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Hi E,
If the bible does not mention any trinity should we search for support for this theory elsewhere?
Vain human intellectualism is a futile exercise is it not if truth is what we seek?Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 07 2008,00:34) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 05 2008,01:58) Hi t8 Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2008,13:44)
Is the Father the image of the invisible God?Yes, if the Father who is invisible makes himself visible. Would the “image” you see not be God?
Again, you reduce Gods image to being less than God therefore creating a false image of God!
WJ
Let's put your words to the test.
The test is scripture.1 Timothy 6:15-16
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.So according to Paul, no one can see God and no one has seen God.
So your bit about the invisible God being visible is incorrect.
Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. If Jesus were God, then according to Paul, Jesus would be invisible and no one could see him or has seen him.
Wake up WJ, it is time for you to put away this folly.
It is silly to teach that the invisible God is visible.
I think you can see that it is a is a blatant contradiction.
At least be honest with yourself if you can't admit it publicly.
But… here is the rest of the story… “The question why the Son is called “The Word” may be answered by saying that the term expresses both his nature and his office. The word is that which reveals. The Son is the εἰκών and ἀπαύγασμα of God, and therefore his word. It is his office to make God known to his creatures. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him. The Son, therefore, as the revealer of God, is the Word.”Hodge, C. Systematic Theology (504). Grand Rapids, MI: Christian Classics Ethereal Library.
So according to all of Scripture, on this issue, no one has seen God, however, the Son has come as a declarer of God…. and the Son is, as the writer of Hebrews also states, the “exact representation of His nature”…. and, those who have seen Christ have seen the Father. For we have the very words of Christ Jesus Himself who said (John 14:9 ESV) Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”
To see Jesus, is to see God. Therefore Paul's words in 1 Tim. must refer to God the Father, who is spirit, and the human eye cannot see “spirit”, and not to Jesus, further reinforcing the doctrine of the Trinity, as there is a distinction being made in reference to the Father, which humans are physically unable to see, and Jesus, who's role it was to make God visible to us.
blessings,
Ken
Hi epistemaniacExcellent points!
WJ
Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 07 2008,00:54) Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 06 2008,22:09) Good posts brother T8,
At the same time please say that there can be no other Gods besides our Father in this whole universe. Please don't be confused with the word 'theos' which is wrongly translated for princes and judges in greek. These so called gods can not be confused with our True God Father.Thanks and peace to you
Adam
This such a great point… the Bible is so very clear… there is only 1 true God…. but as David and other JW's and other inconsistent Unitarians of various stripes admit, the bible refers to Jesus as being God, or, for the sake of argument, lets say “a god”… But… and here is the crucial point…. if there is only one true God, and Jesus is a god, then by resistless logic, by the application of the law of the excluded middle, Jesus simply HAS to be a false god!! Of course, that cannot be true! Its blasphemous to think so. Therefore, Jesus has to be, in some profound essential way, a part of the one true God's very nature, or as the ancient creed so well puts it, Jesus is:
“God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;”.
And this is exactly what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches. It resolves this biblical conundrum, and without it, the Bible explicitly contradicts itself by saying that there can only be 1 true God, and that Jesus is god or a god, yet Jesus is spoken of throughout the bible in a favorable sense, as the Messiah, as the Savior, as God's Son, etc… all positive favorable descriptions…. none of which would lead us to believe that Jesus is a false god. So Jesus is the true God, and the Trinity is what best explains the full counsel of Scripture.blessings,
Ken
Hi epistemaniacMore good points!
Blessings!
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 05 2008,01:58) Hi t8 Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2008,13:44)
Is the Father the image of the invisible God?Yes, if the Father who is invisible makes himself visible. Would the “image” you see not be God?
Again, you reduce Gods image to being less than God therefore creating a false image of God!
WJ
Let's put your words to the test.
The test is scripture.1 Timothy 6:15-16
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.So according to Paul, no one can see God and no one has seen God.
