JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Of course he was not the God who was in him doing any of these works.

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2008,08:16)

What did Yahshua pray? He said the Father always heard him but for their sakes he prayed. He saw what the Father was doing and he did it.

But he still prayed….and asked….The Father…..to raise Lazarus.

Why didn't Jesus just stand on his own power and do the job and get it done?

Remember that the crownd PRAISED GOD who gave that authority to men (Jesus). It is written.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2008,10:16)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2008,08:16) What did Yahshua pray? He said the Father always heard him but for their sakes he prayed. He saw what the Father was doing and he did it. But he still prayed….and asked….The Father…..to raise Lazarus. Why didn't Jesus just stand on his own power and do the job and get it done? Remember that the crownd PRAISED GOD who gave that authority to men (Jesus).  It is written.

Hi Mandy

Yes, and remember many times the people gave glory to Yahshua and bowed down and “worshipped” him for the works he done, and not once can you find where Yahshua forbid them to do so.

But how does his prayer and his raising Lazarus by his word negate what he said here?…

That all men should honour the Son, “even as they honour the Father“. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth “my word”, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when “the dead shall “hear the voice of the Son of God“: and they that hear shall live“.

In fact his words agree with their response to him and his actions.

WJ

[Tiffany]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2008,10:16)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2008,08:16) What did Yahshua pray? He said the Father always heard him but for their sakes he prayed. He saw what the Father was doing and he did it. But he still prayed….and asked….The Father…..to raise Lazarus. Why didn't Jesus just stand on his own power and do the job and get it done? Remember that the crownd PRAISED GOD who gave that authority to men (Jesus).  It is written.

The one thing I think that Jesus cannot do and that is to forgive our Sins. For that we need to go through Jesus to our Almighty Father and ask Him for forgiveness of our sins.
And it is sin that made the body die. Adams sin. So did Lazarus die. And in order for that all be forgiven, all have to go to our Almighty Father. So Jesus prayed for their sakes.
Am I missing something?
Peace and Love Irene

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Of course all those who brought the words of God to men should have been honoured.
Instead the tenant farmers abused and killed all of them, even the Word, the Son of God.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2008,10:35)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2008,10:16) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2008,08:16) What did Yahshua pray? He said the Father always heard him but for their sakes he prayed. He saw what the Father was doing and he did it. But he still prayed….and asked….The Father…..to raise Lazarus. Why didn't Jesus just stand on his own power and do the job and get it done? Remember that the crownd PRAISED GOD who gave that authority to men (Jesus).  It is written. Hi Mandy Yes, and remember many times the people gave glory to Yahshua and bowed down and “worshipped” him for the works he done, and not once can you find where Yahshua forbid them to do so. But how does his prayer and his raising Lazarus by his word negate what he said here?… That all men should honour the Son, “even as they honour the Father“. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth “my word”, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when “the dead shall “hear the voice of the Son of God“: and they that hear shall live“. In fact his words agree with their response to him and his actions. WJ

Here is worship in a biblical context.

shachah is the word used for “worship” in the OT, which means:

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Tiffany @ Oct. 17 2008,10:37)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2008,10:16) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2008,08:16) What did Yahshua pray? He said the Father always heard him but for their sakes he prayed. He saw what the Father was doing and he did it. But he still prayed….and asked….The Father…..to raise Lazarus. Why didn't Jesus just stand on his own power and do the job and get it done? Remember that the crownd PRAISED GOD who gave that authority to men (Jesus).  It is written. The one thing I think that Jesus cannot do and that is to forgive our Sins. For that we need to go through Jesus to our Almighty Father and ask Him for forgiveness of our sins. And it is sin that made the body die. Adams sin. So did Lazarus die. And in order for that all be forgiven, all have to go to our Almighty Father. So Jesus prayed for their sakes. Am I missing something? Peace and Love Irene

Hi tiffany

But that ye may know that “the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins“, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. Matt 9:6

WJ

[david]

Quote

Yes, and remember many times the people gave glory to Yahshua and bowed down and “worshipped” him for the works he done, and not once can you find where Yahshua forbid them to do so.

