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Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 28 2011,05:50) Christ was under God because He was made under the law of Moses
Hi Jack,Christ is STILL “under God”. He remains a servant to his God, YHVH.
But just look at your own words, “Christ was under God”. Those words clearly tell me that Christ was not “God”, but someone OTHER THAN God who was “under God”.
Trinitarians have a strange mastery of the English language.
And show me ONE scripture that explains how God and Jesus are the same being……………”ontologically”.
peace and love,
mikeHi Mike,
God had them use “Lord” in the Bible for a reason, Lord means “Owner”!
JEHOVAH (The LORD) is “The Owner”, and God's son Jesus (Lord) is “Owner”.
This is not that difficult to understand; but mystery religion complicates the simple!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2011,09:32) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 28 2011,05:50) Christ was under God because He was made under the law of Moses
Hi Jack,Christ is STILL “under God”. He remains a servant to his God, YHVH.
But just look at your own words, “Christ was under God”. Those words clearly tell me that Christ was not “God”, but someone OTHER THAN God who was “under God”.
Trinitarians have a strange mastery of the English language.
And show me ONE scripture that explains how God and Jesus are the same being……………”ontologically”.
peace and love,
mike
Do the Math Mike:1 Despotes + 1 Despotes = Two Despotes
Despotes means “ABSOLUTE ruler”
1 Absolute Ruler + 1 Absolute Ruler = 2 Absolute Rulers
The First Absolute Ruler is One with the Second Absolute Ruler
So the First Absolute ruler + the Second Absolute Ruler = One Unified Absolute Ruler
Jack
i have been reading this debate, and i have a question for the trinitarians here,
why did yahshua say that he could only do what he saw his father doing?
thanks.
Thankful,
Quote Yahshua is the son of God. he is from God, he is God, but not quite God.
What exactly do you believe because in one thread you say one thing
and here another?
You not making sense.
Are you saying that Jesus is the image of the invisible God?you said that he sent someone who is not as bright? as in Jesus or the holy spirit?
because yuo didnt make that clear within your post and i dont want to speculate your reasoning nor assume.clarify
Mike said:
Quote Hi Jack, Christ is STILL “under God”.
Then please make sense of paul's statement that Christ's WILL BE made subject to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:28)Quote 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself also WILL BE subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Note that it is not until Christ is made subject that God will be “all in all.” This means that in the new covenant age Christ is God!You're disobedient Mike and there is a place reserved in the lake of fire just for you. I am serious buddy!
Jack
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2011,10:21) Where is Jesus called our “despotes”?
Don't play stupid Mike! You know very well that Jesus Christ is called “our ONLY Despotes and Kurios” in Jude 4.Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 03 2011,10:16) Mike said: Quote Hi Jack, Christ is STILL “under God”.
Then please make sense of paul's statement that Christ's WILL BE made subject to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:28)Quote 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself also WILL BE subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Note that it is not until Christ is made subject that God will be “all in all.” This means that in the new covenant age Christ is God!You're disobedient Mike and there is a place reserved in the lake of fire just for you. I am serious buddy!
Jack
Poor Roo,So many falsehoods to spread around – so little time!
Jack, don't get angry with ME just because your “trinity proofs” are so weak. 
First of all, Jesus is called the SERVANT OF GOD 4 times in the book of Acts. And all 4 of them refer to Jesus being a servant of God………AFTER he was raised from the dead and given all power and authority by his God, YHVH.
Jesus is right now God's SERVANT at the right hand of his God.
As far as the scripture YOU quoted, really?
Jesus is ruling FOR his God for the time being. That's what it means when he says he's been granted to sit with his Father on His throne for a while. It means Jesus is “running things” FOR his God for a while, just as Joseph “ran things” in Egypt for Pharaoh for a while.Also, I can't even believe you brought that scripture up, let alone your own words concerning it.
You clearly mention Christ as SOMEONE OTHER THAN God. You said when Christ is subjected TO God, then GOD will be all in all. Hmmmm……..who exactly is Christ then? Apparently not God, because Christ WILL subject himself TO God, and that right there tells you he's NOT God. How can someone who IS God subject himself TO God. Jack, can you subject yourself TO yourself? And after the subjecting, then what? If Jesus subjects himself TO God, so that God may be all in all, where does that leave Jesus? How can you say that Jesus is God now, but won't be God forever? God doesn't change, Roo.
This whole trinity concept is absolutely FILLED with nonsense such as this. I'm starting to believe that one has to be a moron to sign up for this absurdity. At the very least, one has to throw the good common sense God gave us to the wind in order to believe this mish-mash of crazy talk.
mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 03 2011,10:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2011,10:21) Where is Jesus called our “despotes”?
Don't play stupid Mike! You know very well that Jesus Christ is called “our ONLY Despotes and Kurios” in Jude 4.Jack
Jude 4 says nothing of the sort.Jude 1:4 KJV
4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.This is just another Titus 2:13, Jack. It's a case of trinitarians trying their best to fudge the words to make Jesus into something more than he himself taught.
I realize that the evidence now points to the word “theos” being added later. So that just means that it says, “denying our only Despotes, AND our kurious Jesus Christ.”
In other words, take the KJV translation and switch “Lord God” out for “Sovereign”, and there you have it.
So is there another scripture that you think calls Jesus our “Despotes”?
mike
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 28 2011,16:48) Hi Mike, God had them use “Lord” in the Bible for a reason, Lord means “Owner”!
JEHOVAH (The LORD) is “The Owner”, and God's son Jesus (Lord) is “Owner”.
This is not that difficult to understand; but mystery religion complicates the simple!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDJyou still not looking at all scriptures,ownership for Christ is limited,
but for God it is forever;1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
1Co 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.I wish you would understand it would make me happy in Christ,
Pierre
Bump for Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 03 2011,10:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2011,10:21) Where is Jesus called our “despotes”?