So your bit about the invisible God being visible is incorrect.
Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. If Jesus were God, then according to Paul, Jesus would be invisible and no one could see him or has seen him.
Wake up WJ, it is time for you to put away this folly.
It is silly to teach that the invisible God is visible.
I think you can see that it is a is a blatant contradiction.
At least be honest with yourself if you can't admit it publicly.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31)
So according to Paul, no one can see God and no one has seen God.John also said the same thing…
No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. John 1:18 NET
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:12
But wait….
Yahshua says…
(Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God – “he has seen the Father”.) John 6:46 NET
Question is “why would the Apostle John say “no one' has seen God at any time unless John knew that Yahshua is “the true God”, the Word that was with God and was God.
So if no one has seen God then it is imparitive that Yahshua not being a part of the “no one” is also the “True God”.
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. “This one is the true God and eternal life“. 1 John 5:20
WJ
Hi WJ,
So if Yahshua has seen God has he seen himself?
Or do you mean God is the Father which we agree with.
You should really cast aside these vain follies and worship his God.t8
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31)
Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. If Jesus were God, then according to Paul, Jesus would be invisible and no one could see him or has seen him.I am Glad that you admit the Father who is Spirit is invisible and Yahshua is the “visible image of God”.
Since you believe that Yahshua being the “visible image of God” does not mean he is God then maybe you can explain these scriptures and who it is that is sitting on the throne and how John was able to see him…
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. ….And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, **Lord God Almighty**, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks “to him that sat on the throne”, who liveth for ever and ever, “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne”, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev 4:2, 3 and 4:8-11
Compare “…for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure* they are and were created”. with…
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: “all things were created *by him, and for him*“: Col 1:16
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31)
Wake up WJ, it is time for you to put away this folly.
It is silly to teach that the invisible God is visible.
I think it is silly to teach that God has not made himself visible!Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31) I think you can see that it is a is a blatant contradiction.
At least be honest with yourself if you can't admit it publicly.
The blatant contradiction is with your theology t8, for it is you who believes that more than one divine being exist and that more than one “theos” created all things. It is you that teaches men that the “image of the invisible God” is less than God therfore causing men to create a false image of God.O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, (not gods) thou art the God, even “thou alone“, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth. Isa 37:16
Which “alone” spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea. Job 9:8
WJ
Hi WJ,
If you acknowledge the Father as God why do you teach that His Son is primarily to be worshipped?
Why not follow the Son and worship his Father and God?
You do not worship a trinity do you?Hi t8
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:43)
Some who are given his authority are called theos, but they are not the Most High Theos or true Theos. Rather they are representative of him who is the one true Theos.Can you give us one scripture where a representative of God who has divine qualities or attributes is called “theos”?
Just one scripture t8. Thats all I ask. Surely you can find one that supports your theory that “Gods representatives” who must have divine qualities or attributes are called “theos”.
Where is the scripture that says an “Angel of God” is called “theos”?
Anyone can see that your words do not match up with the reality of the application of the word 'theos' in scripture.
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2008,07:34) Hi WJ,
If you acknowledge the Father as God why do you teach that His Son is primarily to be worshipped?
Why not follow the Son and worship his Father and God?
You do not worship a trinity do you?
Hi NHIf the Father is the invisible God then who is being worshipped in Revelation chapter 4?
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2008,07:52) Hi WJ,
You do not know who God is anymore?
You should not pay attention to fools.
NHWhat do you know about my relationship with God?
You simply badger rather than addressing the points.
I think that is rather foolish.
WJ
WJ,
Why pay lipservice to the veracity of scripture and try to find confusion?
The millstone awaits those who would upset the faith of God's little ones.
You know Who God is. He is not a trinity and the rest is from carnal men.Hi WJ,
Actually the millstone would be preferable to their fate and, not surprisingly, the fate of the Whore.Matthew 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Mark 9:42
And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.Luke 17:2
It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.Revelation 18:21
And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.Hi,
So it seems the judgement on the Whore may well relate to her offending the faith of God's people.