WJ, you know better than this.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 17 2008,10:59)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2008,10:35) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2008,10:16) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2008,08:16) What did Yahshua pray? He said the Father always heard him but for their sakes he prayed. He saw what the Father was doing and he did it. But he still prayed….and asked….The Father…..to raise Lazarus. Why didn't Jesus just stand on his own power and do the job and get it done? Remember that the crownd PRAISED GOD who gave that authority to men (Jesus).  It is written. Hi Mandy Yes, and remember many times the people gave glory to Yahshua and bowed down and “worshipped” him for the works he done, and not once can you find where Yahshua forbid them to do so. But how does his prayer and his raising Lazarus by his word negate what he said here?… That all men should honour the Son, “even as they honour the Father“. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth “my word”, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when “the dead shall “hear the voice of the Son of God“: and they that hear shall live“. In fact his words agree with their response to him and his actions. WJ Here is worship in a biblical context. shachah is the word used for “worship” in the OT, which means: worship bow bow down obeisance reverence fall down stoop crouch “shachah” is also translated as worshiped in the following verse: Genesis 24:26 Then the man bowed down and worshiped the LORD, It is also used in 1 Kings 1:23 and translated as “bowed”. And they told the king, saying, Behold Nathan the prophet. And when he was come in before the king, he bowed himself before the king with his face to the ground. Most verses that talk about worship are talking about worship to God. Other verses talk about (but do not encourage) worship toward idols or other gods. But there is also a legitimate use for worshipping Jesus as the son of God, or worshipping David as the King of Israel, or worship toward those who overcame etc. Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. So when you see the word worship with regards to God, Jesus, King David, overcomers etc, think of the word honour and praise. Jesus, King David, and those who are overcomers can be honoured and praised for what and who they are. But we do not honour/praise/worship any of them as God, except of course God. The worship of Jesus as the son of God and the lamb of God doesn't and never has supported the view that Jesus is God. Such a conclusion is only grasping desperately at straws in order to build a straw man.

Hi t8

And yet you cannot find one example of a child of God in the NT ascribing “proskeneo” worship to any other but the Father and Yeshua?

Who is being worshipped here t8?

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. ….And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, **Lord God Almighty**, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks “to him that sat on the throne”, who liveth for ever and ever, “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne”, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev 4:2, 3 and 4:8-11

Compare “…for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure* they are and were created”. with…

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: “all things were created *by him, and for him*“: Col 1:16

So again the contradictions pile up for you like a straw man.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2008,11:10)

Quote Yes, and remember many times the people gave glory to Yahshua and bowed down and “worshipped” him for the works he done, and not once can you find where Yahshua forbid them to do so. WJ, you know better than this.

David

No, you know he never did forbid worship to him nor point them to the Father when he was being worshipped.

Not Once.

WJ

[david]

Quote

Who is being worshipped here t8? And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. ….And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, **Lord God Almighty**, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks “to him that sat on the throne”, who liveth for ever and ever, “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne”, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev 4:2, 3 and 4:8-11

Unquestionably, it is Jehovah God the Almighty who is being worshipped here.

Let's look at the clues:

“ALMIGHTY”:

Shaddai (Heb. “Almighty”) and Pantokrator (Gk. “Almighty”) are repeatedly used with reference to Jehovah, the Father. (Ex 6:3; 2 Cor 6:18; Rev 19:6, Rev 4:8, etc) Neither of these expressions are ever applied to “Jesus” or “Christ.” Yet, the word “almighty” is applied to Jehovah 42 other times, from the very first occurrence of that word to the very last occurrence:
GENESIS 17:1
“When Abram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to Abram and said to him: “I am God Almighty. . . ..”
REVELATION 21:22 (King James Version)
“And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty AND Lamb ARE the temple of it.” (It’s clear in this verse that the Lamb, [Jesus] is distinguished and separate from the “Almighty” here. Both of them “are” spoken of. It does not say that the Almighty and Jesus “is,” but uses the plural: “are.”)
Since “Jehovah” is specifically and without question called “God” a thousand times in scripture, and many more without the actual use of his name, the “burden of proof” clearly rests on anyone who wants to prove that the words “God Almighty” refers to anyone but Jehovah.

