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Hi Jodi,
You:
Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Me:
Heb 11 is about the faith of those that awaited the resurrection of Christ so they can rise spiritually from the dead. Read Heb 11 carefully—the ones that awaited salvation are those that had died before Pentecost:
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
You:
Acts 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. 6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope’s sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? ….23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.Me: Yes, he is the first to rise from the dead both physically and of his soul. But those after that rise from being spiritually dead at the baptism of the holy spirit and have their spirits with Christ at their physical deaths. Their new bodies reserved in heaven come later when the Messiah returns.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell…
Hi Jodi,
You:
Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have SPOKEN of ANOTHER DAY. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.Me:
Christ said he is the Lord of the Sabbath (Matt 12:8), he is that Sabbath rest now.
Matt 11:28 (NKJV) Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
1 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Me: Christ is our comfort and rest now. He gives us rest and peace in our trails.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 10 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should REST yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Me: The saints souls rest in heaven when they die.
Luke 19:16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. 17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
Me: Saints work when they receive their new bodies. Bodies are the last thing received.
2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Hi TC,
YOU: We are called the sons of God NOW. We receive salvation NOW if we endure to the end of our lives.
ME:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING FOR the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
We are waiting for our HUMAN BODY to go from mortal to immortal, corruptible to incorruptible, weakness to power, dishonor to glory. Our FAITH, the Spirit being a witness to our spirit that we are children of God, as our FAITH counts as our righteousness, it is what SECURES our salvation, our BODIES being redeemed whether they are dead bodies or alive bodies at Christ’s return.We groan waiting to have a body that is directed in all ways by God, where we will never fail, where temptation isn’t even possible.
Jesus saved us from the penalty of our sins, death, bringing the resurrection, but it is our FAITH that God calls each person to, which is an individual journey, building our individual character for His future purpose, that He has in mind for each individual. That faith secures receiving the promise. We receive of God’s Spirit now, fruits therein that build our faith and our character, but this is not the full measure, this is not yet God ALL in, that is what our hope is in. By our suffering and the suffering of others, by our knowledge of what we shall be and what the world will become, makes us have hope all the more, it makes us desire God all the more, it makes us long for Christ’s return all the more.
Our hope is not to die because of something we gain upon death, living without a body, our hope is in Christ’s return to earth, when he will bring the world to peace.
TC I long for pain and suffering to me no more, for children to stop being neglected and abused, and JUSTICE and TRUTH to be established, that is what I desire first and foremost, my own eternal life is an added bonus, NOT at all where my mind is focused. I could care LESS about your doctrine of having NO BODY, I long for a world that is finally at peace, for when Jesus comes down to establish it.
Hi TC,
YOU: Christ said he is the Lord of the Sabbath (Matt 12:8), he is that Sabbath rest now.
ME: 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
The BEN of ADAM is master over the Sabbath day.
Christ is said to be master over the Sabbath, the very context of that verse is in relation to the LAW of God and how one is to obey that law. Jesus was teaching against what men perceived how the law is to be kept, because of what he was saying they wanted to persecute him, they thought he was preaching against the law.
This verse, Jesus declaring he is lord of the Sabbath has nothing to do with Jesus being “that Sabbath rest now” as you claim. The context surrounding the verse tells you that TC, it is about how to keep the law, can man pick corn, can man heal a person on the Sabbath, save animals out of a ditch? Good grief, talk about talking a verse out of context to fit your doctrine.
TC, truth and sound doctrine is not established by you reading a verse, ignoring the context and deciding what you want that verse to mean. This is what you use for support of your doctrine? It is pathetic, TERRIBLE.
Scripture says the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.
He is a master over the law, he says how it is that one is to keep the Sabbath day holy. His words on how to keep the Sabbath holy are NOT his words, they are God’s. Have you forgotten that TC? Jesus is God’s messenger, he came in the name of the LORD, everything he says and does is directly given to him by God to say and do. Apparently God anointing the root of Jesse and directing ALL his ways is just vanity to you. Jesus himself, was UNDER the law to KEEP it.
