JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[Lightenup]

Hi Malcolm,
Great, I am glad that you agree that the Son of God was born before all creation. I have trouble keeping everyone's beliefs straight, sorry.

I am still curious why you think that the Son of God is called God by the Most High God Himself and by others?

LU

[malcolm ferris]

UR referring to Hebrews? Jehovah said to Adonai? that sort of thing?
The story of Joseph sheds a little light on that as mentioned somewhere else on this site.

[Lightenup]

Hi Malcolm,
These are some scriptures that you can begin with to explain why the Son of God is called God:

Titus 2:13-14
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
NASU

John 20:28-29
28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
NASU

2 Peter 1:1
1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
NASU

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NASU

John 1:17-18
18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
NASU

Heb 1:8-9

8 But of the Son He says,

“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”
NASU

It seems like we both believe that the Son of God was born before the foundation of the world and hence, had a beginning. I have my explanation of why He is called God eventhough He had a beginning. I am wondering what your explanation is.

Thanks,
LU

[malcolm ferris]

Don't know that I can explain it LU, can try to set forth my understanding as it stands.
But I expect that it takes a revelation to get this (aka GOD has to quicken scriptures by HIS SPIRIT)
Guess that's why its termed the mystery of godliness…

OK here goes my first attempt.

Hebrews 1 sets forth the principle of GOD using an anointed vessel to declare HIMSELF
Firstly in prophets then in HIS Son.
In both cases it was not a man that was being declared but GOD.
As Jesus said those who the WORD of GOD came to were called gods.
Moses was GOD to the people in his time, when they refused his message they refused GOD.
Now what the prophets were in a part, in a shadow and a type,
Jesus was sent into flesh to express in its fulness.

Hebrews 1 sheds a futher clue in the mention that Jesus was the outraying of the glory of GOD,
he is the image of the invisible GOD.
In Heaven he was the agent GOD used : the arm of GOD for creation.
On earth he was the arm of GOD for propitiation
as well as the means by which GOD could fully declare HIMSELF in flesh.
Having returned to Heaven he became the arm of GOD for intercession.
In the future he will be the arm of GOD for recognition by all in Kingship.

Thats enough for starters..

[Lightenup]

Malcolm,
Thank you so much for your input so far. I'm following your reasoning and agree,yeah! What is your response to the fact that the LORD claims that He alone stretched out the heavens and spread out the earth by Himself?

Isa 44:24

24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb,

“I, the LORD, am the maker of all things,
Stretching out the heavens by Myself
And spreading out the earth all alone,
NASU

Thanks for your time Malcolm,
LU

[malcolm ferris]

That is a good question
As I understand it the scriptures say that GOD created BY Jesus Christ (Col 1:16, Eph3:9)
Now you will find places where it states that GOD is our savior
and others that state that Jesus is our savior.
One does not contradict the other for GOD is our savior and how is this expressed to us?
BY (in and through) Jesus Christ.
When Jesus declared His Father’s name it was not his (Jesus) words or works that were
Expressed but GOD’s. GOD alone was speaking through HIS Son.
IMO

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 03 2008,11:27)

That is a good question As I understand it the scriptures say that GOD created BY Jesus Christ (Col 1:16, Eph3:9) Now you will find places where it states that GOD is our savior and others that state that Jesus is our savior. One does not contradict the other for GOD is our savior and how is this expressed to us? BY (in and through) Jesus Christ. When Jesus declared His Father’s name it was not his (Jesus) words or works that were Expressed but GOD’s. GOD alone was speaking through HIS Son. IMO

Hi MC

Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 03 2008,11:27)

Expressed but GOD’s. GOD alone was speaking through HIS Son.

Just how was God “Alone” speaking through the Son?

Do you mean that Yeshua didnt speak but was jus an empty shell?

WJ

[malcolm ferris]

No – simply that as any prophet when He speaks in the name of the LORD is not speaking but it is GOD
speaking through him.

