John 8:25

[barley]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 04 2011,14:05)

Mike, I just showed you. John 8:24 That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.” “I AM” needs to be on your list That is what you are asking for, one verse that shows His equality to God. Kathi

But “I am ” too.

I must be God.

If you say that barley is being a fool for thinking that by saying “I am”  makes me God.

Look in the mirror and see.

are you who you say you are?

a. no, I am not who I say who I am

b.  I am.

c. or I am who I say who I am.

if you are not a liar and deceitful you can correctly chose “b” or “c” without error.

Did answering with “b” means you are claiming to be God?

According to your logic, yes you are.

I am sure you can think more clearly than that.

Am I barley?

I am , I am I am,  thus I am God the trinity!

What possible reason would you doubt me?

John 14:12 , if Jesus is God, then God just said that I can do the same works as God himself and not only so but greater works than God.

So can you.  So since you do believe that JC is God, you start.,

Do a work equal to God's works.

Then do one greater than what God has done.

Let me suggest Genesis 1:1 for starters

Create a heavens and the eatth equal to the one God created. but do it before God did it. that would be greater, and do a better one than the one God created.

Then I will believe you.  

Since you can do works equal to God John 14:12 you are equal to God.

You must be God, oops, it is no longer a trinity but a fournity.

You forgot to add yourself.

so 1+1+1+1=1  or if you prefer,  1*1*1*1 = 1  

I would love to hear you explain your self out the dilemma you “created” for yourself.

Jesus is God?  Never was, never will be.

Jesus is not “God the son” but the son of God.

Am I barley?

I am

[Lightenup]

So barley,
I was wondering…could you say this:
“Before my grandfather was born, I AM?”

didn't think so.

[barley]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Sep. 05 2011,08:44)

Mikeboll wrote: Quote I've gone through each verse in John up to the point where Jesus said this.  I've made a list of the things Jesus had claimed to be up until that point.  I found no direct words of Jesus where he had claimed to be God Almighty, or equal to Him. That's because He was God in the form of a servant (Philippians 2). A servant would not go around claiming He is God. And His becoming a servant would not change the fact that He is God. KJ

That is  bit of a stretch.

You use your opinion to prove your own opinion.

That is not sound logic.

Philippians 2:5-9

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Since I am supposed to let this mind be in me which was also in Christ Jesus,

Since you say that Jesus was God and knew it, so I should think this about myself.  So, I command you to stop your hideous idolatry and quit calling Jesus Christ the son of God, God.

Since you say Jesus is God and Jesus/God says his believers can do the same works that He did and greater.  John 14:12 ,

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

you show me that you actually believe that by doing a greater work than Genesis 1:1

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

So since God obeyed God even unto death, God highly exalted God.

And God gave God a name above all other names.

Doesn't God already have a name above all names?  Why would he give another God a name above all other names?

Do you ever stop and think about what kind of mess the trinity is?

Don't you eve stop and think about how your “Jesus is God' doctrine turns God's perfect words into a mess of total confusion?

God still loves you.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 19 2011,02:42)

You're doing a great job in this thread Kathi. I agree with you, many times Yeshua applied the “I AM” title to Himself and the significance was not lost on his listeners (e.g. John 8:59). The important point, which seems to escape t8 every time, is when He applies “ego eimi” to Himself it is unpredicated. So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. (NASB) The translators of some of the more popular versions added the italicised “He” in order to make it more palatable in English. They shouldn't have, it strips the phrase of all it's intended impact. The Youngs literal version and Wickliffe do a better job. Jesus, therefore, said to them, `When ye may lift up the Son of Man then ye will know that I am [he][; and of myself I do nothing, but according as my Father did teach me, these things I speak, (Youngs) Therefore Jesus said to them, When ye have araised man's Son, then ye shall know, that I am, and of myself I do nothing; but as my Father taught me, I speak these things. (Wickliffe) Kathi – a great article for your edification http://vintage.aomin.org/EGO.html

Thanks Paul,
It is always nice when you show up

The article is a good one and I will have to look into those Isaiah passages.

I would like to see these guys answer to this question:
Could they say 'I am' after saying “before my grandfather was born, (I am).”

They wouldn't even say “I am” after saying something like, “before my child was born, I am.”

Even though they obviously existed before their child, they would not finish that statement with “I am.”

That should be a wake up call of sorts to them.

There are a few instances when ego eimi really stood out as not exactly fitting in the normal pattern of speech and those are the verses that should be addressed here, not 'are you Kathi?' That really is a pointless argument, imo.

Love to you,
Kathi

[barley]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2011,07:00)

So barley, I was wondering…could you say this: “Before my grandfather was born, I AM?” didn't think so.

Are you referring to, Before Abraham was, I am?

Yes, I could say,

Before Abraham was, Iam.

Abraham was, he is dead, the dead do not serve God, but I am, I am alive. I can do more alive than Abraham can do dead. Even if all I do is quote “Jesus wept” that is more than what Abe can do being dead.