Hi TC,
YOU: Christ said he is the Lord of the Sabbath (Matt 12:8), he is that Sabbath rest now.
ME: Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.
The BEN of ADAM is master over the Sabbath day.
The Son of Man is master over the Sabbath, the very context of that verse is in relation to the LAW of God and how one is to obey that law. Jesus was teaching against what men perceived how the law is to be kept, because of what he was saying they wanted to persecute him, they thought he was preaching against the law.
This verse, Jesus declaring he is lord of the Sabbath has nothing to do with Jesus being “that Sabbath rest now” as you claim. The context surrounding the verse tells you that TC, it is about how to keep the law, can man pick corn, can man heal a person on the Sabbath, save animals out of a ditch? Good grief, talk about talking a verse out of context to fit your doctrine.
TC, truth and sound doctrine is not established by you reading a verse, ignoring the context and deciding what you want that verse to mean so it fits with your doctrine.
Scripture says the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath, and we see him keeping that Sabbath, following the law of it according to God.
His words on how to keep the Sabbath holy are NOT his words, they are God’s. Have you forgotten that TC? Jesus is God’s messenger, he came in the name of the LORD, everything he says and does is directly given to him by God to say and do. Apparently God anointing the root of Jesse and directing ALL his ways is just vanity to you. Jesus himself, was UNDER the law to KEEP it.
Hi TC,
Apply Paul’s words with Paul’s words,
Phill 2:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
TC, persecution was knocking on Paul’s door, he was prepared to be martyred and in such to die is thus gain for him.
As we are told in Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
If Paul was to die TC he knew very well it would be under trial, under persecution, and he had all confidence he would reach his death remaining faithful, and he would receive a crown of life for his faithfulness.
Paul tells us directly what happens when you die, you AWAKE from death meeting Christ receiving a body that is incorruptible, going from being a mortal to having immortality, and he speaks of that immortality as being IN an incorruptible body.
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Paul was a Saint TC, he is DEAD, and he shall be RAISED at the last trump, he is changed from having been a MORTAL to becoming an IMMORTAL. There are NO immortal Saints alive resting waiting for a new body. Paul’s words were not written in vein, him saying that DEATH is swallowed up in victory is not empty words.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.It is DEATH and the resurrection of the DEAD, it is to die and then to be MADE ALIVE. It is to be mortal and then be made immortal.
Christ BECAME the firstfruits OF them that slept, AFTERWARDS they that are in Christ’s AT his coming.
There is NOTHING in Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 15 that tells you that the Saints are ALIVE, they are those that are Christ’s, and they are MADE ALIVE at his coming.
You ignore verse 20 and then you try and CHANGE what is directly said in verse 23, all to fit your doctrine and it is such deceptive bad form. CHRIST is THE FIRSTFRUITS, AFTERWARDS THEY that ARE Christ’s at HIS COMING. Not some that are Christ’s at his coming, but those that are his.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
There is your mystery, and in it there is NOTHING about Saints being alive without a body “resting” waiting for a new body. Paul was a Saint TC, he was an apostle and all you do is try and preach a different Gospel. Paul a Saint, comforted people by the words given above. He tells you directly “WE BELIEVE” and that which you are to believe in.
THOSE who sleep in Jesus are DEAD, he compares those that are sleeping with those that are actually ALIVE.
Paul speaking of people being asleep is recognition that he BELIEVES in the RESURRECTION.
NOT that he believes that the Son of Man who was lord of the Sabbath “became a Sabbath rest now”, and people go to rest being alive without bodies.
YOU gave: Matt 11:28 (NKJV) Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
ME: Let’s add the very next verse, 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
What is the next chapter, it is of Jesus saying he is Lord of the Sabbath, tearing down the Pharisees and the burden they place on people in how they view God’s commandments should be kept. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and he lightens the burden that the Pharisees have subjected people to in keeping the laws of God, as they thought those laws needed to be kept. Jesus gives people rest in their souls/lives by teaching people, by healing them, he certainly teaches that the Pharisees are hypocrites and vipers and their ways are in error, he certainly gives rest to souls by giving them the good news, the Gospel.
