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Hi All,
John 8:24-25
“If you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”“Who are you?” they asked. “Just what I have been claiming all along,” Jesus replied.
And what Jesus had been claiming all along is exactly what I'd like to discuss in this thread. I pose this as a challenge to any “Jesus is God” people out there:
Using ONLY the words of Jesus himself, as DIRECTLY quoted by John up until chapter 8, verse 24, can you show us where JESUS HIMSELF ever claimed to be God, or equal to Him?
These are the claims of Jesus up to 8:25:
1. Is the Son OF God. (3:16)
2. Was given BY God. (3:16)
3. Was sent BY God. (3:17)
4. Has had all things placed in his hands BY God. (3:35)
5. Is a prophet OF God. (4:44)
6. Can do nothing on his own. (5:19)
7. Was granted BY God to have life in him. (5:26)
8. Has been given authority to judge BY God. (5:27)
9. God is someone OTHER THAN Jesus, who testifies in Jesus' favor. (5:32)
10. The Jews had never seen God or heard His voice, although they clearly saw and heard the voice of the one God sent. (5:37)
11. Came in the name OF his God. (5:43)
12. Gives thanks TO his God. (6:11)
13. Has been given the seal of approval BY his God. (6:27)
14. Does the work OF his God, as the one his God has SENT. (6:29)
15. Is the bread OF God. (6:33)
16. Has been given disciples BY God. (6:37)
17. Does the will OF his God. (6:38)
18. Is FROM God, whom no one has ever seen. (6:46)
19. Lives BECAUSE OF his God. (6:57)
20. Says his teachings are not his own, but come FROM the God who sent him. (7:16-17)
21. Is FROM the One who SENT him. (7:28-29)
22. Will go TO the God who SENT him. (7:33)
23. Jesus is one, and the God who SENT him is his OTHER witness. (8:18)I await that ONE SINGLE direct quote of Jesus where he himself claims to BE the God who sent him, or even equal TO that God.
peace,
mikeJohn 8:24 is mistranslated. Earlier manuscripts do not have the added words. You knew that probably though didn't you.
John 8:24 That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”
You are interested in truth, right? Choose newer translations over the KJV when you see that they have more words than the other translations. Check the Greek. It doesn't say 'I am He,' either. It just says “I AM.”
Kathi
Hi Kathi,
Thanks for coming to my party.
The title of the thread is “John 8:25“, right? Instead of diverting the discussion, why not address the fact that Jesus said he was just who he'd been claiming to be all along?I've gone through each verse in John up to the point where Jesus said this. I've made a list of the things Jesus had claimed to be up until that point. I found no direct words of Jesus where he had claimed to be God Almighty, or equal to Him.
Your mission is to find those DIRECT words of Jesus where he DID claim to be God Almighty or equal to Him. If you are unable to find them in the first 8 chapters of John's gospel, we can expand the search parameters. Because surely, somewhere in scripture, “God the Son” PERSONALLY let us know he was “God the Son”, right? But first, just deal with the first 8 chapters of John. If you can find an instance where Jesus claimed to be God, then enlighten me. If not, then be honest enough to admit that you couldn't find one, and THEN we'll expand the search to eventually include every direct quote of Jesus in the entire Bible.
Ready, set, GO!
peace,
mikeMike,
I just showed you.John 8:24 That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”
“I AM” needs to be on your list
That is what you are asking for, one verse that shows His equality to God.
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Sep. 04 2011,02:01) John 8:24 is mistranslated. Earlier manuscripts do not have the added words. You knew that probably though didn't you. John 8:24 That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”
You are interested in truth, right? Choose newer translations over the KJV when you see that they have more words than the other translations. Check the Greek. It doesn't say 'I am He,' either. It just says “I AM.”