However, Since God chose me before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4  

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

and I have yet to see that said about Abraham, I can say as far as God's planning goes, yes I was in God's plan before Abe was.  And so was every one that has believed on the name that is above all names by doing Romans 10:9-10

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Jesus is first mentioned in Genesis 3:15, He was before Abe,  

Genesis 3:15 does not mention Abe, it speaks of the serpent and of the seed of the woman, Jesus Christ.  

The serpent was also before Abe.

So the serpent is God?

You need to stop and think, really think, for maybe the first time in your life.

God's word is truth and God has his priorities, Jesus Christ is the man who redeemed man, not Abe.

If my grandfather was not a believer, then yes, I can say that. For God knew me and chose me before the foundations of the world.

am I barley?

I am

[barley]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 13 2011,10:59)

And what does the name 'Jesus' mean…Jehovah our Righteousness.

And God would not name his only begotten son by his own name?

Did you give your children a different last name than your own?

May be you gave them the last name “lizard”?

or the name of your first boyfriend? To honor his name?

why is common sense and the trinity always incompatible?

scripture and common sense is always compatible,.

barley

[Lightenup]

Clearly barley,
You have no grasp on the active voice of the Greek words. Learn about it and then learn how you actually have to be existing before you can say 'I am' in the active voice.

Also, Abraham lives…
Let scripture speak:

26“But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob’? 27“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken.”

[Lightenup]

Quote (barley @ Sep. 19 2011,15:28)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 13 2011,10:59) And what does the name 'Jesus' mean…Jehovah our Righteousness. And God would not name his only begotten son by his own name? Did you give your children a different last name than your own? May be you gave them the last name “lizard”? or the name of your first boyfriend? To honor his name? why is common sense and the trinity always incompatible? scripture and common sense is always compatible,. barley

Are you trying to say that there are two with the name Jehovah. I agree. One Jehovah as the Father, one Jehovah as the Son and Jehovah in the fullest sense is the name of their unity.

See my signature

[barley]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2011,12:01)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 12 2011,17:59) And what does the name 'Jesus' mean…Jehovah our Righteousness. Well, “Jesus” is the English way to say “Iesous”.   And “Iesous” is the Greek way to say “Joshua”.   And “Joshua” is the Hebrew way to say “Jehovah is our Righteousness”. Now, is EVERYONE in the scriptures with the name Jesus or Joshua actually God Almighty, Kathi?  Or is it just this one “Jehovah is our Righteousness” that also happens to be God Almighty Himself?

Mike,

Good point, if I may expand upon your sound logic.

Most names in the OT have the name of God as part of the meaning.

Elijah, Elisha, Jeremiah, etc. Because God or El is part of the meaning of their name, does that mean they are God?

barley

[barley]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 13 2011,11:03)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 12 2011,18:49) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 11 2011,22:08) Mike, It appears by your last comment that you did not read this.  Jehovah and I AM of Exodus 3:14 are different Hebrew words. I read it.  I just don't know what you're trying to tell me with it. Isn't it your contention that the Name God gave to Moses equals the words “I AM”?  And that Jesus was calling himself by that name in 8:24 and 8:58? Yes Mike, the name that God gave Moses was “I AM” and that is the name that Jesus reveals Himself as in the NT.  If you want to make substitutions, often Lord in the NT can be substituted with Jehovah, or YHVH, but in a few verses, I AM should only be I AM. Kathi

Don't forget that in Exodus 7:1-2  God says Moses is a god.

1And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

2Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.

since Moses is a god, But only God is the true God, is then Moses a false god? Even though God said it to Moses?

You want to argue with God on that one?

Mike's point is clear, since God is known by many names, Jehohah, El. adonai, Elohim, logically, though not Biblically accurately, we could substitute one name for the other without confusion 'bout who we are talking about.

Since Joshua is the same name as Jesus could we not also say that Joshua is God also?

barley

[barley]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2011,07:30)

Clearly barley, You have no grasp on the active voice of the Greek words.  Learn about it and then learn how you actually have to be existing before you can say 'I am' in the active voice. Also, Abraham lives… Let scripture speak: 26“But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob’? 27“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken.”

Since I do not have a grasp of all that Greek, ” I am”

Since you have no grasp of practical Biblical common sense, “you are not”

barley

[Lightenup]

barley,
Let me know when you want to have a respectful conversation, until then I am going to choose to pass…sorry. I have no time for this type of behavior.

[shimmer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2011,08:33)

Are you trying to say that there are two with the name Jehovah.  I agree.  One Jehovah as the Father, one Jehovah as the Son and Jehovah in the fullest sense is the name of their unity. See my signature

Kathi,
So according to your signature, when you go to Church, you don't sing to Jesus, but changed the name to Jehovah is this correct? So Jesus is no longer Jesus but is Jehovah? What name do you use?

[Lightenup]

Shimmer,
I follow the words on the overhead. God knows the heart…they have shown us many different names that apply to them.