Hi TC,
YOU: next, we receive salvation at our individual deaths.
Matt 10:22…but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order (5001): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
5001. tagma Usage: rank, division, an ORDERED SERIES.
From tasso; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or SUCCESSION— order.ME: NO, Paul says that our salvation is received together multiply times. Yes, he that endureth shall be saved, and Paul tells you that the glory of our salvation is received for all those in Christ together, on the same day at the descending of Jesus and at the sound of the trump.
Every man in his own order, Christ is the first MAN, the first in order, the second in order comes AFTERWARD and that ORDER for every man in Christ, is at his coming.
The above verse directly speaks against you TC.
RE: PAGE 10
Post #846423
JULY 2, 2019 AT 6:02 AMHi Jodi,
You:
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING FOR the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Me:
I have shown you that this could and does mean WAITING FOR the adoption, to wit, the redemption FROM our body.
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the BODY of sin might be DESTROYED, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me FROM the body of this death?
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth NOT YET APPEAR WHAT WE SHALL BE: but we know that, when he shall appear, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see him as he is
Me: We are adopted into his body, or his glorious body that shines like the morning star. This is the crown or frosting on the cake. It is the last step of salvation.
Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Me: We cannot comprehend what we will be like. It will not be flesh and bone as you theorize wrongly.
You:
I long for pain and suffering to me no more, for children to stop being neglected and abused, and JUSTICE and TRUTH to be established, that is what I desire first and foremost, my own eternal life is an added bonus, NOT at all where my mind is focused. I could care LESS about your doctrine of having NO BODY, I long for a world that is finally at peace, for when Jesus comes down to establish it.
Me: God Almighty did not have a body from eternity. He did perfectly well without one. We can also. He is spirit (John 4:24). The body of the father is the son. We are the body together with Christ. The body is one at this time. The resurrection of the spirit comes first.
Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to BE WITH CHRIST which is far better: 24 NETHERTHELESS TO ABIDE IN THE FLESH IS MORE NEEDFUL FOR YOU. 25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
Hi Jodi,
Response to:
Post #846433 page 8 JULY 3, 2019 AT 3:26 AMYou: It is DEATH and the resurrection of the DEAD, it is to die and then to be MADE ALIVE. It is to be mortal and then be made immortal.
Me:
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his DEATH? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his RESURRECTION.
Me: It is by CHRIST’S that we are saved, not by our deaths.
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Me: Martha thought like you do, that the dead arise only at the time of the Messiah’s return. But Christ gave a demonstration that the time resurrection is now by raising up Lazarus.
1 Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there IS NO resurrection of the dead?…
1Cor 15:16 (Greek text) if for____ dead are not raised neither Christ has been raised. …20 Now however Christ has been raised out from dead firstfruit of those having fallen asleep.
Me: The dead saints from the OT had risen from the dead, therefore it proves that Christ was the first to do so. Otherwise they wouldn’t have risen after Christ had risen. This is what 1 Cor 15:16 means.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour (time) is coming, and now is, when the dead shall HEAR THE VOICE of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Me: All the righteous dead before Pentecost came to life after the glorification of Christ.
Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath (me: crucifixion) be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 4 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. 15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands
Me: We know that “wrath” is verse 13 must be the crucifixion and not God’s wrath on the wicked world when he returns because this happens after the saints are with him.
Hi Jodi
You:
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Me: The verse above is addressing our mortal bodies. Mortal means mortal, not to be brought to everlasting life. Let us put together the scriptures so they do not contradict each other.
John 5:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall NEVER DIE Believest thou this?
Me: Don’t our bodies die. So this must be addressing the heart and soul.
2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an HOUSE NOT MADE WITH HANDS (not of the procreation process) eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
1 Cor 15:35… And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
Me: Very plain, we desire to be clothed with our bodies in heaven, not our earthly bodies. Our earthly bodies will be dead and will remain so.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Me: Is it our mortal bodies that shall be revived?