“LORD GOD”:

The words “Lord God” never occur with reference to “Jesus,” although it does occur about 80 times with reference to Jesus’ Father, Jehovah. In all instances where the phrase occurs in the Greek scriptures, it is in reference to Jehovah, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. (Luke 1:32; 1 Peter 3:10-15; Revelation 11:17,19; 15:3; 16:7; 18:8; 21:11; 22:6)
The phrase “the Lord God” was used as a Greek substitute for the expression “Jehovah God”, that appears many times in the Old Testament. The expression “Lord God” occurs in many Bibles roughly 80 times. It never occurs with reference to the name “Jesus.” In fact, in the original languages, the expression found about 80 times is “Jehovah God.” The substitution of the word “Lord” and the removal of God’s name has confused many as to who this one is.
Likewise, with the phrases “the Lord our God” and “the Lord your God”: These phrases are always used in reference to Yahweh, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. — Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Deuteronomy 6:13; 10:20); Matthew 22:37 (Deuteronomy 6:5); Mark 12:29 (Deuteronomy 6:4); etc.
Since the words “Lord God” are definitely used with reference to Jehovah many times and nowhere specifically clearly used with reference to “Jesus,” the burden of proof rests on those who wish to prove that this scripture refers to anyone other than Jehovah.

“THE ONE WHO IS AND WHO WAS AND WHO IS TO COME”

As well, this verse is speaking of “the One who is and who was and who is to come.” In Revelation Revelation 1:5, we see greetings are given from the one “who is, and who was, and who is to come,” “and from Jesus Christ.” (NIV)
In verse 5 it’s obvious that the one “who is, and who was, and who is to come” is not Jesus Christ, because greetings are given from him “AND from Jesus Christ.

“HOLY HOLY HOLY”

Also, compare Revelation 4:8 where it says: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.” (NIV) We notice the phrase “holy, holy, holy” occurs only one other time in the Bible at Isaiah 6:3, and there it is referring to “Jehovah.” (Compare Rev 11:17)

Quote

Compare “…for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure* they are and were created”. with… For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: “all things were created *by him, and for him*”: Col 1:16

REVELATION 4:11
““…..because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.””

COLOSSIANS 1:16
“because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth. . . . All things have been created through him and for him.”

Yes, let's compare them.
Referring to Jesus, in Colossians, we see all things were created “through him” and “for him.”
In Revelation, we are told that because of this ones will all things were created. Jesus often spoke of his Father's will being done and not his own.
While Jehovah is the Creator, he created everything “through him” through Jesus and “for him.”

[david]

Quote

David No, you know he never did forbid worship to him nor point them to the Father when he was being worshipped. Not Once. WJ

He never directed worship to himself, but rather to the Father, as you know. But I was referring to you using the word “worship” as though you saying that word proves proskyneo means worship in those instances. The unwary may just not do any research and believe you.

PROVERBS 14:15
“Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps.”

[david]

WJ, I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the Coptic translation?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2008,11:32)

Quote David No, you know he never did forbid worship to him nor point them to the Father when he was being worshipped. Not Once. WJ He never directed worship to himself, but rather to the Father, as you know.  But I was referring to you using the word “worship” as though you saying that word proves proskyneo means worship in those instances.  The unwary may just not do any research and believe you.   PROVERBS 14:15 “Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps.”

