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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2011,03:05) Hi All Does anyone see the confusion in the above statemens by t8? Why does it seem that the anti Jesus is God crowd seek to diminish Jesus rather than exalt him?
It appears here that satan is greater than Jesus, yet we know that Jesus has all authority and power and all things are in his hands and by him all things consist and are upheld by the Word of his power and that all things are being made subject to him.
Yet t8 says he is not God but satan is the God of this world.
Of course you would say that.- Jesus is not the one true God and scripture teaches this clearly.
- Satan is the God of this age. The world is his and the world is our enemy. Scripture teaches this also.
Jesus is obedient and only does what the Father does, and says what the Father says. Therefore he is not the originator or God of what he says and does. Rather he is the perfect obedient son, who is our example to follow. He even stated that only God was good once when called good.
Jesus has never created anything outside of his Father and as far as I know, Satan is the only other who has done his will completely independent of anyone else. So yes he is the God of this world and Jesus is not the Almighty God. Get use to it or give it up. Both points are easily shown from scripture and if you have a problem with it still, then argue with the ones who wrote scripture. I merely repeat it.
And your pathetic attempt that comparing Jesus is not God with Satan is the God of this evil world, as saying that Satan is greater than Jesus is absolutely wrong and not worthy of any believer.
Your whole argument is just playing with words by rearranging them to make it look like I am saying that Satan is greater than Jesus when in fact you have completely ignored that Jesus does what God does and Satan does what HE wants. How deceptive of you WJ. This is shameful behavior.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 24 2011,19:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2011,03:05) Hi All Does anyone see the confusion in the above statemens by t8? Why does it seem that the anti Jesus is God crowd seek to diminish Jesus rather than exalt him?
It appears here that satan is greater than Jesus, yet we know that Jesus has all authority and power and all things are in his hands and by him all things consist and are upheld by the Word of his power and that all things are being made subject to him.
Yet t8 says he is not God but satan is the God of this world.
Of course you would say that.- Jesus is not the one true God and scripture teaches this clearly.
- Satan is the God of this age. The world is his and the world is our enemy. Scripture teaches this also.
Jesus is obedient and only does what the Father does, and says what the Father says. Therefore he is not the originator or God of what he says and does. Rather he is the perfect obedient son, who is our example to follow. He even stated that only God was good once when called good.
Jesus has never created anything outside of his Father and as far as I know, Satan is the only other who has done his will completely independent of anyone else. So yes he is the God of this world and Jesus is not the Almighty God. Get use to it or give it up. Both points are easily shown from scripture and if you have a problem with it still, then argue with the ones who wrote scripture. I merely repeat it.
And your pathetic attempt that comparing Jesus is not God with Satan is the God of this evil world, as saying that Satan is greater than Jesus is absolutely wrong and not worthy of any believer.
Your whole argument is just playing with words by rearranging them to make it look like I am saying that Satan is greater than Jesus when in fact you have completely ignored that Jesus does what God does and Satan does what HE wants. How deceptive of you WJ. This is shameful behavior.
On the surface, it seems true, that if Satan is the God of this world, how can all authority belong to Jesus? That seems redundant. Sorry for the interruption-Mark“The Father an I are one”,” Whoever has seen me has seen the Father”. The perfect unchangeable spirit resides in both.The angels shout with Joy.Amen
To all! i agree that Hebrew 1:8 and John 1:1 tells us that Jesus is God. However I don't believe that Jesus is equal with Jehovah God His Father.
Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.Yes, it says that they are one, but so are we. By Gods Holy Spirit, that is NOT A PERSON, but rather the ONE SPIRIT of GOD
Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
The Translators were scared to use God's name in vain and so called Jehovah God LORD in all capital letters and Jesus Lord.
God and The Word of God(Jesus) are titles. LORD is Jehovah God and Lord Jesus other name is
Yeshua…Jehovah in Hebrew is Yahweh…I can see the difference in who is greater and above all……JEHOVAH, YAHWEH, ALMIGHTY GOD……
Peace and love Irene
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 24 2011,03:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2011,03:05) Hi All Does anyone see the confusion in the above statements by t8? Why does it seem that the anti Jesus is God crowd seek to diminish Jesus rather than exalt him?
