JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2008,06:00)

Hi E, If the bible does not mention any trinity should we search for support for this theory elsewhere? Vain human intellectualism is a futile exercise is it not if truth is what we seek?

Nick, your superficial reading, and for that matter, responses, ARE most obvious once again lol…. I did not suggest that you go outside of the bible for proof of the Trinity! David has asked for feedback concerning the Sahidic version of John 1:1, I gave it to him. Secondly, I was merely pointing out where the info he was quoting probably originally came from, since the site he said he had originally copied and pasted the material in his post above was gone, I thought that even though I did not and do not agree with him or any antitrinitarians, I would still try and help him out, and any others interested in this subject, by providing a resource for all antitrinitarians. So he additional information is not in support of the Trinity at all!! Its in fact against it!! LOL!

blessings,
Ken

[epistemaniac]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 07 2008,06:22)

Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 07 2008,00:34) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 05 2008,01:58) Hi t8 Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2008,13:44) Is the Father the image of the invisible God? Yes, if the Father who is invisible makes himself visible. Would the “image” you see not be God? Again, you reduce Gods image to being less than God therefore creating a false image of God! WJ Let's put your words to the test. The test is scripture. 1 Timothy 6:15-16 15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. So according to Paul, no one can see God and no one has seen God. So your bit about the invisible God being visible is incorrect. Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. If Jesus were God, then according to Paul, Jesus would be invisible and no one could see him or has seen him. Wake up WJ, it is time for you to put away this folly. It is silly to teach that the invisible God is visible. I think you can see that it is a is a blatant contradiction. At least be honest with yourself if you can't admit it publicly. But… here is the rest of the story… “The question why the Son is called “The Word” may be answered by saying that the term expresses both his nature and his office. The word is that which reveals. The Son is the εἰκών and ἀπαύγασμα of God, and therefore his word. It is his office to make God known to his creatures. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him. The Son, therefore, as the revealer of God, is the Word.” Hodge, C. Systematic Theology (504). Grand Rapids, MI: Christian Classics Ethereal Library. So according to all of Scripture, on this issue, no one has seen God, however, the Son has come as a declarer of God…. and the Son is, as the writer of Hebrews also states, the “exact representation of His nature”…. and, those who have seen Christ have seen the Father. For we have the very words of Christ Jesus Himself who said (John 14:9 ESV)  Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?” To see Jesus, is to see God.  Therefore Paul's words in 1 Tim. must refer to God the Father, who is spirit, and the human eye cannot see “spirit”, and not to Jesus, further reinforcing the doctrine of the Trinity, as there is a distinction being made in reference to the Father, which humans are physically unable to see, and Jesus, who's role it was to make God visible to us. blessings, Ken Hi epistemaniac Excellent points! WJ

Thank you and blessings to you for fighting the good fight! keep on keeping on!!

1 Peter 3:15 (ESV) but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

Jude 1:3-4 (ESV) 3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Galatians 6:9 (ESV) And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

blessings,
Ken

[epistemaniac]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 07 2008,07:00)

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 05 2008,01:58) Hi t8 Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2008,13:44) Is the Father the image of the invisible God? Yes, if the Father who is invisible makes himself visible. Would the “image” you see not be God? Again, you reduce Gods image to being less than God therefore creating a false image of God! WJ Let's put your words to the test. The test is scripture. 1 Timothy 6:15-16 15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. So according to Paul, no one can see God and no one has seen God. So your bit about the invisible God being visible is incorrect. Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. If Jesus were God, then according to Paul, Jesus would be invisible and no one could see him or has seen him. Wake up WJ, it is time for you to put away this folly. It is silly to teach that the invisible God is visible. I think you can see that it is a is a blatant contradiction. At least be honest with yourself if you can't admit it publicly. Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31) So according to Paul, no one can see God and no one has seen God. John also said the same thing… No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. John 1:18 NET No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:12 But wait…. Yahshua says… (Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God – “he has seen the Father”.) John 6:46 NET Question is “why would the Apostle John say “no one' has seen God at any time unless John knew that Yahshua is “the true God”, the Word that was with God and was God. So if no one has seen God then it is imparitive that Yahshua not being a part of the “no one” is also the “True God”. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. “This one is the true God and eternal life“. 1 John 5:20 WJ

Excellent points!! God sees His own reflection in the face of Jesus, doesn't He? So while it is true that no one has seen God, God has certainly, seen Himself! John 1:1 says that Jesus was “pros” with the Father, He was face to face with Him, equals, as it were. Robertson's Word Pictures says “Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other.”

blessings,
Ken

[epistemaniac]

Quote

The millstone awaits those who would upset the faith of God's little ones.