David

Since the Father is “invisible” who is being worshipped here?…

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. ….And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, **Lord God Almighty**, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks “to him that sat on the throne”, who liveth for ever and ever, “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne”, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev 4:2, 3 and 4:8-11

Compare “…for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure* they are and were created”. with…

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: “all things were created *by him, and for him*“: Col 1:16

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2008,11:32)

Quote David No, you know he never did forbid worship to him nor point them to the Father when he was being worshipped. Not Once. WJ He never directed worship to himself, but rather to the Father, as you know.  But I was referring to you using the word “worship” as though you saying that word proves proskyneo means worship in those instances.  The unwary may just not do any research and believe you.   PROVERBS 14:15 “Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps.”

David

So why did Yahshua use the same word “proskuneo” for worship to the Father that was being practiced on him?

This is the only scripture that Yahshua gives us about “True Worship”.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship (proskuneo) him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24

So until you can give valid scriptural reasons for applying the word “proskuneo” to Yahshua in a different way than to the Father then I believe “proskuneo” worship is exclusive to the Father and Yahshua.

WJ

[david]

Quote

David Since the Father is “invisible” who is being worshipped here?…

Perhaps you could explain your reasoning a little better. Yes, the Father is invisible to human fleshly eyes. I can't see him, can you. Nor can I see Jesus. I'm not a spirit. They are. As are the angels.

1 JOHN 3:2
“Beloved ones, now we are children of God, but as yet it has not been made manifest what we shall be. We do know that whenever he is made manifest we shall be like him, because we shall see him just as he is.”

Those in heaven, who have been made spirit creatures, will obviously see him, “just as he is.”

I'm still not sure what your point is.

Countless times, all those titles are applied to Jehovah God the Almighty and not Jesus. The burden of proof rests very heavily on your shoulders to prove that this case is different from the hundreds of others.

[david]

Quote

This is the only scripture that Yahshua gives us about “True Worship”. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship (proskuneo) him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24

“Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Mat 4:10)

Here we have Satan trying to get an act of worship or reverence or whatever you want to call it, out of Jesus. Note who Jesus directs attention to as deserving of this? To “him alone” must you render sacred service.” And where “it is written” as he says, he is quoting from the Hebrew scriptures saying: “It is Jehovah your God you must worship.”

[david]

WJ, although I enjoy and have enjoyed these many conversations on the word Proskyneo and its MANY meanings, I would rather focus on an area of interest right now–John 1:1 and the coptic version.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2008,12:08)

Quote David Since the Father is “invisible” who is being worshipped here?… Perhaps you could explain your reasoning a little better.  Yes, the Father is invisible to human fleshly eyes.  I can't see him, can you.  Nor can I see Jesus.  I'm not a spirit.  They are.  As are the angels. 1 JOHN 3:2 “Beloved ones, now we are children of God, but as yet it has not been made manifest what we shall be. We do know that whenever he is made manifest we shall be like him, because we shall see him just as he is.” Those in heaven, who have been made spirit creatures, will obviously see him, “just as he is.” I'm still not sure what your point is. Countless times, all those titles are applied to Jehovah God the Almighty and not Jesus.  The burden of proof rests very heavily on your shoulders to prove that this case is different from the hundreds of others.

David

The point is John saw him who sat on the throne.

Yet John writes 2 times “No one has seen God”.

No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. John 1:18 NET

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:12

And Jesus said…

(Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God – “he has seen the Father”.) John 6:46 NET

So Either it is Yahshua who is the “Image of the Invisible God” or you have a contradiction.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2008,12:14)

Quote This is the only scripture that Yahshua gives us about “True Worship”. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship (proskuneo) him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24 “Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Mat 4:10) Here we have Satan trying to get an act of worship or reverence or whatever you want to call it, out of Jesus.  Note who Jesus directs attention to as deserving of this?  To “him alone” must you render sacred service.”  And where “it is written” as he says, he is quoting from the Hebrew scriptures saying: “It is Jehovah your God you must worship.”

David

That only solidifies my point.

The Devil tried to get Yahshua to falsly “proskuneo” him and yet Yahshua uses the same “proskuneo” for true worship to the Father.

WJ

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