JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
What I was referring to was the thought that he walked among men giving him a headstart.

[Lightenup]

Hi Nick,
So you do see that He laid the foundation of the earth with His hand, right? That tells us that He was much different than man before He became one, right?

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
A heart that is already surrendered to scriptural truth should not surrender also to speculation.
Let scripture reveal scripture.

We are not free to do otherwise.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 17 2008,06:54)

Hi WJ, Thanks!  The Son was given the name of His Father, that does not make them equal or co-eternal.  The Son has a mighty role indeed in the OT I think. LU

Hi LU

Can you give me a scripture that says the Father gave Yeshua his name “YHWH”?

Yeshua is spoken of as YHWH which is a name reserved for God alone!

Here is an excellent debate on Zech 14 concerning Yeshua being YHWH.

Click here!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Is SON OF GOD just an meaningless appellation?
Is the SON really the God of who he is said to be a son?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 17 2008,09:57)

Hi Nick, So you do see that He laid the foundation of the earth with His hand, right?  That tells us that He was much different than man before He became one, right? LU

Now we have conflicting scriptures.

One says that God (the Father) was alone and used his hand to measure out the heavens and earth. And then we have this scripture that refers to the son playing a part in doing the same thing.

Which is it?

[david]

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To me, this passage has never meant that Jesus lived prior to his birth. It could simply mean that he emptied himself of his pride (as Paul is admonishing everyone to do in context), that he took a low position among us, and that even though he is the Son of God (who is Spirit) – he was made like us.

–mandy

And for him to empty himself of pride, he would have had to exist. If he didn't exist, how could he empty himself of pride? Does a thought have pride? Does a plan have pride? No, but a person can be humble and that was the thought of the verse, following his example of humility.

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and that even though he is the Son of God (who is Spirit) – he was made like us.

How would it have been an act of humility if he didn't exist until he was born of Mary? What humility was there on his part if he didn't even exist until that moment then?
If he didn't exist until then, then he could not have shown humility in doing so.

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He emptied himself. *It's still questioned just what he emptied*

Well what does the rest of the verse say? Doesn't it say 'although existing in God's form he emptied himself and came to be in the likeness of man'?
Both the words before and after explain what it mean. It is speaking of him being born as a man, although he had existed in God's form. Again, this fits in perfectly with the idea of being humble, which is what these verses are about.

[Not3in1]

David, it is my opinion that Jesus found himself in the form of a man – knowing at this point that he was God's Son. Upon realizing that he was royalty (indeed, a Prince), he did not act on this but humbled himself and became a servant.

Certainly a Prince who willingly steps down from his priviledged place to walk with common man knows quite a lot about humility.

On the other hand, a person who had existed as God prior to being born a puny man (and then also having the knowledge that he would return to God) could humble himself for a time but would it really be humbling himself? Or just a temporary inconvenience?

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 16 2008,18:25)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 17 2008,06:54) Hi WJ, Thanks!  The Son was given the name of His Father, that does not make them equal or co-eternal.  The Son has a mighty role indeed in the OT I think. LU Hi LU Can you give me a scripture that says the Father gave Yeshua his name “YHWH”? Yeshua is spoken of as YHWH which is a name reserved for God alone! Here is an excellent debate on Zech 14 concerning Yeshua being YHWH. Click here! WJ

Hi WJ,
This is something for you to consider in response to your question to me.

This tells us that Jesus has come in His Father's name:
John 5:43-45
43 “I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?

This tells us that Jesus's Father's name was given to Him (Jesus).
John 17:12
12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me;
NASU

LU

[Lightenup]

Hi again WJ,

I know that you realize that Jesus was called Yahweh in the OT but I believe His is not the only one.

I believe that I can show that two are called Yahweh.