[Lightenup]

Thanks again Malcolm for you response. I tend to agree with you. Another question I would like to ask you if you don't mind. Can you call Jesus your great God and Savior and trust Him to be your God and if so, why, since you believe that He has a beginning?
LU

[Tiffany]

Kathi and Malcom! First welcome Malcom, I have not introduced myself. My name is Irene

If I am not mistaken, that the translators where afraid to write out Jehovah, or Yeshua that they used God. Another Idea that I think is more likely to be the truth, is that God is a Family name. Since in Corinth. 15:28……… that God will be all in all. So we are also being called God. We are the Family of God. IMO
Irene

[malcolm ferris]

Hi Irene

I can't vouch for what happened historically in the translation of the WORD,
or the politics or whatever that might have been involved.

I am not too concerned with all that,
personally I like the KJV translation, but whatever translation one prefers
I believe it is more important that the SPIRIT guide us in those scriptures
so that we may have the right understanding.

We can and should diligently study the scriptures,
however with a view to recieving greater understanding
not by the ability of our minds to figure it out
but by the instruction of GOD through the Spirit.

re – GOD as a family name – interesting
Here are 3 ways one can be called by a family name.
1 – be born into it.
2 – be married into it – if you are a woman.
3 – be adopted into it.
Certainly I can see where 1 & 2 fit into this very well.

[malcolm ferris]

Hi LU
You mentioned that you have your explanation of how Jesus can be called GOD though he has a beginning, I would be very keen to hear it.

OK can I call Jesus my great GOD and Savior and trust Him to be my God and if so, why, since I believe that He has a beginning?

I believe I can directly call Jesus Adonai.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 03 2008,02:44)

Malcolm, Thank you so much for your input so far.  I'm following your reasoning and agree,yeah!  What is your response to the fact that the LORD claims that He alone stretched out the heavens and spread out the earth by Himself? Isa 44:24 24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone, NASU Thanks for your time Malcolm, LU

Were you happy with Malcom's response to your question, Kathi?

I wasn't…….

I think it's a pretty hard passage of scripture to explain away, imo (which isn't worth much these days, I admit).

Thanks,
Mandy

[malcolm ferris]

LU
Further to your last question
The LORD said to my Lord sit here till I make your enemies your footstool (till I put all enemies under your feet)
Jehovah said to Adonai is how I understand that verse.
I can call Jesus Adonai – my Lord
I can say like Thomas my Lord and my GOD in the understanding that Jesus is the tabernacle of GOD.
When I see him I see the Father.
At the time when every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord –
it will be to the glory of GOD the Father.
There is always a recognition there of the two-fold revelation of the Son of Man:
the Father and the Son, the CHRIST the Son of the Living GOD.
imo

btw Mandy – sorry to disappoint but I did start by saying a few posts back:

Quote

Don't know that I can explain it LU, can try to set forth my understanding as it stands. But I expect that it takes a revelation to get this (aka GOD has to quicken scriptures by HIS SPIRIT) Guess that's why its termed the mystery of godliness…

I stand by that – noone can explain to satisfaction this mystery so that all will see it,
if they could then Paul or one of the writers of the gospels or Jesus himself would have done so.
It takes a revelation from GOD, HE is sovereign in this I believe.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 03 2008,14:33)

No – simply that as any prophet when He speaks in the name of the LORD is not speaking but it is GOD speaking through him.

Hi Malcolm. It's been a long time, how've you been? In response to your comment – to me that begs the question: why is the same kind of language not used of other prophets of YHWH? Yeshua seems to be the exception here, He is unique among the prophets in that He is explicitly called God and is assigned prerogatives of God (e.g. the creation). I don't think it's good theology to build doctrine on exceptions.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 03 2008,02:44)

Malcolm, Thank you so much for your input so far.  I'm following your reasoning and agree,yeah!  What is your response to the fact that the LORD claims that He alone stretched out the heavens and spread out the earth by Himself? Isa 44:24 24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone, NASU Thanks for your time Malcolm, LU

It's difficult to reconcile this verse with others like John 1:3, Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:3 and Heb 1:10 while still holding that Yeshua….