Kathi
Correct. Well expounded Kathi.Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 03 2011,23:32) Thanks Paul! Glory to God, Paul's back
Which ONE of your TWO Almighty Gods are you giving the glory to this time, Kathi? I wonder if Paul realizes that you openly acknowledge your belief in and worship of TWO completely separate Almighty Gods, Kathi.I also wonder if, after learning about this, he will continue to support you.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 03 2011,21:05) Mike,
I just showed you.John 8:24 That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”
“I AM” needs to be on your list
That is what you are asking for, one verse that shows His equality to God.
Kathi
Okay, let's deal with this the same way I deal with 8:58:It is your assertion that when Jesus utters the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language, he is secretly telling us he is Jehovah God, right? You are taking the “I AM” to mean “Jehovah”, right? Let's spell it out your way:
John 8:24
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that JEHOVAH, you will die in your sins.”And here's John 8:58,
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, JEHOVAH!”Do you see how they make no sense? In order for your assertion to be realized, there need to be more words. For example, Jesus would have to say, “before Abraham was born, I WAS I AM”. Or “unless you believe that I AM I AM, you will die in your sins”.
Your Paul-commended point is not a point at all. So, will you PLEASE now start to address the actual exercise for which this thread was designed? Or is this charade your way of saying that you've poured over the first 8 chapters of John's gospel, and couldn't find even one direct quote from Jesus where he claimed to be God Almighty or equal to Him?
Because if that is the case, we will move on to the rest of John, and see if there are any such cases. Paul, you're also invited, since we seem to have chased Keith and Jack into hiding.
peace,
mikeMike! The Jews did not want to believe that Jesus was who He said He was… and therefore because of it, they are to die in their sins…They wanted to kill Him, because of what He claimed He was….
New King James Version (NKJV)
Jhn 8:24 “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am [He], you will die in your sins.”New Living Translation (NLT)
Jhn 8:24 That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM who I claim to be, [fn] you will die in your sins.”English Standard Version (ESV)
Jhn 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”These verses do not mean that Jesus is the Great I AM, ….We have to ask our self what did Jesus claim to be?
That is all I am going to say, since you want to go on to other verses…. New Living Translation (NLT)
Jhn 8:25 “Who are you?” they demanded. Jesus replied, “The one I have always claimed to be. [fn]New King James Version (NKJV)
Jhn 8:25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?” And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.
These verses clearly show that they didn't know who Jesus was…Jesus never claimed to be Jehovah God….. That is the Most High Gods name ALONE……
Psa 83:18 That they may know that You, whose name alone [is] the LORD, [Are] the Most High over all the earth.
Peace Irene
Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 04 2011,12:21) These verses do not mean that Jesus is the Great I AM,
The fact of the matter is that there exists no “Great I AM”. YHWH actually means “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE”. The NIV, knowing this, adds a footnote to their translation of Ex 3:14 saying: or “I will be what I will be”.The translation “I AM” is incorrect in the first place, so the Trinitarians will have to start searching out the scriptures where Jesus said “I will be” and try to use THEM as proof that Jesus claimed to be Jehovah.
peace and love to you Irene,
mikeMikeboll wrote:
Quote I've gone through each verse in John up to the point where Jesus said this. I've made a list of the things Jesus had claimed to be up until that point. I found no direct words of Jesus where he had claimed to be God Almighty, or equal to Him.
That's because He was God in the form of a servant (Philippians 2). A servant would not go around claiming He is God. And His becoming a servant would not change the fact that He is God.KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Sep. 05 2011,08:44) Mikeboll wrote: Quote I've gone through each verse in John up to the point where Jesus said this. I've made a list of the things Jesus had claimed to be up until that point. I found no direct words of Jesus where he had claimed to be God Almighty, or equal to Him.
That's because He was God in the form of a servant (Philippians 2). A servant would not go around claiming He is God. And His becoming a servant would not change the fact that He is God.KJ
God is a title, and to say Jesus is equal to His Father is going against the words of Jesus Himself….Jhn 14:28 “You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming [back] to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, [fn] 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you [fn] all.
There is only ONE God and Father of ALL, who is above ALL….