That is EXACTLY why you need to be fearful Nick, I fear for your soul, I really do!

blessings,
Ken

[Tiffany]

Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 08 2008,00:13)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 07 2008,07:00) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 05 2008,01:58) Hi t8 Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2008,13:44) Is the Father the image of the invisible God? Yes, if the Father who is invisible makes himself visible. Would the “image” you see not be God? Again, you reduce Gods image to being less than God therefore creating a false image of God! WJ Let's put your words to the test. The test is scripture. 1 Timothy 6:15-16 15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. So according to Paul, no one can see God and no one has seen God. So your bit about the invisible God being visible is incorrect. Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. If Jesus were God, then according to Paul, Jesus would be invisible and no one could see him or has seen him. Wake up WJ, it is time for you to put away this folly. It is silly to teach that the invisible God is visible. I think you can see that it is a is a blatant contradiction. At least be honest with yourself if you can't admit it publicly. Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31) So according to Paul, no one can see God and no one has seen God. John also said the same thing… No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. John 1:18 NET No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:12 But wait…. Yahshua says… (Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God – “he has seen the Father”.) John 6:46 NET Question is “why would the Apostle John say “no one' has seen God at any time unless John knew that Yahshua is “the true God”, the Word that was with God and was God. So if no one has seen God then it is imparitive that Yahshua not being a part of the “no one” is also the “True God”. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. “This one is the true God and eternal life“. 1 John 5:20 WJ Excellent points!! God sees His own reflection in the face of Jesus, doesn't He? So while it is true that no one has seen God, God has certainly, seen Himself! John 1:1 says that Jesus was “pros” with the Father, He was face to face with Him, equals, as it were. Robertson's Word Pictures says “Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other.” blessings, Ken

It still does not prove the trinity doctrine. Because of Ephesians 4:6 tells us that there is only one God the Father, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. By God's Holy Spirit we become one with the Father and Jesus.
Lets not forget that the name God is only a title, they both have other names. Jehovah is His name , He alone is above all. Yahshua is the Son of God. Just because He was face to face with Jehovah God His Father, does not make them equal. In fact Jesus said so, that the Father is greater then I. So are you going to call Jesus a liar? I hope not.

There are many God's, even Satan is called God of this world.
And the whole world is deceived, only a few are called out right now. The road to destruction is wide, while the road of righteousness is narrow and steep, and few will find it.

Peace and Love Irene

[epistemaniac]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 07 2008,07:50)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2008,07:34) Hi WJ, If you acknowledge the Father as God why do you teach that His Son is primarily to be worshipped? Why not follow the Son and worship his Father and God? You do not worship a trinity do you? Hi NH If the Father is the invisible God then who is being worshipped in Revelation chapter 4? WJ

Exactly, all who are not worshiping Jesus, will be excluded from the company of heaven, because it is to Him that every knee will bow…. of course the bible also says that every knee will bow to God the Father and that He is the only God… Isa 45:22-23 esv Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. (23) By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.” While at the same time it also says Php 2:10-11 esv so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, (11) and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
So there is only 1 God, but we are told by some that Jesus is not God, though he may be “a god” or a “lesser god”. These are lies, the bible is clear, there is only one true God and if Jesus is not in union with, in essences the same God as the one true God, then He is a false god, and not to be worshipped. The Bible also says, however, that God has sworn to Himself that every knee will bow to Him, but it is also said to be the case that every knee will bow (a position of worship) to Jesus. So which is it? Both? In what sense? If Jesus is not God He is not worthy of our praise, our worship, our honor, and in fact, to honor Him in those ways would be idolatry and would be blaspheming God. Once again, it is the doctrine of the trinity that best makes sense of these issues.

also, if the angels are to worship the Son, we ought to as well….
Hebrews 1:5-6 (ESV) 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”? 6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

Because the bible is very clear that we are not to worship anyone but God, and since the angels worship Jesus, and this is spoken of in a positive light, in other words they are not criticized for worshiping Jesus, it is very clear that Jesus must be God, otherwise the Bible contradicts itself by saying on the one hand we are not to have any other gods before the one true God, (“Exodus 34:14 (ESV) (for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God)”) while on the other the bible speaks of worship being given to the Son. Either Jesus is God or the Bible contradicts itself.

