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Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,05:53) Marty,
Creatures are by essence 'created' by God not 'born' of God. Creatures are a product of new matter. That which was born of God is not of 'new matter' but was eternal within the Father and then born of the Father at the appropriate time to act in the creation miracle of heaven and earth. The only one born of God created all things including the angels, He also appeared to man and interacted with man way before He emptied Himself and became man.Kathi
Hi Kathi:You will have to support all of what you are telling me about this with scripture in order to convince me of this.
Man is a creature that God created when he created Adam and Eve in the beginning, and through the seed of the creature, that is this man, all of humanity except for Jesus has been born into the world, but nevertheless, he is a man, as the scripture states. He is the first man born of God, and unique in that he is the Only man who has ever or will ever be conceived in the womb of a woman. The scripture states that Jesus was born of the seed of David according to the flesh.
I can give you scripture to support all of the above, and it will be the scripture that I will believe rather than any concept that is being proposed.
It is just like the doctrine of the “Trinity”. The Pastors where I have been attending church acknowledge that there are no scriptures that state that God is a Tri-une God, or that the Holy Ghost is the “Third Person” of a Tri-une God, or that state that Jesus is God the Son, but they want to teach this as Orthodox doctrine based on what they say is a concept that is there.
You have a translation that Jesus is a begotten God, but there is no God but YHWH, and Jesus is God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ. That is what my Father has revealed to humanity through the Apostle Peter, and that is who Jesus is.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (terraricca @ April 24 2011,19:04) marty Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
Is creation start wen Jesus was put in Marie by the holy spirit ?
Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,12:53) That which was born of God is not of 'new matter' but was eternal within the Father and then born of the Father at the appropriate time to act in the creation miracle of heaven and earth.
So this “new matter” was not at one time also eternal within the Father?Quote (942767 @ April 25 2011,17:28) You have a translation that Jesus is a begotten God, but there is no God but YHWH, and Jesus is God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ. That is what my Father has revealed to humanity through the Apostle Peter, and that is who Jesus is.
Hi Marty,We didn't make up the manuscriptS that have “begotten god” in 1:18.
And there are MANY gods mentioned in scripture, not just one. YHWH can't possibly be the God OF gods if there are no other gods for Him to be the God OF. He cannot preside over the gods in the assembly of gods and pass judgement on them if they don't exist. His first commandment is to put no other god before Him. How much sense does that make if there aren't any others?
Jesus is a god, so is Satan. So was Deborah, and many other vice regents of YHWH.
Sorry Kerwin for being off topic, but I think it's high time we start teaching scriptural truth instead of putting our heads in the sand and plugging our ears while screaming, “THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD!”
That teaching simply isn't scriptural, and once people realize this, phrases like “one God” and “only true God” and “no God besides Me” take on the meaning that was actually intended.
mike
Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,20:23) Hi Pierre: The new creation, yes.
Marty,Hebrews 1:2 says that the ages, (as in more than one age) were created through Jesus.
You speak of ONE age, and scripture speaks of (presumably) all ages………….but at the very least, more than one.
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ April 24 2011,21:53) It is not the new creation spoken of in Col 1:15 but the old creation which is made obvious in the immediate verse which follows.
The Firstborn of all creation created all things as the Firstborn, the image of the invisible God, God's only begotten Son born before the ages…the begotten God. God, the Father, so loved His Son and so loved the world that He gave His ONLY Son that whosoever believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life.Kathi
Good post Kathi.Quote (kerwin @ April 25 2011,01:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,01:24) Quote (kerwin @ April 23 2011,02:01) To all, Looking at John 3:10-13 it seems clear Jesus is speaking of the Word, spoken of in John 1:1-18, that was with the Elohim and was elohima in the beginning as the Word came down and united with the human Jesus. The same elohim that came down is still in heaven and will return to heaven in the flesh of Jesus.
Hi Kerwin,And this “Word of God”, who is itself (himself?) a god, also has the name “Son of Man”?
mike
Ephesians 4:3-6Quote 3being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;
4one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
5one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6one God and Father of all, who [is] over all, and through all, and in you all,
Hi Kerwin,Is that a “YES”?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,21:14) Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,12:53) That which was born of God is not of 'new matter' but was eternal within the Father and then born of the Father at the appropriate time to act in the creation miracle of heaven and earth.
So this “new matter” was not at one time also eternal within the Father?