? By false and dangerous doctrines that do not come from the mouth of God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2008,07:57) WJ,
Why pay lipservice to the veracity of scripture and try to find confusion?
The millstone awaits those who would upset the faith of God's little ones.
You know Who God is. He is not a trinity and the rest is from carnal men.
NHThe confusion is in your own theology, for your theology dictates using white out on parts of the scriptures.
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. Rev 22:19
WJ
Hi WJ,
We reveal to the best of our limited knowledge and ability what is written in scripture, the bread of life.
No trinity is found there but you still espouse it?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 07 2008,08:07) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2008,07:57) WJ,
Why pay lipservice to the veracity of scripture and try to find confusion?
The millstone awaits those who would upset the faith of God's little ones.
You know Who God is. He is not a trinity and the rest is from carnal men.
NHThe confusion is in your own theology, for your theology dictates using white out on parts of the scriptures.
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. Rev 22:19
WJ
Hi WJ,
Strong accusations.But we do not remove any teachings from the bible such as that God is a trinity or that we should worship other than the God of Jesus because these things are not found taught there.
So what do you mean?
Hi Ken
Hope you are wellQuote To see Jesus, is to see God. Therefore Paul's words in 1 Tim. must refer to God the Father, who is spirit, and the human eye cannot see “spirit”, and not to Jesus, further reinforcing the doctrine of the Trinity, as there is a distinction being made in reference to the Father, which humans are physically unable to see, and Jesus, who's role it was to make God visible to us.
To see Jesus is to see GOD. amen to that
1 Timothy 6:15-16
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.Therefore Paul's words in 1 Tim. must refer to God the Father, who is spirit, and the human eye cannot see “spirit” amen to that also.
and not to Jesus I agree with that also.
verse 16 reiterates the thought of John 1:18 which tells us no man has seen GOD at any time
yet the only begotten which is in the bosom of the Father has declared HIM.
further reinforcing the doctrine of the Trinity, as there is a distinction being made in reference to the Father, which humans are physically unable to see, and Jesus, who's role it was to make God visible to us.
How so? If they are distinct then they are not the same, if they vary in their essential and intrinsic nature, even in purpose how can they be identical in every way?
Mortal (able to taste of death) and immortal are not the same
One begotten and one eternal are not identical as to origin
If anything a distinction being made between the Father and the Son only serves to further weaken the idea of a trinity of 3 co-equal, co-eternal, co-omnipotent, co-ominscient persons.
imoHi MF
Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11) Been busy last few days…
Hi WJ
Some thoughts on some of your comments.Quote Really? Can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has of which Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have? Only one?
How about a few?
Omnipotence – Jesus does not have omnipotence of himself – he was given it by GOD
Really? And just how is it that two separate beings can be “Omnipotent”? Two separate beings cannot have all power. How can a “finite being” have infinite power? However one can. The point is the attribute that the Father has “omnipotence’, Yeshua also has. They are One!The question was…“Can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has of which Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?”. You have not answered the question for Yeshua has all authority and power.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)
–after he rose from the grave. If it was an intrinsic part of himself he could not have it then not have it then have it again…
Post incarnation. Paul in Phil 2 disagrees with you and says that Yeshua who is in the “form of God” emptied himself and did recieve it again.Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)
Also he said himself that his Father was greater than him (Mt 14:28)
This is truly a fallacious argument for it does not speak to the ontological nature of Yeshua who is the Word/God.Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)
Omniscience – Jesus did not know everything that the Father did (Mk 13:32) Now as with the previous point – he cannot have omniscience then lose it then gain it again.
Post incarnation. Phil 2 disagrees with you.My question was… “Can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has of which Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?”