1 Cor 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?...37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain (me:see of the holy spirit)): 38 but God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Me: How does Christ quicken our mortal bodies? He gives us seed of the holy spirit in the image of our mortal bodies, and this spirit will give us a body in the image of our mortal bodies. It is reserved in heaven for us. Mortal means dead forever.
2 Cor 5:8 (NKJV) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Me: We become spirits first.
1 Cor 15:44… it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.Me: What is sown a natural body? It is the image of the form of God of the flesh. What is raised a spirit body? It is the image of God in the form of a glorious body not of flesh but that will radiate like the stars in heaven.
Hi Jodi,
You:
1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
You: There is your mystery, and in it there is NOTHING about Saints being alive without a body “resting” waiting for a new body. Paul was a Saint TC, he was an apostle and all you do is try and preach a different Gospel. Paul a Saint, comforted people by the words given above. He tells you directly “WE BELIEVE” and that which you are to believe in
Me: Let us look at this verse by verse.
1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep (2837) in JESUS WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM…17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with THEM IN THE CLOUDS to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
2837. koimaó from NG2749 to cause to sleep, put to sleep (Homer, et al.); metaphorically, to still, calm, quiet, (Homer, Aeschylus, Plato)Me: First of all, “those that sleep in Jesus” does not mean those that sleep in the ground. Also notice “sleep in JESUS WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM” implying that Jesus is God.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should REST (373) yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
373. anapauó
Definition
to give rest, give intermission from labor, by impl. refresh
NASB Translation
give…rest (1), refresh (1), refreshed (3), rest (3), resting (2), rests (1), take your ease (1).Me So the best definition of 2837 in 1 Thes 4:14 that matches 373 in Rev 6:11 is still, calm, quiet.
1 Thes 4::16 which sleep (2837) in Jesus will God bring with him…17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord
Me: secondly, Christ brings those in heaven with him; he does not resurrect their bodies from the grave. They have already have new bodies.
1 Thes 4:16 … and the dead in Christ shall (me: 450 appear) first:
Me: “Appear” is the better definition an not “rise” in the scope of the scriptures presented.
450. anistémi: to cause to appear, bring forward
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet APPEAR what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall APPEAR, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
Me: These will have new bodies, for it is appointment for men to die at least once first. They leave their old bodies behind.
Hi Jodi,
Re: PAGE 10 JULY 3 POST: #846432
You Quoted me: Christ said he is the Lord of the Sabbath (Matt 12:8), he is that Sabbath rest now.
You: Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.
The BEN of ADAM is master over the Sabbath day.
The Son of Man is master over the Sabbath, the very context of that verse is in relation to the LAW of God and how one is to obey that law. Jesus was teaching against what men perceived how the law is to be kept, because of what he was saying they wanted to persecute him, they thought he was preaching against the law.
This verse, Jesus declaring he is lord of the Sabbath has nothing to do with Jesus being “that Sabbath rest now” as you claim. The context surrounding the verse tells you that TC, it is about how to keep the law, can man pick corn, can man heal a person on the Sabbath, save animals out of a ditch? Good grief, talk about talking a verse out of context to fit your doctrine.
TC, truth and sound doctrine is not established by you reading a verse, ignoring the context and deciding what you want that verse to mean so it fits with your doctrine.
Scripture says the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath, and we see him keeping that Sabbath, following the law of it according to God.
His words on how to keep the Sabbath holy are NOT his words, they are God’s. Have you forgotten that TC? Jesus is God’s messenger, he came in the name of the LORD, everything he says and does is directly given to him by God to say and do. Apparently God anointing the root of Jesse and directing ALL his ways is just vanity to you. Jesus himself, was UNDER the law to KEEP it.Me: You speak of the Sabbath in Matt 12:18 as the OT law. Pharisees had accursed him of breaking the Sabbath law. But Christ expounded on this that he is the law of LIBERTY. Sabbath means “rest”.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Me: So, what day is that? Is it Sunday? No it is Christ himself. The Jews had not entered into that rest.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Me: What works did the Word cease from? God wasn’t tire. It was from the physical creation. What works do we cease from?