It appears here that satan is greater than Jesus, yet we know that Jesus has all authority and power and all things are in his hands and by him all things consist and are upheld by the Word of his power and that all things are being made subject to him.
Yet t8 says he is not God but satan is the God of this world.
Of course you would say that.
Hi t8Boy you sound upset. Of course I would say what? That “It “APPEARS”” here that satan is greater than Jesus”? I only quoted your own words…
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 22 2011,05:11) Jesus is not God. Quote (t8 @ Jan. 22 2011,05:04) Satan is a God. He is the God of this age. Quote (t8 @ Jan. 22 2011,05:04) Satan is still a God, the God of this age.
All you had to do was clarify what you meant.Quote (t8 @ Jan. 24 2011,03:26) - Jesus is not the one true God and scripture teaches this clearly.
So you say. What is he a false god? I noticed you haven’t finished answering Jacks question on 1 John 5:20.Quote (t8 @ Jan. 24 2011,03:26) - Satan is the God of this age. The world is his and the world is our enemy. Scripture teaches this also.
So Jesus is not telling the truth when he said……”ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH”.Matt 28:18
No the scriptures do not teach satan is “the God” [G] of this world, but rather it teaches he is “the god” [g] of this world which means he is a usurper over those who give him power by not believing in Jesus. Satan has no power over anyone unless they give it too him.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 24 2011,03:26) Jesus is obedient and only does what the Father does, and says what the Father says.
And your point is? The Father does not speak apart from the Son does he? Heb 1:1.Besides at this time as you know the Father has committed all things including “all judgment “ into Jesus hands which means Jesus rules supreme. He has not yet yielded the Kingdom back to the Father so that God may be all in all yet t8. (1 Cor 15:24-28) Shall we set up a debate on how that Jesus has not yet subjected himself under the Father at this time? And of course that doesn’t in any way mean that Jesus will still not be in the Throne of God ruling with the Father as God. It just means that Jesus is not yet subject to the Father. 1 Cor 15:28
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 24 2011,03:26) Therefore he is not the originator or God of what he says and does. Rather he is the perfect obedient son, who is our example to follow. He even stated that only God was good once when called good.
That is not what the scriptures teach. Jesus is no longer the servant Messiah t8, for all is in his hands and he has not subjected himself to the Father yet. Read it yourself. Jesus upholds all things by the word of his power and by him Jesus all things consist and without him nothing came into being. (Heb 1:1 – Col 1:17 – John 1:1-3.) So Jesus is the originator of all things t8, because he took part in the creation of all things. Jesus said he is “The Life” and you must come to him to have life. That means he is our originator of life. Jesus is the “author” and the finisher of our faith so that means he is the “originator” of our faith.Quote (t8 @ Jan. 24 2011,03:26) Jesus has never created anything outside of his Father and as far as I know,
Have you forgotten the Hebrew scriptures that says YHVH “alone”, “By himself” with “none other” created all things, yet the Apostles see Jesus as co-creating all things with the Father?Quote (t8 @ Jan. 24 2011,03:26) Satan is the only other who has done his will completely independent of anyone else.
Ok so does that make him “a God”? Paul also said “there is no God but one”. So who is playing the word games? Satan is a false god, an imposter, who appears as an angel of light and has blinded the minds of them that do not believe. But that does not mean he is ‘a god” no more than “Baal” or the Caesar was a god, except in the hearts and minds of carnal men. The Romans worshipped the Caesar and called him “a god” but did that make him a God?Quote (t8 @ Jan. 24 2011,03:26) So yes he is the God of this world and Jesus is not the Almighty God.
No, once again he is the “god” of this world and no, Jesus is God and he is Almighty! You are arguing with scriptures t8 that says there is “Only One True God” and there is “no God but one”.Quote (t8 @ Jan. 24 2011,03:26) Get use to it or give it up. Both points are easily shown from scripture and if you have a problem with it still, then argue with the ones who wrote scripture. I merely repeat it.