And to all who want to try and say that Jesus is some kind of “lesser god”, the Bible says Deuteronomy 8:19 (ESV) And if you forget the Lord your God and go after other gods and serve them and worship them, I solemnly warn you today that you shall surely perish.”
After all, those who lower Jesus' ontological status and say that He is a lesser god, still “go after Him” by saying that He is the Savior, the Messiah, the only way to the Father, etc. So if Jesus is not essentially one with the Father, God in the same way the Father is God, all those who “go after Jesus” are guilty of “going after other gods” and will be receiving severe punishment for their blasphemous idolatry.

blessings,
Ken

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2008,08:26)

Hi WJ, We reveal to the best of our limited knowledge and ability what is written in scripture, the bread of life. No trinity is found there but you still espouse it?

Just because YOU have not found it, it hardly follows that it is not there….. keep looking N…. maybe someday the scales will fall off and you will see…. but you must come to the Scriptures ready to believe them and nothing else…. not the vain traditions of man…. not the theologies of the modalists, t8, or any other man made philosophy which wrongly lowers Jesus to a level of creature versus His being worthy of worship… you must adhere only to the Scriptures N, and you must come to them in a humble, teachable way, armed with the best skills of understanding (hermeneutics, exegesis, etc) that you can bring ti the table… and you must stop being so superficial…. your reading skills, your understanding of the Scriptures are just like your reading of posts on this forum… you lack judgment and understanding because you either lack the ability or the willingness to think deeply about these matters….. perhaps then…. perhaps then….. you will see… if the Lord wills it and you are granted grace and mercy…. perhaps then…. perhaps then….

blessings,
E

[Tiffany]

Quote (Tiffany @ Oct. 08 2008,01:37)

Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 08 2008,00:13) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 07 2008,07:00) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 05 2008,01:58) Hi t8 Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2008,13:44) Is the Father the image of the invisible God? Yes, if the Father who is invisible makes himself visible. Would the “image” you see not be God? Again, you reduce Gods image to being less than God therefore creating a false image of God! WJ Let's put your words to the test. The test is scripture. 1 Timothy 6:15-16 15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. So according to Paul, no one can see God and no one has seen God. So your bit about the invisible God being visible is incorrect. Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. If Jesus were God, then according to Paul, Jesus would be invisible and no one could see him or has seen him. Wake up WJ, it is time for you to put away this folly. It is silly to teach that the invisible God is visible. I think you can see that it is a is a blatant contradiction. At least be honest with yourself if you can't admit it publicly. Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31) So according to Paul, no one can see God and no one has seen God. John also said the same thing… No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. John 1:18 NET No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:12 But wait…. Yahshua says… (Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God – “he has seen the Father”.) John 6:46 NET Question is “why would the Apostle John say “no one' has seen God at any time unless John knew that Yahshua is “the true God”, the Word that was with God and was God. So if no one has seen God then it is imparitive that Yahshua not being a part of the “no one” is also the “True God”. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. “This one is the true God and eternal life“. 1 John 5:20 WJ Excellent points!! God sees His own reflection in the face of Jesus, doesn't He? So while it is true that no one has seen God, God has certainly, seen Himself! John 1:1 says that Jesus was “pros” with the Father, He was face to face with Him, equals, as it were. Robertson's Word Pictures says “Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other.” blessings, Ken It still does not prove the trinity doctrine. Because of Ephesians 4:6 tells us that there is only one God the Father, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. By God's Holy Spirit we become one with the Father and Jesus. Lets not forget that the name God is only a title, they both have other names. Jehovah is His name , He alone is above all.  Yahshua is the Son of God. Just because He was face to face with Jehovah God His Father, does not make them equal. In fact Jesus said so, that the Father is greater then I. So are you going to call Jesus a liar? I hope not. There are many God's, even Satan is called God of this world. And the whole world is deceived, only a few are called out right now. The road to destruction is wide, while the road of righteousness is narrow and steep, and few will find it. Peace and Love Irene

Since e came before my post I just want to make sure you read my post. And I want to add, that Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings, but only in the Millinium. After that Jesus gives all back to the Father.
1 Corinth. 15:28 Now when all things are made subjec t to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Irene