Don't play stupid Mike! You know very well that Jesus Christ is called “our ONLY Despotes and Kurios” in Jude 4.Jack
Jude 4 says nothing of the sort.Jude 1:4 KJV
4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.This is just another Titus 2:13, Jack. It's a case of trinitarians trying their best to fudge the words to make Jesus into something more than he himself taught.
I realize that the evidence now points to the word “theos” being added later. So that just means that it says, “denying our only Despotes, AND our kurious Jesus Christ.”
In other words, take the KJV translation and switch “Lord God” out for “Sovereign”, and there you have it.
So is there another scripture that you think calls Jesus our “Despotes”?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 02 2011,19:02) In other words, take the KJV translation and switch “Lord God” out for “Sovereign”, and there you have it.
MikeThis is how even the NWT has it…
My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to “our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ. Jude 1:4 NWT
Once again the GSR is in play here also. Jude knew who Jesus is just as Paul knew he was the Rock that followed then in the wilderness.
WJ
Keith,
Are you saying that the way the KJV translated it CANNOT POSSIBLY be the translation – minus the word “God”?
Are you COMPLETELY SURE that the Greek text simply doesn't allow for “denying our only Sovereign, AND the Lord Jesus Christ”?
When you are SURE of this fact, hit me up. Until then, it is abiguous as any kind of “proof text” that Jesus is God.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2011,11:04) Keith, Are you saying that the way the KJV translated it CANNOT POSSIBLY be the translation – minus the word “God”?
Are you COMPLETELY SURE that the Greek text simply doesn't allow for “denying our only Sovereign, AND the Lord Jesus Christ”?
When you are SURE of this fact, hit me up. Until then, it is abiguous as any kind of “proof text” that Jesus is God.
mike
This is the Greek…kai ton monon despothn kai
and the only Master andkurion hmwn Ihsoun Xriston
Lord our Jesus ChristAT Robertson says…
Our only Master and Lord (ton monon despothn kai kurion hmwn). For the force of the one article for one person see on “2Pe 1:1”. For despothn of Christ see 2 Peter 2:1
WJ
Keith,
Read your own words:
the only Master AND our Lord Jesus Christ
Again, do you have any solid evidence that it CAN'T POSSIBLY be the way the KJV translated it? (Minus the word “God” of course, since the oldest mss don't have that word.)
Keith, it is very obvious that AT Robertson and every other trinitarian biased scholar out there WANTS it to be calling Jesus our only “despotes”, and that they further WANT his being called “despotes” to somehow mean he must be God Himself.
But the evidence is not ABUNDANTLY CLEAR for either case. Therefore, you can WANT it to be saying “Jesus is God”, but it really doesn't.
It is merely another “wishful thinking” text that you trinitarians try to pass off as some kind of a real “proof text”.
mike
Ha Ha Mike
It doesn't matter to me what you think. I will take AT Roberstsons word over yours everyday, not to mention the scriptures and the Holy Spirit that testifys that Jesus is My Only Master and Lord and God.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2011,14:33) Keith, Read your own words:
the only Master AND our Lord Jesus Christ
They are not my words, they are the literal text and you left out part of it…“and the only Master and Lord our Jesus Christ“
Jesus said we do well to call him “Master and Lord”, and he also said you can only serve “One Master, how about you? Is he your “Only Master and Lord” or do you serve more than “One Master and Lord”?
WJ
Hi Keith,
I didn't leave anything out. I placed the word “our” in front of Lord, just like the KJV did. I don't have the JW's Greek interlinear in front of me right now, but I assume it says “Lord OF US, Jesus Christ” which we in English put as “OUR Lord, Jesus Christ”. I'll look into it when I get home tomorrow, okay?
And you must be joking about the “Master and Lord” stuff, right? CONTEXT, Keith. Doesn't Paul teach that slaves were to be obedient to their earthly masters? Hmmmm………….but we can only serve ONE master, so how could the slaves that heard Paul's teaching serve their earthly master since they were only to serve one master in heaven?
Come on, Keith. I know you are a smart man, and when I see you spouting insanity like this just to make a trinity point, I don't think you realize that it doesn't HELP your case, but HURTS it. And makes you look mentally slow at the same time.
Besides Keith, if God the Son is your only Master, then God the Father and God the Holy Spirit must not be, right?
Get it? Because YOUR interpretation of Jude 1:4 doesn't say GOD is our only “despotes”, does it? Nope. It says that only JESUS is that. And if Jesus is your ONLY “despotes”, then the Father is NOT.
I can even defeat your illogical reasoning by using the same nonsense back at you.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2011,15:41) And you must be joking about the “Master and Lord” stuff, right? CONTEXT, Keith. Doesn't Paul teach that slaves were to be obedient to their earthly masters? Hmmmm………….but we can only serve ONE master, so how could the slaves that heard Paul's teaching serve their earthly master since they were only to serve one master in heaven?
MikeThere you go again making those carnal comparisons of man and applying them to Jesus as if it is the same thing.
What does “One Lord” or “Only Master” mean to you Mike?
It means that they may have had slaves who had earthly masters but who was their “One Lord” and “One Master”?
Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, “in the sincerity of your heart as to Christ“, not like those who do their work only when someone is watching – as people-pleasers – “but as SLAVES OF CHRIST doing the will of God from the heart“. Eph 6:5
Christians were supposed to obey their masters as unto Christ and not as men pleasers. HMMM slaves unto Christ (not the Father) which is the will of God. So in being slaves to Christ they were doing the will of God.
Can't you see Mike that serving Jesus as our “Only Master and Lord” is the same thing as serving God?
I pray someday you will see that seeing Jesus as God is seeing the visible Image of God!
WJ
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