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh…19 Now the WORKS of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,…
Me: We cease from the works of the flesh—the works of the physical creation.
Matt 11:28 (NKJV) Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I WILL GIVE YOU REST.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to HELP IN THE TIME OF NEED.
Hi Jodi,
You quoted me: next, we receive salvation at our individual deaths.
Matt 10:22…but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order (5001): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
5001. tagma Usage: rank, division, an ORDERED SERIES.
From tasso; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or SUCCESSION— order.You: NO, Paul says that our salvation is received together multiply times.
Me: You are kidding.
You: Yes, he that endureth shall be saved, and Paul tells you that the glory of our salvation is received for all those in Christ together, on the same day at the descending of Jesus and at the sound of the trump.
All receive their new bodies at the same time, not their salvation. The body is the crown jewel of that salvation.
Every man in his own order, Christ is the first MAN, the first in order, the second in order comes AFTERWARD and that ORDER for every man in Christ, is at his coming.Me: No, Christ is the first in the order of those that follow. Those still alive in their bodies at his coming are the last order. Those resurrected from the dead around Pentecost are those of an order following Christ.
You: The above verse directly speaks against you TC.
Me: NO IT SPEAKS DIRECTLY AGAINST YOU. You are too much of a dingbat to realized this.
Hi All,
One more time for more clarification.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Me: We must resolve the seeming conflict between the scripture above and those below.
New American Standard Bible
1 Cor 15:45 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must PUT ON immortality.Luke 21:16 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Me: I definitely believe our image of our body shall not perish. What if we were incinerated by a nuclear bomb? How then are our bodies to be changed? Quicken our mortal bodies of our image or form and put on a new body in this image or form is the solution.
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall (me: appear) incorruptible, and WE (me: not our bodies) shall be changed.
Me: Those that are dead and alive will have new bodies when Christ appears.
2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be CLOTHED UPON with our house which is from heaven:…8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Me: These receive their new bodies before ascending to earth.
1 Cor 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain (me: seed), it may chance of wheat (me: new body), or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body
Me: The seed of the holy spirit will not have a body of flesh of the seed of the flesh.
correction:
Not: These receive their new bodies before ascending to earth.
But: These receive their new bodies before descending to earth.
Hi All,
Contemporary English Version
Romans 8:11 Yet God raised Jesus to life! God’s Spirit now lives in you, and he will raise you to life by his Spirit.Me: This is basically what Romans 8:11 means.
Romans 8:11 (KJV) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
New American Standard Bible
1 Cor 15:35 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.Me: What is perishable is our mortal bodies and souls of our basic image and what must be put on is our new immortal bodies from our new or holy spirit onto our basic image so we would not be found naked.
2 Cor 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna symbolizes destruction of old man).
Me: So we are given a body of the spirit or life in exchange for the mortal body we were born with when Christ “quickens” our mortal body with a body like his. God made us in his image of mind and body. For us, the earthly spirit and body came of this image came first. The heavenly spirit and body comes secondly. So “quicken” your mortal bodies means to have your image of the form of God exchanged for a body of the holy spirit.
New American Standard Bible
1 Cor 15:45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit…47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.Me: Just because you are called a man, does not mean that you are of the earth. Being called a man means that you have the body that God’s temple will look like. 1 Cor 15:45 implies that the first man did not become a living soul.
1 Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural (first Adam); and afterward that (second Adam) which is spiritual.
Me: This means that the first Adam was a living soul or natural. The last Adam was not. The second Adam could transfigured (Matt 17:1-5) himself, the first could not.