Ha Ha, you are teaching Polytheism and that the Bible teaches there are many gods when the truth is there is “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD” which means all other gods are so
-called gods, false gods, idols and are not gods at all but only in the hearts of men. You are arguing against the scriptures that says there is “no God but one” and that before him no gods were formed and neither shall there be any after him.Quote (t8 @ Jan. 24 2011,03:26) And your pathetic attempt that comparing Jesus is not God with Satan is the God of this evil world, as saying that Satan is greater than Jesus is absolutely wrong and not worthy of any believer.
Ha Ha, your ad hominems are telling. All I did was quote you t8, you said…Quote (t8 @ Jan. 22 2011,05:11) Jesus is not God. Quote (t8 @ Jan. 22 2011,05:04) Satan is a God. He is the God of this age. Quote (t8 @ Jan. 22 2011,05:04) Satan is still a God, the God of this age.
So why do you say satan is a God with a big [G] and Jesus is not God with a big [G]?Quote (t8 @ Jan. 24 2011,03:26) Your whole argument is just playing with words by rearranging them to make it look like I am saying that Satan is greater than Jesus when in fact you have completely ignored that Jesus does what God does and Satan does what HE wants. How deceptive of you WJ. This is shameful behavior.
What is shameful is for you to call me deceptive and shameful when all I did was list them in the order you had quoted them. And simply said… It “APPEARS”” here that satan is greater than Jesus”.Instead of throwing a bunch of ad hominems at me you should have just clarified your points. And you didn’t answer my question which was your chance to clarify your points. But I will ask you again…
Tell us t8, If to you satan is the God of this world then who is Jesus the God of?
Blessings WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2011,14:36) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 22 2011,09:09) WJ said to t8: Quote The qualitative thing doesn't help you t8 since Jesus is the radiance of the Fathers Glory, the essence of his person, and the visible image of the invisible God.
Yes Keith! As the RADIANCE of God's glory Jesus IS God touching people as the radiance of the sun IS the sun touching things.Radiance of God = God
Jack
OF God, OF God, OF God.Come on Jack. For one to have the radiance OF someone else, then he can't possibly BE that “someone else”.
For one to be the exact representation OF someone else, then he can't possibly BE that “someone else”.
Etc, etc, etc.
mike
I did not say that Jesus was the Father did I? I said He was God because He is the radiance of the Father.You do not comprehend essence Mike. That which radiates from something is the SAME SUBSTANCE as that from which it radiates.
Hebrews 1 says that Christ is the RADIANCE of the Father's glory. So He would be substantively the same though distinct.
It's not hard to understand Mike.
Jack
t8 said:
Quote Jesus is not the one true God and scripture teaches this clearly.
Scripture makes a functional distinction between Christ and God but never does it make an ontological distinction.KJ
Keith said:
Quote Tell us t8, If to you satan is the God of this world then who is Jesus the God of?
You ask a fair question Keith. The 'world' is the unbelieving world. So if satan is the god of the unbelieving world, then Jesus must be the God of believers.Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 25 2011,06:13) Hebrews 1 says that Christ is the RADIANCE of the Father's glory. So He would be substantively the same though distinct.
Hi Jack,I've already answered you about this, but you didn't respond.
Hebrews 1 says “GOD”, not “THE FATHER”. I told you that if it said Jesus was the exact representation of “THE FATHER”, then you would have a leg to stand on, because then Jesus could be God, but just not THE FATHER.
But that's not what the scripture states, so there goes your leg to stand on. Hebrews 1 says GOD, not FATHER. And if Jesus is the representation OF God, then he can't possibly BE God.
Unless you can show me a circumstance in the history of the world where someone is said to be a representation of someone, but both “someones” are the same being. Can you?
mike
To Keith, Jack, Dennison, Mark, and any other “Jesus is God” believer out there:
Who SPECIFICALLY do Jesus (John 17:3) and Paul (1 Cor 8:6) say our “ONLY TRUE GOD” is?
Hint: It is a TWO WORD ANSWER, so ONLY TWO WORDS are needed to answer this question.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 25 2011,06:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2011,14:36) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 22 2011,09:09) WJ said to t8: Quote The qualitative thing doesn't help you t8 since Jesus is the radiance of the Fathers Glory, the essence of his person, and the visible image of the invisible God.