[barley]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2011,07:00)

So barley, I was wondering…could you say this: “Before my grandfather was born, I AM?” didn't think so.

So create a greater heavens and earth than God did!

You first, since you believe Jesus is God.

Prove it!

Show me what you believe by your works, not by your words.  

James 2:17-26

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

You first.

Barley

[barley]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2011,07:51)

barley, Let me know when you want to have a respectful conversation, until then I am going to choose to pass…sorry.  I have no time for this type of behavior.

Did I get you in a corner?

Don't you have an answer from scripture?

Never encountered a believer before?

When you show respect for scripture, then I will take you seriously.

barley

[barley]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2011,07:30)

Clearly barley, You have no grasp on the active voice of the Greek words.  Learn about it and then learn how you actually have to be existing before you can say 'I am' in the active voice. Also, Abraham lives… Let scripture speak: 26“But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob’? 27“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken.”

Again, as in your belief of the trinity you avoid context.

Quote

Also, Abraham lives… Let scripture speak: 26“But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob’? 27“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken.”

Matthew 22:

23The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

24Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

25Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:

26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.

27And last of all the woman died also.

28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

33And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

What is  the context?

What was the point of the Sadducees question?

How many times does the word “resurrection” appear in this passage.

God is God of the living because of the resurrection.

Abe is dead until the resurrection.

Isaac is dead until the resurrection.

Jacob is dead until the resurrection.

(Resurrection meaning resurrection from the dead)  Just so you know.

If they are now alive, then what purpose does the resurrection serve?

Oh, sure, to reunite their dust with their heavenly bodies?

Please.

barley

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 20 2011,06:18)

Do you know what a predicate is t8?

Yes Is.

If Jesus says “I am the bread of life”, then the I am is not meant to be taken as the I AM in the Old Testament.

If someone says, “Are you Jesus of Nazareth and Jesus says, “I am”, that too is not to be confused with I AM of the Old Testament.

You are confused on this Is because your bias will always steer to you to defend the false doctrine of the Trinity and consequently you make a mess of interpreting many scriptures because of this one thing.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 20 2011,06:39)

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 19 2011,16:05) The I am false doctrine is easily exposed. Hi T8,        I AM is the false god of religion. That false doctrine is easily exposed, because  'I AM'  cannot be translated into Hebrew to mean God, YHVH, or anything for that matter, HEBREW HAS NO SUCH CONSTRUCT! (Link) אֶהְיֶה means “I WILL” not 'I AM'! Mark 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I AM; and shall deceive many. Your brother in Christ, Jesus. Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Thanks Ed.

Yes you are right.

There are many deceivers and there will be many to come.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2011,22:11)

Actually, if you feel the need to substitute I AM for the Hebrew word, you would use 'eh yeh.  His name is 'eh yeh according to Exodus 3:14. That would look like this: John 8:28 So Jesus told them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that 'eh yeh, and that I do nothing on my own authority. Instead, I speak only what the Father has taught me. But what is the point of switching out the English words for the Hebrew???  Is that all you got?

Why not look up the meaning of “'eh yeh”, Kathi. According to Strong, it means ” hayah: to fall out, come to pass, become, be”. And the NASB word usage has only 13 “am” compared to 221 “become”. Kangaroo Jack, the NWT, and I have it right, Kathi. The word means “I WILL BE”, not “I AM”.

So, point # 1 of “that's all I got” is that YOU can't even be sure that YHWH means “I AM” in the first place.

Point #2: Use whatever meaning you want. If 8:58 is a reference to God at all, it is definitely not Jesus saying HE IS God. Here are some examples:

Before Abraham existed JEHOVAH!
Before Abraham existed YAHWEH!
Before Abraham existed I AM!
Before Abraham existed I WILL BE!
Before Abraham existed YHWH!
Before Abraham existed GOD!
Before Abraham existed LORD MOST HIGH!

Are you blind, Kathi? Can you not see that no matter which words you use, it NEVER ends up with Jesus saying HE WAS any of these things. If it is truly a reference to Jehovah, then it is merely a matter of Jesus stating the name of Jehovah. He is not saying anything ABOUT Jehovah. He is not claiming to BE, or HAVE BEEN Jehovah. He would be simply throwing out the name “Jehovah” in the middle of a sentence for no apparent reason, making the statement senseless. There is no way you can HONESTLY imagine Jesus to be saying, “before Abraham existed, I WAS I AM. Can you not see this?

Point #3: Why would Jesus at one point claim to actually BE Jehovah, and at another time protest an accusation of blasphemy by stating that he merely claimed to be THE SON OF God? If he was Jehovah, he could have never comitted blasphemy in the first place. But instead, he professed his innocence of committing this sin. Do you see that, Kathi? Jesus admitted that he was capable of committing blasphemy against God, but insisted he did not do it.

Now, you asked me, “Is that all you got?”. Well, what exactly do YOU have? The fact that Jesus uttered the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language? Oh, that, and your imagination causing you to invent things into the scriptures that aren't even close to being there.

[Author]

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