The scriptures say… The Father loveth the Son, and “hath given all things into his hand”. John 3:35
For the Father loveth the Son, and “sheweth him all things that himself doeth”: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Jesus knowing that “the Father had given all things into his hands”, and that he was come from God, and went to God; John 13:3
In whom (Yahshua) “are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge“. Col 2:3
Again the question was…“Can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has of which Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?”
Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)
Jesus could die – GOD is eternal – therefore cannot die.
Another fallacious argument. What died? The Word or eternal Spirit of Yeshua? Or his flesh, the body that is dead without the Spirit? James 2:26 Yeshua said he was the resurrection and the life, John 11:25. John says he is the “Eternal life” that was with the Father. 1 John 1:1, 2. Yeshua says…And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:26
If our spirits never die, do you think the “Eternal Spirit” of Yahshua who was the resurrection and the life died? Yahshua was in hell or Hades for 3 days and 3 nights.
Again the question was…“Can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has of which Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?”
Yeshua is eternal without a beginning as the Word/God.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11) Jesus could be a man – GOD is not a man.
Again the question was…“Can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has of which Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?”The question was not what attributes Yeshua has that the Father doesn’t.
But, the Word/God came in the flesh therefore becoming God in the flesh, the “image of the invisible God”.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11) There is no such thing as an eternal son, and the son of God is not a second GOD.
I agree he is not a second god.Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11) If Jesus ever was eternal then he could not die.
The fact that he was GOD’s son meant he could not stay dead, GOD raised him up again.
The Word/God the eternal Spirit did not die. The definition of death is the separation of the soul/spirit from the body. Yahshua said…And fear not them which kill the body, “but are not able to kill the soul”: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28
Do you think the Father killed Jesus soul/spirit?
Jesus also said…
Jesus answered and said unto them, “Destroy this temple” (his body), and in three days “I will raise it up”. John 2:19
If the Spirit of Yahshua was dead then how could he raise his body?
Quote There is no unambiguous scripture that says Yeshua had a beginning and especially that he was born or created from an asexual God. Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)
There is nothing ambiguous about the title son – it clearly denotes the following
Offspring – and therefore the fact that Jesus (as all offspring of a
parent do) had a beginning.
Jesus was not declared a son until he came in the flesh. Where is the scripture that the pre-incarnate Jesus had a beginning?Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11) Add to this the fact that he has a father. Everyone I know of that has a father had a beginning in that father.
No, the beginning is in the mother. You use the term son as if it means he is not by nature God. If you have a son he is ontologically identical in nature as a human.Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)
“you are MY Son today I have begotten you” – nothing ambiguous about that.
What does the word beget mean? Especially when used in context to HIS Son.
Post incarnation.Again the question was…“Can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has of which Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?”
Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11) Asexual GOD? Sex and GOD are not relative at all – He can make children of the rocks – He can speak children even as He spoke the entire creation into existence.
I agree, but Yahshua is not of the created order, for…All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created John 1:3
And we know that Yahshua didn’t create himself.
Quote YHWH did not bring birth to a lesser god by whom he created all things and then ask us to bow down and worship him calling him our Great God and Savior. Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)
A lesser GOD – there is but one GOD – one Source and creator of all.
How HE chooses to do the creating is HIS sovereign prerogative.
Agreed, there is only “one True God”, but I was addressing statements made by t8 that says there is more than one “theos” with divine qualities, and LU who says Yahshua was born from the Father before the creation of all things.Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)
As T8 says Jesus being the image of the invisible GOD does not make him identical
I don’t think those were his exact words. Yahshua disagrees with you when he says if you see and hear him you see and hear God.Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)
The meaning of the word image denotes this fact, an image is not the original it is an image.
Blessings
Just how do you have a true image of an original if it is not identical?So you are of the impression that the Father does not have an image and that if you see that image you are not seeing God. If you are invisible and make yourself visible would not the image I see be you?
So can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has that Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?”
Yahshua is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient!
Yahshua is God, One with the Father and the Spirit.
WJ
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