1. Didn't pre-exist His incarnation
2. Isn't the Lord God Almighty

These verses are most assuredly not compatible with unitarianism, or henotheism. On the face of it theyare actually quite supportive of sabellianism, and I can easily see how they reached their conclusion on the basis of these kinds of affirmations. Is 44:24 is also not incompatable with trinitarianism. Yeshua said if you've seen Him you've seen the Father, and that He and the Father are “One”. The writer of Hebrews testified that Yeshua is an exact representation of His Father’s substance/essence, Colossian 2:9 records“ For in Him all the fullness of Deity (Gr. Theotes – divine essence, the state of being God) dwells in bodily form.”

[malcolm ferris]

Quote

Hi Malcolm. It's been a long time, how've you been? In response to your comment – to me that begs the question: why is the same kind of language not used of other prophets of YHWH? Yeshua seems to be the exception here, He is unique among the prophets in that He is explicitly called God and is assigned prerogatives of God (e.g. the creation). I don't think it's good theology to build doctrine on exceptions.

Hi Is 1:18
Good to hear from you
I agree that Jesus is exceptional in this regards –
this exception being noted in Hebrews 1 which to me is saying GOD in the past used prophets to speak to man –
now its by Jesus Christ.
Jesus was also a prophet, but more than any prophet before him (imo)
They showed forth GOD in part, in him the fullness of GOD both dwelt and was manifest

[malcolm ferris]

Quote

It's difficult to reconcile this verse with others like John 1:3, Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:3 and Heb 1:10 while still holding that Yeshua…. 1. Didn't pre-exist His incarnation 2. Isn't the Lord God Almighty These verses are most assuredly not compatible with unitarianism, or henotheism. On the face of it theyare actually quite supportive of sabellianism, and I can easily see how they reached their conclusion on the basis of these kinds of affirmations. Is 44:24 is also not incompatable with trinitarianism. Yeshua said if you've seen Him you've seen the Father, and that He and the Father are “One”. The writer of Hebrews testified that Yeshua is an exact representation of His Father’s substance/essence, Colossian 2:9 records“ For in Him all the fullness of Deity (Gr. Theotes – divine essence, the state of being God) dwells in bodily form.”

I fail to see the difficulty.
Jesus in his fleshly incarnation said that to see him was to see his Father.
As I understanding GOD the Father is the invisible, eternal GOD.
Jesus is the visible image.
An exact replica is still just that – a replica.
An image is an image and not the original from which the image was formed.
IMO

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 04 2008,13:20)

Quote It's difficult to reconcile this verse with others like John 1:3, Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:3 and Heb 1:10 while still holding that Yeshua…. 1. Didn't pre-exist His incarnation 2. Isn't the Lord God Almighty These verses are most assuredly not compatible with unitarianism, or henotheism. On the face of it theyare actually quite supportive of sabellianism, and I can easily see how they reached their conclusion on the basis of these kinds of affirmations. Is 44:24 is also not incompatable with trinitarianism. Yeshua said if you've seen Him you've seen the Father, and that He and the Father are “One”. The writer of Hebrews testified that Yeshua is an exact representation of His Father’s substance/essence, Colossian 2:9 records“ For in Him all the fullness of Deity (Gr. Theotes – divine essence, the state of being God) dwells in bodily form.” I fail to see the difficulty. Jesus in his fleshly incarnation said that to see him was to see his Father. As I understanding GOD the Father is the invisible, eternal GOD. Jesus is the visible image. An exact replica is still just that – a replica. An image is an image and not the original from which the image was formed. IMO

Hi MF

Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 04 2008,13:20)

An image is an image and not the original from which the image was formed.

This would be true if the scriptures say Yahshua is “an” image of the invisible God.

However the scriptures say he is “the Image” of the invisible God, which begs the question…

“if the invisible God makes himself visible is the image that you see not God?”

To have an “image” of the invisible God as less than God means you have a false image of God, thefore IMO means that you would have a “false god”.

If you were invisible and made yourself visible would not what one would see is you?

The Father and the Son ontologically are the same, there is no difference in their nature, and I challenge anyone to name one attribute of God that the Father and the Son or the Holy Spirit do not share.

WJ

[Proclaimer]

Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 02 2008,08:40)

Quote Do you think he was the first work of the Father? as Tiffany said Col 1:15-17 is a good place to start. one thing I don't believe that there are 2 Gods or that a son can be eternal (i.e. in the sense that he has no beginning or end – he can have eternal life in him)

I agree.

[Author]

Posts