That's right Mike.Hi Marty,
Which specific statement do you question:
Creatures are by essence 'created' by God not 'born' of God.
Creatures are a product of new matter.
That which was born of God is not of 'new matter' but was eternal within the Father and then born of the Father at the appropriate time to act in the creation miracle of heaven and earth.
The only one born of God created all things including the angels, He also appeared to man and interacted with man way before He emptied Himself and became man.
Kathi
Quote (Istari @ April 24 2011,01:55) Kerwin,
This is the inter-discussion I have been having with Mikeboll.My take on it starts with separating the time-line for the references made.
The verses say that he who believes in the name of the begotten Son of God will be saved.
But Shen does Scriptures tell us that Jesus was Begotten?
Does Hebrews not tell us, and Romans, that it was AFTER HE WAS RAISED UP (Which is the meaning of BEGOTTEN).So far, the skeptics fir this reading cannot reconcile the order and flow of the verses but simply to to see WORDS instead of SENTENCES, let alone MEANING.
They are Syntactic readers and ignore Symantics. Romans 1:4 clearly states that Jesus was Begotten to the Father WITH POWER. the skeptics choke on this and quickly point out that it says 'With power' as if it devalues the meaning of the verse. If it were upto them they would remove those words that so 'powerfully' makes a mockery of their claim!
The verses cannot be read in a linear fashion because they were written AFTER Jesus was risen and therefore makes reference to Jesus' CURRENT STATUS as opposed to his THEN STATUS – hence (Although not Scriptural agreed) there us reference to the 'Man who is in Heaven'.
That verse simply is not syntactically correct but is Semantically correct!!Yet, our Skeptics do not comment on the anomaly?
Nor on an earlier reference where Jesus says that 'God SENT JESUS' – well, his name was not 'Jesus' when he was sent…(And his name SHALL be called 'Jesus')Please note that others are also called 'Jesus' but no one confuses them with Christ Jesus of Nazareth.
Did anyone complain about him being called 'Jesus' as was done concerning 'John the Baptist' : there is no one of his relatives called 'John' as in our tradition?
We know that 'Jesus' is only our interpretation of the name and that it could just as easily be 'Joshua' hence 'Yeshua' so perhaps there were others in the family line of Joseph (Or Mary) who had that name – as in the tradition of the Jews!)
Greetings Istari……The begetal of Jesus and the resurection are purposed for each other….The begetal establishes his existance from the beginning,perhaps not in the form we are trying perceive,but the word being God and with God is pretty clear….The confusion starts when we are told that Gods word became flesh and lived among us….The resurection was a declaration of the deity of Jesus and a demonstration of the final aspect of Gods plan for all of us….Let us not forget that with God anything is possoble and without him nothing is possible….There is no timeline God and his very existance trancends time….Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2011,08:32) Quote (kerwin @ April 25 2011,01:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,01:24) Quote (kerwin @ April 23 2011,02:01) To all, Looking at John 3:10-13 it seems clear Jesus is speaking of the Word, spoken of in John 1:1-18, that was with the Elohim and was elohima in the beginning as the Word came down and united with the human Jesus. The same elohim that came down is still in heaven and will return to heaven in the flesh of Jesus.
Hi Kerwin,And this “Word of God”, who is itself (himself?) a god, also has the name “Son of Man”?
mike
Ephesians 4:3-6Quote 3being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;
4one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
5one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6one God and Father of all, who [is] over all, and through all, and in you all,
Hi Kerwin,Is that a “YES”?
mike
Mike,I answered what you said in part but absentmindedly overlooked your question about Son of man.
The Spirit is part of the Unity of the Spirit otherwise known as elohim.
The Spirit of Christ is Spirit and so does not have bodily side and thus when not united with a human being is not a descendant of Mankind. Even when united it is the union of the two natures that become The Son of Man.
The Spirit of God did change Jesus from a son of man to the Son of Man when he inherited it by setting him aside.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2011,13:24) Quote (942767 @ April 25 2011,17:28) You have a translation that Jesus is a begotten God, but there is no God but YHWH, and Jesus is God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ. That is what my Father has revealed to humanity through the Apostle Peter, and that is who Jesus is.
Hi Marty,We didn't make up the manuscriptS that have “begotten god” in 1:18.
And there are MANY gods mentioned in scripture, not just one. YHWH can't possibly be the God OF gods if there are no other gods for Him to be the God OF. He cannot preside over the gods in the assembly of gods and pass judgement on them if they don't exist. His first commandment is to put no other god before Him. How much sense does that make if there aren't any others?