AND
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
And why Jesus want to give us the great commandment and not include Himself if He wanted to be worshiped….
Mat 22:36 “Teacher, which [is] the great commandment in the law?”
Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, “'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' [fn]
Mat 22:38 “This is [the] first and great commandment.
Also in Hebrew it says this
Hbr 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, YOUR GOD has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” [fn]
And then we have this Scripture
1Cr 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman [is] man, and the head of Christ [is] God.
Peace Irene
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Sep. 05 2011,15:44) Mikeboll wrote: Quote I've gone through each verse in John up to the point where Jesus said this. I've made a list of the things Jesus had claimed to be up until that point. I found no direct words of Jesus where he had claimed to be God Almighty, or equal to Him.
That's because He was God in the form of a servant (Philippians 2). A servant would not go around claiming He is God. And His becoming a servant would not change the fact that He is God.KJ
kjso it is like being the boss and being the labor in the field ,right ?
but then who's is doing the miracles for the labor ?if they are the same person ?
how can the boss and the labor being the same and yet work in different places at the same time ,?
how can one depend on the other if they are one person ?
Jkoo ,you are confused your math do not add up,
Pierre
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Sep. 04 2011,15:44) Mikeboll wrote: Quote I've gone through each verse in John up to the point where Jesus said this. I've made a list of the things Jesus had claimed to be up until that point. I found no direct words of Jesus where he had claimed to be God Almighty, or equal to Him.
That's because He was God in the form of a servant (Philippians 2). A servant would not go around claiming He is God. And His becoming a servant would not change the fact that He is God.KJ
So then you BOLDLY ADMIT that Jesus himself NEVER claimed to be God Almighty, or equal to Him? FANTASTIC!
That is a BIG step in the right direction, Jack. Because in John 8:25, Jesus said he was exactly who he'd been claiming to be all along. And if JESUS never claimed to be God, then Jesus apparently WASN'T God.
Good show, Jackaroo.
mike
It seems that no one is able to show a scripture from the first 8 chapters of John's gospel where Jesus himself claimed to be God, or equal to him.
I guess we can now expand the search to the rest of the gospel according to John.
I'll start with this scripture:
John 14:1
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God ; trust also in me.”The word “also” that Jesus used is a clear example that he is someone OTHER THAN God.
Mike,
The NET Bible translator notes disagree with you as well as most translations.NET ©
God said to Moses, “I am that I am.” 1 And he said, “You must say this 2 to the Israelites, ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
NIV ©God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
NASB ©God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
NLT ©God replied, “I AM THE ONE WHO ALWAYS IS. Just tell them, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
MSG ©God said to Moses, “I-AM-WHO-I-AM. Tell the People of Israel, 'I-AM sent me to you.'”
BBE ©And God said to him, I AM WHAT I AM: and he said, Say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.