Here we have Yahweh (LORD) having a chat with Moses and telling him that He did not make His name “Yahweh” (LORD) known to Abe, Is, or Jac:
Ex 6:2-3
2 God also said to Moses, “I am the LORD (Yahweh). 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD (Yahweh) I did not make myself known to them.
NIV

Here we have the LORD (Yahweh) speaking to Isaac and Isaac called upon the name of the “LORD” (Yahweh) so obviously this particular LORD did make that name known to Isaac:
Gen 26:23-25
24 The LORD (Yahweh) appeared to him the same night and said,

” I am the God of your father Abraham;
Do not fear, for I am with you.
I will bless you, and multiply your descendants,
For the sake of My servant Abraham.”

25 So he built an altar there and called upon the name of the LORD (Yahweh), and pitched his tent there; and there Isaac's servants dug a well.
NASU

In this passage, the LORD is speaking to Jacob in a dream as “LORD” (Yahweh):
Gen 28:12-17
13 And behold, the LORD (Yahweh) stood above it and said, “I am the LORD (Yahweh), the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie, I will give it to you and to your descendants. 14 “Your descendants will also be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15 “Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.” 16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, ” Surely the LORD is in this place, and I did not know it.” 17 He was afraid and said, ” How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.”
NASU

Yahweh does not lie. I figure there are two that are called that name. One, the Most High God and the other, His Son that represents Him on earth who was given the name of His Father.

I believe that the “name” that was the Father's and that was “given” Him (Jesus) was the name “Yahweh” (LORD).

Remember, the three “men” who came to Abraham? One was referred to as LORD (Yahweh). Since Jesus states that no man has seen the Father except the Son, the one referred to as “LORD” (Yahweh) in the Abraham story could not have been the Father Yahweh:

John 6:46
46 “Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
NAS

Gen 18:1-2
Gen 18:1 Now the LORD (Yahweh) appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 And when he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the earth
NAS

In the Genesis passage, two of the “men” were made known to be angels if you keep reading the chapter and the other was Yahweh who Abraham was standing before.

Gen 18:22
22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD (Yahweh).
NAS

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
So when God's servants speak as God
they become that God??

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 17 2008,17:44)

Hi LU, So when God's servants speak as God they become that God??

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Posted: Sep. 17 2008,15:54 Hi again WJ, I know that you realize that Jesus was called Yahweh in the OT but I believe His is not the only one. I believe that I can show that two are called Yahweh. Here we have Yahweh (LORD) having a chat with Moses and telling him that He did not make His name “Yahweh” (LORD) known to Abe, Is, or Jac: Ex 6:2-3 2 God also said to Moses, “I am the LORD (Yahweh). 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD (Yahweh) I did not make myself known to them. NIV Here we have the LORD (Yahweh) speaking to Isaac and Isaac called upon the name of the “LORD” (Yahweh) so obviously this particular LORD did make that name known to Isaac: Gen 26:23-25 24 The LORD (Yahweh) appeared to him the same night and said, ” I am the God of your father Abraham; Do not fear, for I am with you. I will bless you, and multiply your descendants, For the sake of My servant Abraham.” 25 So he built an altar there and called upon the name of the LORD (Yahweh), and pitched his tent there; and there Isaac's servants dug a well. NASU In this passage, the LORD is speaking to Jacob in a dream as “LORD” (Yahweh): Gen 28:12-17 13 And behold, the LORD (Yahweh) stood above it and said, “I am the LORD (Yahweh), the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie, I will give it to you and to your descendants. 14 “Your descendants will also be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15 “Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.” 16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, ” Surely the LORD is in this place, and I did not know it.” 17 He was afraid and said, ” How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.” NASU Yahweh does not lie. I figure there are two that are called that name. One, the Most High God and the other, His Son that represents Him on earth who was given the name of His Father. I believe that the “name” that was the Father's and that was “given” Him (Jesus) was the name “Yahweh” (LORD). Remember, the three “men” who came to Abraham? One was referred to as LORD (Yahweh). Since Jesus states that no man has seen the Father except the Son, the one referred to as “LORD” (Yahweh) in the Abraham story could not have been the Father Yahweh: John 6:46 46 “Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. NAS Gen 18:1-2 Gen 18:1 Now the LORD (Yahweh) appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 And when he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the earth NAS In the Genesis passage, two of the “men” were made known to be angels if you keep reading the chapter and the other was Yahweh who Abraham was standing before. Gen 18:22 22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD (Yahweh). NAS LU

Hi Nick,
Try reading this again more carefully and you will find that this post states two “different” Yahweh's.