Yes Keith! As the RADIANCE of God's glory Jesus IS God touching people as the radiance of the sun IS the sun touching things.Radiance of God = God
Jack
OF God, OF God, OF God.Come on Jack. For one to have the radiance OF someone else, then he can't possibly BE that “someone else”.
For one to be the exact representation OF someone else, then he can't possibly BE that “someone else”.
Etc, etc, etc.
mike
I did not say that Jesus was the Father did I? I said He was God because He is the radiance of the Father.You do not comprehend essence Mike. That which radiates from something is the SAME SUBSTANCE as that from which it radiates.
Hebrews 1 says that Christ is the RADIANCE of the Father's glory. So He would be substantively the same though distinct.
It's not hard to understand Mike.
Jack
jackjackwhen one is filled with the spirit do they not radiate, have you ever experienced this?
you could radiate jack, and the spirit will shine from you.
love to see the stirring in you jack, the anointing is huge.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2011,21:13) To Keith, Jack, Dennison, Mark, and any other “Jesus is God” believer out there: Who SPECIFICALLY do Jesus (John 17:3) and Paul (1 Cor 8:6) say our “ONLY TRUE GOD” is?
Hint: It is a TWO WORD ANSWER, so ONLY TWO WORDS are needed to answer this question.
peace and love,
mike
MikeThe Father. Your point is?
Who does the scriptures say our only master and Lord is?
It is A “ONE WORD” ANSWER so ONLY “ONE WORD” is needed to answer the quesiton.
Deut 6:4 – 1 Cor 8:6 – Jude 1:4, 5
How many Lords and Masters do you have Mike?
A. 1 Lord and 1 Master
B. 2 Lords and 2 Masters
C. Many Lords and Many Masters
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 26 2011,07:11) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2011,21:13) To Keith, Jack, Dennison, Mark, and any other “Jesus is God” believer out there: Who SPECIFICALLY do Jesus (John 17:3) and Paul (1 Cor 8:6) say our “ONLY TRUE GOD” is?
Hint: It is a TWO WORD ANSWER, so ONLY TWO WORDS are needed to answer this question.
peace and love,
mike
MikeThe Father. Your point is?
Who does the scriptures say our only master and Lord is?
It is A “ONE WORD” ANSWER so ONLY “ONE WORD” is needed to answer the quesiton.
Deut 6:4 – 1 Cor 8:6 – Jude 1:4, 5
How many Lords and Masters do you have Mike?
A. 1 Lord and 1 Master
B. 2 Lords and 2 Masters
C. Many Lords and Many Masters
WJ
And in whose name does the apostle John instruct us to believe in and have confidence in when praying? Answer: The Son of God.Quote 13I write(A) these things to you who(B) believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 14And this is© the confidence that we have toward him, that(D) if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him. And who does the apostle John say is “the true God and eternal life”? Answer: Jesus Christ.
Quote 20And we know that the Son of God has come and(A) has given us understanding, so that we may know(B) him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and© eternal life. Who says that Christ is NOT God? Answer: No one!
KJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 26 2011,07:11) Who does the scriptures say our only master and Lord is? It is A “ONE WORD” ANSWER so ONLY “ONE WORD” is needed to answer the quesiton.
Deut 6:4 – 1 Cor 8:6 – Jude 1:4, 5
Hi Keith,I don't get your point.
Deut 6:4
“Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”Jude 1:4
For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.The only one I can see you questioning is the last one because since it bothers you that scripture clearly says the Father is our only true God, you like to say that the Father then can no longer be our Lord, since Jesus is our only Lord.
But 8:6 merely puts God and Jesus in order. One is GOD Almighty, who is above everyone. And the other is our Lord, whom God Almighty appointed AS our Lord.
So in other words, Paul is saying that at the top of the food chain is God. Then next is Christ. But if you doubt this, read:
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.Keith, WHO is the head of Christ? Does it say “the Father”? Nope. It says GOD is the head of Christ. As in Christ is NOT God because the One Being of God is the head of the one being of Christ.
mike
hello, to all.
hmm. the word trinity.
to me, there are three, there is God the father, there is God the son, and there is God the holy spirit. there are no others who are higher.
we are human, animals are animals, angels are angels, there is only one true God and with that one true God is also the son and also the holy spirit. so though there are three, it still doesnt make Yahshua God the father, because the father is higher than the son.
so God is God, there is no other. Gods name, i am, YHVH, the God of all, the creator of all, the owner of all.