NRSV ©God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” He said further, “Thus you shall say to the Israelites, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
NKJV ©And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
The NET notes:
1 tn The verb form used here is אֶהְיֶה (’ehyeh), the Qal imperfect, first person common singular, of the verb הָיָה (haya, “to be”). It forms an excellent paronomasia with the name. So when God used the verb to express his name, he used this form saying, “I am.” When his people refer to him as Yahweh, which is the third person masculine singular form of the same verb, they say “he is.” Some commentators argue for a future tense translation, “I will be who I will be,” because the verb has an active quality about it, and the Israelites lived in the light of the promises for the future. They argue that “I am” would be of little help to the Israelites in bondage. But a translation of “I will be” does not effectively do much more except restrict it to the future. The idea of the verb would certainly indicate that God is not bound by time, and while he is present (“I am”) he will always be present, even in the future, and so “I am” would embrace that as well (see also Ruth 2:13; Ps 50:21; Hos 1:9). The Greek translation of the OT used a participle to capture the idea, and several times in the Gospels Jesus used the powerful “I am” with this significance (e.g., John 8:58). The point is that Yahweh is sovereignly independent of all creation and that his presence guarantees the fulfillment of the covenant (cf. Isa 41:4; 42:6, 8; 43:10-11; 44:6; 45:5-7). Others argue for a causative Hiphil translation of “I will cause to be,” but nowhere in the Bible does this verb appear in Hiphil or Piel. A good summary of the views can be found in G. H. Parke-Taylor, Yahweh, the Divine Name in the Bible. See among the many articles: B. Beitzel, “Exodus 3:14 and the Divine Name: A Case of Biblical Paronomasia,” TJ 1 (1980): 5-20; C. D. Isbell, “The Divine Name ehyeh as a Symbol of Presence in Israelite Tradition,” HAR 2 (1978): 101-18; J. G. Janzen, “What’s in a Name? Yahweh in Exodus 3 and the Wider Biblical Context,” Int 33 (1979): 227-39; J. R. Lundbom, “God’s Use of the Idem per Idem to Terminate Debate,” HTR 71 (1978): 193-201; A. R. Millard, “Yw and Yhw Names,” VT 30 (1980): 208-12; and R. Youngblood, “A New Occurrence of the Divine Name ‘I AM,’” JETS 15 (1972): 144-52.Why would you teach Irene something as fact when it isn't? Misleading? That is not love.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 11 2011,12:51) But a translation of “I will be” does not effectively do much more except restrict it to the future…..“I am” would embrace that as well. The Greek translation of the OT used a participle to capture the idea, and several times in the Gospels Jesus used the powerful “I am” with this significance (e.g., John 8:58).
Kathi,This is their way of saying, “Many scholars DO believe it means 'I will be', but we will stick with 'I am' because then we can use this translation to claim that John 8:58 is Jesus claiming to be God”.
Jack has shown you what all scholars know to be true. YHWH refers to the verb “will be”, just as it does in Is 43:10.
And that's why virtually ever translation will have a footnote saying “Or, 'I will be what I will be'”.But instead of arguing over the meaning of YHWH, why not address these points I made before:
It is your assertion that when Jesus utters the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language, he is secretly telling us he is Jehovah God, right? You are taking the “I AM” to mean “Jehovah”, right? Let's spell it out your way:
John 8:24
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that JEHOVAH, you will die in your sins.”And here's John 8:58,
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, JEHOVAH!”Do you see how they make no sense? In order for your assertion to be realized, there need to be more words. For example, Jesus would have to say, “before Abraham was born, I WAS I AM”. Or “unless you believe that I AM I AM, you will die in your sins”.
Mike,
From what is said in the NET notes, Jehovah means He IS. Jehovah is third person singular of the I AM pronoun/verb.Also from the NET notes:
“Others argue for a causative Hiphil translation of “I will cause to be,” but nowhere in the Bible does this verb appear in Hiphil or Piel.“Furthermore, since God doesn't change, the future tense that you insist on doesn't make sense…only the present tense. God is not evolving. He IS.
Why don't you find the other times this pronoun/verb for 'I AM' is found and is translated as “I will be” with all the same Hebrew markings as in Exodus 3:14.
Here, I will help you:
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Ruth 2:13 Then she said, “I have found favor in your sight, my lord, for you have comforted me and indeed have spoken kindly to your maidservant, though I am not like one of your maidservants.”In the Hebrew, in both verses, the 'eh-yeh is marked the same in the vowel pointings or whatever they call them. I don't know Hebrew grammar but each mark has some significance.
Mike,
you said:Quote It is your assertion that when Jesus utters the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language, he is secretly telling us he is Jehovah God, right? You are taking the “I AM” to mean “Jehovah”, right? Let's spell it out your way:
John 8:24
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that JEHOVAH, you will die in your sins.”And here's John 8:58,
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, JEHOVAH!”It doesn't make sense because you are sticking a Hebrew proper name in place of an English translation of a different Hebrew word, although the two are related. Strong's #1961 'eh-yeh (I am) is not Strong's 3068 (YHVH). #3068 is the proper name FROM #1961.
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