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Yahweh does not lie. I figure there are two that are called that name. One, the Most High God and the other, His Son that represents Him on earth who was given the name of His Father.

Don't worry so, the Son never becomes His Father and the Father never becomes the Son. They can both be “theos” and both be called “Yahweh” and one can still be the Most High God and the other His Son, the begotten God. Not equal, not co-eternal.

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
To your eye?

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 17 2008,18:59)

Hi LU, To your eye?

Hi Nick,
Is this your way of saying that you have no insightful, scriptural explanation to the subject?

I welcome any scripturally based insight anyone might have.

LU

[david]

Quote

David, it is my opinion that Jesus found himself in the form of a man – knowing at this point that he was God's Son.  Upon realizing that he was royalty (indeed, a Prince), he did not act on this but humbled himself and became a servant.

But Mandy, i do not believe this is what it says.  Take whatever Bible you like.

It says this:

Our attitude should be the same as Christs

who

although being the very nature of God or existing in God's form

made himself nothing, emptied himself,

and

took on a slaves form, being made a human

and humbled himself as far as death.

Yes, he found himself in the form of man, as you say, AFTER being the very nature of God or existing in God's form.
We understand what the “form of man” is, what a slaves form is–humans, flesh, physical beings.
And we could contrast that with God's heavenly spirit body form or nature.

He gave all that up!  The best comparison I could think of is if one of us willingly decided to be a fly for a few years.

I think you're missing parts of this scripture.  The 'made himself nothing' or 'emptied himself' part.  We are to keep the mental attitude that Christ had, humility.  

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
who, although He (A)existed in the (B)form of God, ©did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped

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Certainly a Prince who willingly steps down from his priviledged place to walk with common man knows quite a lot about humility.

Definitely true.  

But it's only humility if the prince existed before and willingly chose that course.  IS IT NOT?  

Quote

On the other hand, a person who had existed as God prior to being born a puny man (and then also having the knowledge that he would return to God) could humble himself for a time but would it really be humbling himself?  Or just a temporary inconvenience?

If your the second in the whole universe, and you take on a slaves form, yes, it is by every definition, humility.  A proud one would have said: “Don't you know who I am?  Can't someone less important do this?”
If I asked the Queen of England to take the lowest position for a few years, it would certainly take humility to do this.  Most likely she would have too much pride.

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Thank you for your opinion.
Opinions are sometimes incorrect no matter how firmly clung to.

The angel of God often spoke for God.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 17 2008,21:32)

Hi LU, Thank you for your opinion. Opinions are sometimes incorrect no matter how firmly clung to. The angel of God often spoke for God.

Hi Nick,
Surely you have something more than that to offer. Are angels referred to AS Yahweh ever? Can you offer any unambiguous scripture to support your opinion that an angel is referred to as Yahweh? A being referred to as Yahweh is not the same as a being merely representing Yahweh.
LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
God is God.
Many have thought they have seen or heard God when they saw angels working and speaking in His name.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 17 2008,23:19)

Hi LU, God is God. Many have thought they have seen or heard God when they saw angels working and speaking in His name.

Nick,
Jesus is called theos, the monogenes theos and His right hand laid the foundation of the earth. His Father is the Most High Theos and His Son is the monogenes Theos.
LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Jn1.18
18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
John 1:18 Or the Only Begotten
John 1:18 Some manuscripts but the only (or only begotten) Son

Quite a lot of manuscript variation here.

[Author]

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