1 Cor 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Me: The second man did not have an earthly spirit but only the holy spirit. The second man’s body was not mortal and was not of this earth and did not perish but was transformed into a glorious body. He died on account of our sins so we can die with him and resurrect with him into a new life and body and then have a new existence. He did not need to die but chose to so we could be baptized of the holy spirit.
Hi All,
Thus Son of “MAN” means the son of the “FORM” or visible image of God. It does not necessarily mean of a flesh and blood body like we have presently.
Hi Jodi,
In Response to your post on “The Ordinary Jesus Brigade June 27, Page 152 post #846482
You quoted:
Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Acts 2:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:Me:
John 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Me: There are two seeds, one of the flesh and one of the human heart and soul. John 3:9 pertains to the physical seed of Abraham.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, [me: eph ho, by which] all have sinned:
Me: Had Christ sinned? NO!!! So death was not passed on to him from the MALE genes of Abraham.
Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat…15 And I will put enmity between thee and the WOMAN, and between thy (devil’s) seed and HER SEED (the Messiah); it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16… and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Me: The woman ate first, but death is passed on through the male seed. He is the ruler of the woman and she is subject to him. The female genes are subject to the male genes.
Hi Jodi,
Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I KNOW NOT A MAN? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing (me: child) which shall be born of thee shall be called the SON OF GOD.
Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Me: Mary had conceived in her womb BEFORE she knew man and BEFORE she came together with Joseph.
New Living Translation
1 Cor 15:47 Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven.John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Me: Christ is the new Adam (man). His males genes were created directly by God from heaven. Death was passed on by the first Adam but not to the NEW Adam (1 Cor 15:21). He was made a little lower than GOD in the flesh.
https://biblehub.com/psalms/8-5.htm
–BYRON: Childe Harold.
But the psalmist looks beyond the bright worlds to a higher kinship with God Himself.
“For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels.--Literally, thou makest him want but a little from God: i.e., hast made him little less than Divine. We should read, however, instead of “for thou,” “and thou hast made,” &c. The Authorised Version follows the LXX. in a translation suggested doubtlessly by the desire to tone down an expression about the Deity that seemed too bold…”Pulpit Commentary
“Verse 5. – For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels; rather, thou hast made him but a little lower than God (אלהים). There is no place in the Old Testament where Elohim means “angels;” and, though the LXX. so translate in the present passage, and the rendering has passed from them into the New Testament (Hebrews 2:7), it cannot be regarded as critically correct. ..”Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the SON OF GOD.
Matt 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a JUST and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for THAT WHICH IS CONCIEVED in her is OF THE HOLY GHOST
John 1:14 …and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Me: Death was NOT passed on to the Messiah from the genes of the male side of the human race but as he was conceived by our heavenly father of human genes created by him. He was made a little lower than God. No man was called the SON OF GOD from the first Adam to the second Adam. The first Adam had no ancestors, so like the angels he was called the SON GOD. The second Adam had no MALE ancestors according to the flesh, so he too was called the SON OF GOD.
You:
Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Me: This does not mean that Christ had the same type of blood as we do. He did not have death in his flesh and by extension his blood. We become sons of God by being baptized in the holy spirit, not by the blood of men.
Hi Jodi,
You: This is what I believe,
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Me: This came through Mary (Y) of her XY combination. God provided the (X) factor. This made a flesh of the Messiah together with the heart and soul of the spiritual seed of David a little lower than God.
Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are NOT the children of God (sons of God): but the children of the promise (of the heart and soul) are counted for the seed.
Me: The children of the seed of the heart and soul of the Messiah are counted as the children of God, not of the seed of his flesh. This seed is in the holy spirit of God.
Matt 16:15 He (the Messiah) saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of ONE, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Me: Here in Gal 3:16, the seed of the heart and soul of Abraham is emphasized. One of the seeds from here is the seed of the Messiah. Even though disciples become children of God according to the spirit, they inherit a glorified body of the spirit like Christ, because they are of his spiritual seed. God gives every seed a body (1 Cor 15:37-38).
Ezk 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh (Me: of the Messiah)
Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of ONE HEART and ONE SOUL: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
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