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Tiffany @ Oct. 08 2008,01:37)

Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 08 2008,00:13) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 07 2008,07:00) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 05 2008,01:58) Hi t8 Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2008,13:44) Is the Father the image of the invisible God? Yes, if the Father who is invisible makes himself visible. Would the “image” you see not be God? Again, you reduce Gods image to being less than God therefore creating a false image of God! WJ Let's put your words to the test. The test is scripture. 1 Timothy 6:15-16 15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. So according to Paul, no one can see God and no one has seen God. So your bit about the invisible God being visible is incorrect. Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. If Jesus were God, then according to Paul, Jesus would be invisible and no one could see him or has seen him. Wake up WJ, it is time for you to put away this folly. It is silly to teach that the invisible God is visible. I think you can see that it is a is a blatant contradiction. At least be honest with yourself if you can't admit it publicly. Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31) So according to Paul, no one can see God and no one has seen God. John also said the same thing… No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. John 1:18 NET No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:12 But wait…. Yahshua says… (Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God – “he has seen the Father”.) John 6:46 NET Question is “why would the Apostle John say “no one' has seen God at any time unless John knew that Yahshua is “the true God”, the Word that was with God and was God. So if no one has seen God then it is imparitive that Yahshua not being a part of the “no one” is also the “True God”. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. “This one is the true God and eternal life“. 1 John 5:20 WJ Excellent points!! God sees His own reflection in the face of Jesus, doesn't He? So while it is true that no one has seen God, God has certainly, seen Himself! John 1:1 says that Jesus was “pros” with the Father, He was face to face with Him, equals, as it were. Robertson's Word Pictures says “Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other.” blessings, Ken It still does not prove the trinity doctrine. Because of Ephesians 4:6 tells us that there is only one God the Father, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. By God's Holy Spirit we become one with the Father and Jesus. Lets not forget that the name God is only a title, they both have other names. Jehovah is His name , He alone is above all.  Yahshua is the Son of God. Just because He was face to face with Jehovah God His Father, does not make them equal. In fact Jesus said so, that the Father is greater then I. So are you going to call Jesus a liar? I hope not. There are many God's, even Satan is called God of this world. And the whole world is deceived, only a few are called out right now. The road to destruction is wide, while the road of righteousness is narrow and steep, and few will find it. Peace and Love Irene

well your post has certainly done noting to disprove the doctrine of the Trinity….

at any rate, the point at this juncture is to say that for those who say that Jesus is a lesser God, and lets face it, John 1:1 says that Jesus is God (or as some say “a god”), that if there is only one true God (and there is) either Jesus is in some way of the same essence as the Father, OR,  Jesus simply has to be a false god.

Now since John 1:1 says “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (ESV) I have to ask you, are YOU calling God a liar? If Jesus is God, as the word of God says, who are you or anyone else to say otherwise? Yes, Eph. 4:6, as well as a multitude of other places in the Scripture says that there is only one true God.. since Jesus IS God, either Jesus is the true God or He is a false God, there is no room for another choice, He must be one or the other. Now Trinitarians have the capacity within their system of biblical thought to handle this situation, because we say that Jesus is of the same essence  as the Father (and the Spirit) and thus, there is only 1 God, but that this God has 3 different personages within it, 1 God, 3 persons. However, those who deny that Jesus is God first of all flatly deny the plain teaching of Scripture which DOES teach that Jesus is God, secondly not only do they deny that Jesus is God, thus denying the Scriptures, they often try and come up with their own man made theories to deal with this situation, eg JW's and others who says that Jerus is a “lesser god” or that He is “the mighty god” versus the “almighty god”. This simply won't do. If Jesus is a lesser god or the mighty god, or any other way people want to try and make a difference without a distinction, then he is still a false god since there is only 1 true god.