Jesus is a god, so is Satan. So was Deborah, and many other vice regents of YHWH.
Sorry Kerwin for being off topic, but I think it's high time we start teaching scriptural truth instead of putting our heads in the sand and plugging our ears while screaming, “THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD!”
That teaching simply isn't scriptural, and once people realize this, phrases like “one God” and “only true God” and “no God besides Me” take on the meaning that was actually intended.
mike
Hi Mike:Maybe you didn't, but obviously someone did or mistranslated what was said. God has revealed through the Apostle Peter that Jesus is “the Christ, the Son of the Living God”, and so, that is who he is.
If you want to argue with scripture, then go right ahead:
Quote 1 Co 8:5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
It is one thing to have his divine nature by virtue of Jesus' spirit and our spirit being formed through obedience to God's Word, and being called god because of the divine nature, but there is no begotten God.
Quote John 10:34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jesus said that he was the “Son of God”.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ April 28 2011,11:12) Hi Mike: Maybe you didn't, but obviously someone did or mistranslated what was said.
Hi Marty,Did they also mistranslate John 1:1 and 20:28?
Will you keep your head in the sand also, or realize that many in scriptures were called “elohim” and “theos”?
Jesus was one of them. He was the god who was with THE God in the beginning. He is the god of Thomas, meaning “ruler” – just as Deborah and Barak were the new gods of Israel that God appointed as RULERS. (Judges 5:8 literally says “He chose new gods when war came………..”)
For crying out loud, Satan was called a god – why not the second most powerful being in existence?
I'm going to have to start a thread on this, because people need to know the truth of the matter so they can better understand phrases like “yet for us there is but one God” and “the only true God” and “besides Me there is no god”.
mike
Quote (terraricca @ April 26 2011,00:06) Quote (kerwin @ April 26 2011,01:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,01:24) Quote (kerwin @ April 23 2011,02:01) To all, Looking at John 3:10-13 it seems clear Jesus is speaking of the Word, spoken of in John 1:1-18, that was with the Elohim and was elohima in the beginning as the Word came down and united with the human Jesus. The same elohim that came down is still in heaven and will return to heaven in the flesh of Jesus.
Hi Kerwin,And this “Word of God”, who is itself (himself?) a god, also has the name “Son of Man”?
mike
Ephesians 4:3-6Quote 3being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;
4one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
5one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6one God and Father of all, who [is] over all, and through all, and in you all,
KerwinEPH 4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
EPH 4:2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
EPH 4:3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
EPH 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
EPH 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
EPH 4:6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
EPH 4:7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
EPH 4:8 Therefore it says,
“WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN.”
EPH 4:9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
EPH 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)NAVersion
wen you quote, quote it right and truthfully.
Pierre
Pierre,I was just speaking of the unity of the spirt which is also called “elohim” or “theos” in the Hebrew and common Greek language and translted “god” in English. I quoted the versus pertenant to that particular teaching and saw not need for the rest since they are speaking of living by the Spirit and the fact that Jesus decended to the grave and then ascended far above the heavens.
The last applies to this thread as well, so if you have a point using it then please feel free to share. Thank you!
Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2011,22:31) Quote (terraricca @ April 26 2011,00:06) Quote (kerwin @ April 26 2011,01:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,01:24) Quote (kerwin @ April 23 2011,02:01) To all, Looking at John 3:10-13 it seems clear Jesus is speaking of the Word, spoken of in John 1:1-18, that was with the Elohim and was elohima in the beginning as the Word came down and united with the human Jesus. The same elohim that came down is still in heaven and will return to heaven in the flesh of Jesus.
Hi Kerwin,And this “Word of God”, who is itself (himself?) a god, also has the name “Son of Man”?
mike
Ephesians 4:3-6Quote 3being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;
4one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
5one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6one God and Father of all, who [is] over all, and through all, and in you all,
KerwinEPH 4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
EPH 4:2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
EPH 4:3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
EPH 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
EPH 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
EPH 4:6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
EPH 4:7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
EPH 4:8 Therefore it says,
“WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN.”
EPH 4:9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
EPH 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)NAVersion
wen you quote, quote it right and truthfully.
Pierre
Pierre,I was just speaking of the unity of the spirt which is also called “elohim” or “theos” in the Hebrew and common Greek language and translted “god” in English. I quoted the versus pertenant to that particular teaching and saw not need for the rest since they are speaking of living by the Spirit and the fact that Jesus decended to the grave and then ascended far above the heavens.
