he withholds water.

Mk 12:24 Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?
1Th 2:3 For the appeal we make does not spring from error or impure motives, nor are we trying to trick you.
Jas 5:20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

so do you think i am seeing it backwards ?

Pierre

June 7, 2011 at 4:35 am#248106

Participant

Pierre,
Yes, I do, actually, now that you asked.

June 7, 2011 at 4:45 am#248109