As far as the “Father is greater than I” type of passages, I see that you did not read the other post in this thread that addresses this is issue, but thats ok, there has been a lot written… here it is again for you:

Quote

As far as the “greater than” references go: “JOHN 14:28—Did Jesus think of himself a s less than God? MISINTERPRETATION: Jesus said in John 14:28, “The Father is greater than I.” The Jehovah’s Witnesses say this verse proves that Jesus is a lesser god than the Father. Because Jehovah is “greater” than Jesus, Jesus cannot be God Almighty (Let God Be True, 1946, 110). According to Christian Science, this verse proves that “Christ is not God, but an impartation of Him,” just as “one ray of light is light, and it is one with light, but it is not the full-orbed sun” (Eddy, 1901, 8). CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: The Father is greater than the Son by office, but not by nature, since both are God (see John 1:1; 8:58; 10:30; 20:28). Just as an earthly father is equally human with but holds a higher office than his son, even so the Father and the Son in the Trinity are equal in essence, but different in function. There is no contradiction in affirming ontological equality and functional hierarchy. In like manner, we speak of the President of our country as being greater, not by virtue of his character or nature, but by virtue of his position. Jesus cannot ever be said to say that he considered himself anything less than God by nature. Geisler, N. L., & Rhodes, R. (1997). When cultists ask : A popular handbook on cultic misinterpretations (184). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.

Further on this point, perhaps you are currently married, or some day will be. When you are, or if you are, your husband will be “greater” than you. Hurry and go tell him this if you are married, it will make his day! How is your husband greater than you? In Eph 5 we are told that man is the head of the wife, that wives should submit to their husbands just as husbands should submit to Christ. Now, since wives have to submit to their husbands, this means, according to the reasoning of those who want to insist that for Jesus to say that the Father is “greater” that this MUST mean that somehow the Father is of a different order of being or said another way, that the Father is ontologically greater than Jesus, that since this is the case, then men MUST also be ontologically superior creatures to women. After all, men are the head of women and wives are to submit/be submissive to their husbands. So this absolutely proves that men are superior to women doesn't it? Not really. You see even though wives are to submit to their husbands, they are in no way inferior to men in general or their husbands in particular. Its just that within the family there are differing roles for men and women, and in this role, within the sphere of the family, women are to submit to men, not because men are somehow superior to women and women are somehow inherently inferior to men, but because of their roles within the family. So too, then, when Jesus says that the Father is “greater” than He is. Its not that the Father is ontologically superior, after all, John 1:1 says that Jesus is God, just as the Father/Jehovah/Yahweh is God. No, rather it is the case that in their roles, in creation, in salvation, etc, the Son has chosen to be submissive to the Father. As to their roles, the Father is greater than the Son, I freely acknowledge this, so no, silly, I do not think that Jesus is lying about this. What I am saying is that while the Son has willingly humbled Himself, even to death on the Cross, and chosen to be submissive to the Father, always doing the will of the Father, this does not mean that this also NECESSARILY means that the Father is a greater order of being or is ontologically superior to Jesus. Just as men and women are equals on an ontological level, so too the Son and the Father are ontological equals. after all, if a man and woman beget a child, that child is the same order of being that they are, right? Well the Bible says that the Son of God is “the ONLY begotten” of the Father, so too, then, like begets like, the Son is God because the Father is God.

As far as my saying that John 1:1 proves that Jesus is equal to the father, in case you misssed it, I was referring to Greek expert Ropbertson's Word Pictures where he is the one who says that jesus is “pros ton theon”: “Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other.” Robertson continues “And the Word was God (kai theos ēn ho logos). By exact and careful language John denied Sabellianism by not saying ho theos ēn ho logos. That would mean that all of God was expressed in ho logos and the terms would be interchangeable, each having the article. The subject is made plain by the article (ho logos) and the predicate without it (theos) just as in Joh_4:24 pneuma ho theos can only mean “God is spirit,” not “spirit is God.” So in 1Jo_4:16 ho theos agapē estin can only mean “God is love,” not “love is God” as a so-called Christian scientist would confusedly say. For the article with the predicate see Robertson, Grammar, pp. 767f. So in Joh_1:14 ho Logos sarx egeneto, “the Word became flesh,” not “the flesh became Word.” Luther argues that here John disposes of Arianism also because the Logos was eternally God, fellowship of Father and Son, what Origen called the Eternal Generation of the Son (each necessary to the other). Thus in the Trinity we see personal fellowship on an equality.”

I have never denied that there are many gods, that is why I have been careful to say “one true God”.

Lastly, you say

Quote

And the whole world is deceived, only a few are called out right now. The road to destruction is wide, while the road of righteousness is narrow and steep, and few will find it.