The last applies to this thread as well, so if you have a point using it then please feel free to share. Thank you!
Kerwinthe spirit of God is not God it is of God, God is a tittle but the being who as that tittle is a full being ,so it cannot be divided,
being one with God mean that you stand with him in his will,and so do what he requires from you.
this then would be called have the same spirit or being in the same spirit,
Pierre
Pierre,
You wrote:
Quote Kerwin
the spirit of God is not God it is of God, God is a tittle but the being who as that tittle is a full being ,so it cannot be divided,
being one with God mean that you stand with him in his will,and so do what he requires from you.
this then would be called have the same spirit or being in the same spirit,
Pierre
Quote Ephesians 2 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
1 John 3
24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
John 15
26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
God dwells in believers through the Spirit of God.
I am not stating that the Spirit is God but rather it is part of God as a man’s spirit is part of a man.
Quote 1 Corinthians 2 10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.God placed the spirit of Mosses into the elders of the children of Israel. Was that dividing Mosses?
Quote Numbers 11 16 The LORD said to Moses: “Bring me seventy of Israel’s elders who are known to you as leaders and officials among the people. Have them come to the tent of meeting, that they may stand there with you. 17 I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take some of the power of the Spirit that is on you and put it on them. They will share the burden of the people with you so that you will not have to carry it alone.
…
29 But Moses replied, “Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD’s people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!”
Jesus states he will send the Spirit in the role of holy councilor, and thus he does. That is why those with the Spirit are instructed to put on the new man “created” like God in true holiness and righteousness. Since scripture states the new man is created then he is created by God through the Spirit of Christ that dwells within those that obey all of Jesus’ teachings.
Quote John 16 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:
Those who cloth themselves in the new man are from above while those who who cloth themselves in old man are from below.
Note: I may be misunderstanding your points and so stating the same thing you are but with different words.
Note: All writings from NIV c.2011.
Edited to clarify what post I was answering and whan translation of scripture I quoted from.
Quote (kerwin @ May 01 2011,04:22) Pierre, You wrote:
Quote Kerwin
the spirit of God is not God it is of God, God is a tittle but the being who as that tittle is a full being ,so it cannot be divided,
being one with God mean that you stand with him in his will,and so do what he requires from you.
this then would be called have the same spirit or being in the same spirit,
Pierre
Quote Ephesians 2 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
1 John 3
24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
John 15
26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
God dwells in believers through the Spirit of God.
I am not stating that the Spirit is God but rather it is part of God as a man’s spirit is part of a man.
Quote 1 Corinthians 2 10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.God placed the spirit of Mosses into the elders of the children of Israel. Was that dividing Mosses?
Quote Numbers 11 16 The LORD said to Moses: “Bring me seventy of Israel’s elders who are known to you as leaders and officials among the people. Have them come to the tent of meeting, that they may stand there with you. 17 I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take some of the power of the Spirit that is on you and put it on them. They will share the burden of the people with you so that you will not have to carry it alone.
…
29 But Moses replied, “Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD’s people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!”
Jesus states he will send the Spirit in the role of holy councilor, and thus he does. That is why those with the Spirit are instructed to put on the new man “created” like God in true holiness and righteousness. Since scripture states the new man is created then he is created by God through the Spirit of Christ that dwells within those that obey all of Jesus’ teachings.
Quote John 16 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:
Those who cloth themselves in the new man are from above while those who who cloth themselves in old man are from below.
Note: I may be misunderstanding your points and so stating the same thing you are but with different words.
Note: All writings from NIV c.2011.
Edited to clarify what post I was answering and whan translation of scripture I quoted from.
Kerwinyea ,you saying the same thing ,and use a page to do so,
well the scriptures are now showing what I was saying .
thanks
Pierre
Quote 1 John 5
1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:
According to this scripture everyone who posts here is born of God.Quote (Wispring @ May 25 2011,10:39) Quote 1 John 5
1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:
According to this scripture everyone who posts here is born of God.
It depends on interpretation.For examplee if a man states her believes Jesus is the Christ but the Jesus he speaks of is born in Mexico then is he born of God?
We have different opinions on just who Jesus is and what is means to be the Anointed.
Consider a point similar to one James brings up in his letter as Satan believes Jesus is the Christ.
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