Yahshua is the son of God. he is from God, he is God, but not quite God. He is under God the father.
he is the son, the servant, the heir, the saviour,as it says somewhere, God from God, light from light, or,
as a king sends his son, who is also a king, so sent he him, as God he sent him; as men he sent him; as savior he sent him.if we could see God we would die, so God sends us one who is not quite so bright, but close enough (if you have seen me you have seen the father).
the holy spirit is here today, the holy spirit had to be sent, the holy spirit was given to the son here on earth without measure. and was afterwards poured out on others.
Yahshua is the king, the lord, God, to us. but he is under God the father. who is God of all. Yahshua was sent to reveal the father and to show us what to do, how to live, he came to teach us, he is the way the truth and the life, no-one comes to the father but through him. we are supposed to worship the father in spirit and in truth, the spirit is God and the truth is Yahshua. he came to reveal to the entire world, the father.let me rephrase that last piece, 'we are supposed to worship the father in spirit and in truth, the spirit is the holy spirit and the truth is Yahshua.' maybe ?
God bless. shinar.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 25 2011,22:52) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 26 2011,07:11) Who does the scriptures say our only master and Lord is? It is A “ONE WORD” ANSWER so ONLY “ONE WORD” is needed to answer the quesiton.
Deut 6:4 – 1 Cor 8:6 – Jude 1:4, 5
Hi Keith,I don't get your point.
Deut 6:4
“Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”Jude 1:4
For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.The only one I can see you questioning is the last one because since it bothers you that scripture clearly says the Father is our only true God, you like to say that the Father then can no longer be our Lord, since Jesus is our only Lord.
But 8:6 merely puts God and Jesus in order. One is GOD Almighty, who is above everyone. And the other is our Lord, whom God Almighty appointed AS our Lord.
So in other words, Paul is saying that at the top of the food chain is God. Then next is Christ. But if you doubt this, read:
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.Keith, WHO is the head of Christ? Does it say “the Father”? Nope. It says GOD is the head of Christ. As in Christ is NOT God because the One Being of God is the head of the one being of Christ.
mike
HA HA MikeSee how you do? You require everyone to give a direct answer to your questions but you didn't answer mine but only came back with more questions of your own..
Once again…
Who does the scriptures say our only master and Lord is?
It is A “ONE WORD” ANSWER so ONLY “ONE WORD” is needed to answer the quesiton.
WJ
Mike said to keith:
Quote Keith, WHO is the head of Christ? Does it say “the Father”? Nope. It says GOD is the head of Christ. As in Christ is NOT God because the One Being of God is the head of the one being of Christ.
Get out of the old covenant Mike! In that context Paul also said that the man was the head of the woman. Yet the woman was still mankind. Right? The woman was not ontologically different from the man. Right? But under the law Moses the woman was functionally under the man though she was no different ontologically. Christ was under God because He was made under the law of Moses.The woman was under the man because she was under Moses.Now guess what Mike? Moses does not apply today because we are no longer under the old covenant. We are under the new covenant.
So Christ is no more under God now than the woman is under the man.
Christ is called our “only DESPOTES” (Jude). The Father is also called “DESPOTES” (Acts 4). The word “despotes” means ABSOLUTE RULER.” Do the math Mikey. They're equal.
Jack
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 28 2011,04:43) Who does the scriptures say our only master and Lord is? It is A “ONE WORD” ANSWER so ONLY “ONE WORD” is needed to answer the quesiton.
Only master? God, according to Jude 1:4.Only Lord? Jesus Christ, the Son of our ONLY GOD, the Father – according to 1 Cor 8:6.
Get it Keith? Only ONE of them is GOD. The other is NOT GOD, but distinguished as someone OTHER THAN our “one God”.
Why do you think Paul DISTINGUISHES one from the other?
mike
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