Amen, except that the whole world is not deceived, since Christians are “in” the world and not of it, apparently, since they ARE Christians, they are NOT deceived. But that point aside, I only hope that those who deny the plain Scriptural truth that Jesus is God, and not a false god, get off that road to destruction, for the road to destruction IS indeed wide, and many there are on it, even aside from those who deny these truths there are so many false religions out there… its sad really. But I am here to help in any way I can. I just put forth God's word and let Him work on hearts. You see Irene, God's word ALWAYS accomplishes it's purpose. If it goes out and hearts are softened and people become submissive to the word of God, then PRAISE GOD!! However, the word also goes forth and still accomplishes it's purpose even for those who do not turn aside form their false beliefs, for in their cases, their hearts are further hardened like Pharaoh's to the truth, every time they deny it.

blessings,
Ken

[NickHassan]

Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 08 2008,01:57)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2008,08:26) Hi WJ, We reveal to the best of our limited knowledge and ability what is written in scripture, the bread of life. No trinity is found there but you still espouse it? Just because YOU have not found it, it hardly follows that it is not there….. keep looking N…. maybe someday the scales will fall off and you will see…. but you must come to the Scriptures ready to believe them and nothing else…. not the vain traditions of man…. not the theologies of the modalists, t8, or any other man made philosophy which wrongly lowers Jesus to a level of creature versus His being worthy of worship… you must adhere only to the Scriptures N, and you must come to them in a humble, teachable way, armed with the best skills of understanding (hermeneutics, exegesis, etc) that you can bring ti the table… and you must stop being so superficial…. your reading skills, your understanding of the Scriptures are just like your reading of posts on this forum… you lack judgment and understanding because you either lack the ability or the willingness to think deeply about these matters….. perhaps then…. perhaps then….. you will see… if the Lord wills it and you are granted grace and mercy…. perhaps then…. perhaps then…. blessings, E

Hi E,
Then where is this TRINITY TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE?
Did the TEACHER mention it?
Should we go elsewhere?

Surely you do not mean we have to read between the lines?

[NickHassan]

Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 07 2008,23:38)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2008,06:00) Hi E, If the bible does not mention any trinity should we search for support for this theory elsewhere? Vain human intellectualism is a futile exercise is it not if truth is what we seek? Nick, your superficial reading, and for that matter, responses, ARE most obvious once again lol…. I did not suggest that you go outside of the bible for proof of the Trinity! David has asked for feedback concerning the Sahidic version of John 1:1, I gave it to him. Secondly, I was merely pointing out where the info he was quoting probably originally came from, since the site he said he had originally copied and pasted the material in his post above was gone, I thought that even though I did not and do not agree with him or any antitrinitarians, I would still try and help him out, and any others interested in this subject, by providing a resource for all antitrinitarians. So he additional information is not in support of the Trinity at all!! Its in fact against it!! LOL! blessings, Ken

Hi E,
Should we seek to be entertainers who use long clever words?

Is that the way to follow Jesus?

Or just another vanity?

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
Is the good fight for the perpetuation of man's traditional doctines?
Is that how we are to show faithfulness to God?

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2008,18:26)

Hi E, Why should anyone follow your lead in studying hermeneutics if it has led you to conclude that God is a trinity when scripture never teaches such things? How can studying scripture find what is not written??

The fact that you are refusing to study hermeneutics, which is simply learning to interpret Scriptures by taking into account figures of speech (parables, metphors, didactic passages, etc) speaks volumes for where you are in your very superficial understanding of scripture, and that since you won't, sadly, its all you will apparently ever have.

As to your last question,

In your case, apparently only by obstinately refusing to see the truth.

blessings,
Ken

[epistemaniac]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 07 2008,18:42)

Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 07 2008,00:34) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 05 2008,01:58) Hi t8 Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2008,13:44) Is the Father the image of the invisible God? Yes, if the Father who is invisible makes himself visible. Would the “image” you see not be God? Again, you reduce Gods image to being less than God therefore creating a false image of God! WJ Let's put your words to the test. The test is scripture. 1 Timothy 6:15-16 15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. So according to Paul, no one can see God and no one has seen God. So your bit about the invisible God being visible is incorrect. Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. If Jesus were God, then according to Paul, Jesus would be invisible and no one could see him or has seen him. Wake up WJ, it is time for you to put away this folly. It is silly to teach that the invisible God is visible. I think you can see that it is a is a blatant contradiction. At least be honest with yourself if you can't admit it publicly. But… here is the rest of the story… “The question why the Son is called “The Word” may be answered by saying that the term expresses both his nature and his office. The word is that which reveals. The Son is the εἰκών and ἀπαύγασμα of God, and therefore his word. It is his office to make God known to his creatures. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him. The Son, therefore, as the revealer of God, is the Word.” Hodge, C. Systematic Theology (504). Grand Rapids, MI: Christian Classics Ethereal Library. So according to all of Scripture, on this issue, no one has seen God, however, the Son has come as a declarer of God…. and the Son is, as the writer of Hebrews also states, the “exact representation of His nature”…. and, those who have seen Christ have seen the Father. For we have the very words of Christ Jesus Himself who said (John 14:9 ESV)  Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?” To see Jesus, is to see God.  Therefore Paul's words in 1 Tim. must refer to God the Father, who is spirit, and the human eye cannot see “spirit”, and not to Jesus, further reinforcing the doctrine of the Trinity, as there is a distinction being made in reference to the Father, which humans are physically unable to see, and Jesus, who's role it was to make God visible to us. blessings, Ken Hi E. You admitted that God is God the Father and that he is invisible. That is progress. Now read 10 of these verses at random and try and replace the word God with Trinity and watch that doctrine make a complete hash of interpreting the scriptures. https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htm In other words the true God mentioned in scripture is the Father. God is the Father and he is invisible. The Word is Yeshua and he is visible and in body form. God is not the Trinity, he is the Father. Also if God was the Trinity, then you can't use the word 'him' when referring to him. The trinity Doctrine requires that God is called THEM, not HIM. Thanks for listening.

as soon as you can tell me how Jesus is god, but not the true God, and yet not therefore a false God… perhaps I will read your verses.

However, Lets suppose, for the sake of argument, that the verses do not make any sense by substituting words. What does that prove? Nothing. Does that disprove the Trinity? Hardly. Trying to make verses say other than what the original authors intended them to say is altering the Scriptures, and I would rather not follow you in your (apparent) practice of doing so.

As far as your stating that I would have to refer to the Trinity as a “them”, I see no reason why I should suppose that I MUST do anything you say. And ESPECIALLY since the doctrine of the Trinity continues to affirm an essential singularity in the essence of the Godhead, after all even those who oppose the Trinity know that those who do affirm it speak of God as 1 God in 3 persons, disagree or not, like it or not, its common knowledge that we refer to God as a singularity as to His deity, and therefore using singular masculine terms to refer to God seems perfectly fine to me, thanks anyway though.

You are welcome by the way….

blessings,
Ken

[epistemaniac]

Quote (david @ Oct. 07 2008,12:40)

Quote So how many Gods or gods are there for you brother David; one is almighty and other is small 'god' or mighty god. Am I correct ? Golli, I think if we understood what “god” means, this would be easier to understand.  It is a word that means “strong one” or “powerful one.” And while many have certain degrees of power, some more than others, there is only one who is above all, only one who is AL mighty.  Hence, while Jesus is called a god, he is not the God of Jehovah.  Rather, it is the reverse.  Compared to Jesus, Jehovah is mighty and hence, God.  In the days of Israel, the judges were called gods (compared to the other Israelites because of the power they had.)  The angels were called gods, because they obviously have more power or strenght than humans.  And Jesus, of course, if these ones have power and strength, Jesus has a lot more and hence, can obviously be called a God.  But this doesn't make him the Almighty God, “the” God of the Bible. I think we often think of a

thats strange…. I thought that JW's (you are a JW… right?) taught that Jesus is “the mighty god” while Jehovah is the “almighty God”…..

“He is the “mighty God” as is referenced in Isaiah 9:6, “For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us, and the government will rest on His shoulders, and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” Therefore, they (JW's) say that Jesus is the mighty god, but not the Almighty God.” (CARM)

“The WBS (Watchtower Bible Society) does concede here that Isaiah 9:6 is fulfilled in the man Jesus of Nazareth, and that He is the Messiah. However, they then argue that Christ Jesus is Mighty God, but that He is not Jehovah–the Almighty God–because the text of Isaiah doesn’t have “the” in it. The truth remains though, that the Bible itself knows nothing of an Almighty God, and a lesser “Mighty” God.” (Apprising Scriptures; Awakening to the Light of Scripture)

“Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (kjv)
Jehovah’s Witnesses do not question that this verse speaks prophetically of Jesus Christ, identifying him as the “Mighty God” (nwt). But they believe that the Son is mere “a god”—one of the “many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’ ” (1 Cor. 8:5, nwt)—just as Satan, the devil, is called “the god of this system of things” (2 Cor. 4:4, nwt). They see Jesus Christ as a created being, an angel. According to Watchtower theology, he is definitely not Almighty God Jehovah.
The Witnesses actually have two gods, a big one and a little one: an “Almighty God,” Jehovah—and a “mighty god,” Jesus Christ. In practice, though, Jehovah gets all the worship, and Jesus is only called “a god” by way of concession.
Reed, D. A. (1997, c1986). Jehovah's Witnesses : Answered verse by verse.

blessings,
Ken

[epistemaniac]

Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,15:57)

Hi WJ Long post I’ll break it into smaller chunks as time allows… Quote Really? And just how is it that two separate beings can be “Omnipotent”? Two separate beings cannot have all power. How can a “finite being” have infinite power? However one can. The point is the attribute that the Father has “omnipotence’, Yeshua also has. They are One! The question was…“Can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has of which Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?”. You have not answered the question for Yeshua has all authority and power. 1 – I did not say 2 separate beings were omnipotent. That is the point – Jesus can hardly be called omnipotent if he needed to have all authority handed to him… 2- you begin your statement by rightly illustrating the impossibility for more than one to be truly omnipotent, then end it by saying that 2 (the Father and Yeshua) both share omnipotence. It can hardly be omnipotence if it is shared – it is co-nipotence at best (just made that word up btw ;)) 3 – you can run this same simple truth over omniscience and the attribute of being eternal also. 4 – Yeshua has all authority (exuousia) why? Because it has been given to him by the Father, the like figure of which Joseph received all authority to govern Egypt on behalf of and by Pharaoh. Quote Post incarnation. Paul in Phil 2 disagrees with you and says that Yeshua who is in the “form of God” emptied himself and did recieve it again. As I understand it is is GOD who emptied Himself into Jesus to fully indwell him at Jordan. Jesus on the other hand was willing to relinquish any position he had with GOD in the SPIRIT in order to be formed into flesh to be the tabernacle for GOD on earth. Essentially it was a shifting of the Heavenly pattern onto the earth. What Jesus received back was that former position with GOD, only now with the added authority of intercession between the fallen sons of Adam and his Father. When it says he was in the ‘form of  GOD’ you have to bear in mind it is not saying he IS GOD. ‘Form of’ and ‘Image of’ do not mean ‘is GOD’. Quote This is truly a fallacious argument for it does not speak to the ontological nature of Yeshua who is the Word/God. All sons of GOD are WORD children by HIS SPIRIT. That is how we can be one as he is one with his Father. Yet I do not see that as millions of GODs, it is ONE GOD and HIS Family. Imo 😉

you are a Modalist then….?

you said, in particular

Quote

As I understand it is is GOD who emptied Himself into Jesus to fully indwell him at Jordan.

But the Scripture does not say that that it is God who emptied Himself “into” Jesus at all, it says that Jesu emptied HIMSELF: Philippians 2:4-8 (ESV) 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”

The passage then changes referents and THEN begins to speak of God the Father (versus Christ Jesus the Son) Philippians 2:9 (ESV) Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,” etc

So no…. your understanding is eisiogesis, a reading into the text of your theology, and is not actually present within the text of the Scirpture itself….. just thought you should know

blessings,
Ken

[NickHassan]

Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 08 2008,11:06)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2008,18:26) Hi E, Why should anyone follow your lead in studying hermeneutics if it has led you to conclude that God is a trinity when scripture never teaches such things? How can studying scripture find what is not written?? The fact that you are refusing to study hermeneutics, which is simply learning to interpret Scriptures by taking into account figures of speech (parables, metphors, didactic passages, etc) speaks volumes for where you are in your very superficial understanding of scripture, and that since you won't, sadly, its all you will apparently ever have. As to your last question, In your case, apparently only by obstinately refusing to see the truth. blessings, Ken

Hi E,
If what you say
is truth
why is it not written?

[epistemaniac]

opps…. never mind

[epistemaniac]

never mind here as well….

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
Can you tack together some inferences
and try to make one truth out of them
or is scriptural truth written?

[Author]

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