- This topic has 25,959 replies, 116 voices, and was last updated 17 hours, 15 minutes ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (jammin @ April 13 2012,15:22) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,10:24) Quote (jammin @ April 12 2012,14:27) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 12 2012,12:08) Quote (jammin @ April 12 2012,11:11) frank, where is your version that says that the word in john 1.1 is the father? lOL
nick,
where can i read in john 1.1 that the word is the HS? LOL
jammin,I am never proclaimed that Scripture says that the word in Yahchanan [John] 1:1 is the Father. What I have simply proclaimed is what Father Yahweh's prophetic inspired word teaches, and that is that His word is simply that, His word. Nowhere in Scripture does it ever teach or say that Father Yahweh's word was a separate being that existed apart from Him in the beginning that was a creator or a co-creator with Him. Scripture clearly teaches that Father Yahweh “ALONE”, “BY HIMSELF” with “NO ONE BESIDE HIM” created the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. His son Yahshua is never once recorded in the so-called “New Testament” as proclaiming that he had created ANYTHING. In fact, in this same section of Scripture Yahshua credited his and our Father Yahweh for the creation of the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM.
thanks for admitting that the word is not the father.john says the Word was GOD.
in verse 14 the word is the son of GOD.he was with in the beginning.
sorry boy.. you must study hard first.
Jammin,I never admitted that the word was not the Father.
Maybe you should make up you mind whether you believe the word is YOUR “God” or it is the son of YOUR “God”.
you said:I am never proclaimed that Scripture says that the word in Yahchanan [John] 1:1 is the Fathernow you said:I never admitted that the word was not the Father.
——-
you should take some vitamins LOL
you are confusedthe bible says that the father and the son have the same nature, GOD.that is what the bible says.
the father is GOD by nature.
the son is also GOD by nature.phil 2.5-6 Let Christ himself be your example as to what your attitude should be. For he, who had always been God by nature,
sorry boy but you need to study hard LOL
jammin,Nowhere in Scripture does it ACTUALLY SAY (and I QUOTE, which is indicated by QUOTATION MARKS [“…”]) “the word in Yahchanan [John] 1:1 is the Father”, nor does Scripture ACTUALLY SAY (and I QUOTE, which is indicated by QUOTATION MARKS [“…”]) “The word is the son”. What many erroneously attempt to indicate to me here in this forum is that Father Yahweh's word is in actuality a separate being that existed apart from Him in the beginning that was a creator or a co-creator with Him. This is nothing but pure foolishness! As I have said many times before here in this forum, is that Father Yahweh's word is just that, His word. Just as my word is not a separate being apart from me, Father Yahweh's word is also not a separate being apart from Him. My word is just that, my word and Father Yahweh's word is just that, His word. Words have power, strength, and might and especially Father Yahweh's word. This is what is truly indicated in Yahchanan [John] 1:1.
In the beginning was the word [Father Yahweh's word], and the word [Father Yahweh's word] was with Yahweh, and the word was mighty [authoritative, powerful, had strength, which has been translated as “God” in most translations]. The word “God” comes from the Hebrew root word 'yl' or 'wl' and means power, authority, might, or strength.
The word “God” is clearly in reference to Father Yahweh, since he is the sources of all power and not in reference to His son, Yahshua, since His son was not with Him in the beginning as a creator or a co-creator. If His son would have been with Him in the beginning (genesis) then somewhere in the so-called “Old Testament” there would have been some mention of him being there with Him in the beginning, but there is absolutely no mention of him being there whatsoever. Scripture (the so-called “Old Testament”) clearly teaches that it was Yahweh “ALONE”, “BY HIMSELF” with “NO ONE BESIDE HIM” Who created the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. This truth as revealed in Scripture is quite clear that there was “NO ONE BESIDE HIM” in His creating the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. It is also quite clear in the so-called “New Testament” that Father Yahweh's son, Yahshua is never recorded there as proclaiming that he had created ANYTHING. In fact, Yahshua makes it quite clear in this section of Scripture that his and our Father Yahweh is Creator of the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM.
If you can find one occurrence in any translation of the so-called “New Testament” where Yahshua ever proclaimed that he had created ANYTHING, could you please show me where it is that he has ever been recorded as proclaiming this, and from which translation you found him proclaiming this? I already know full well that you will never find such an entry as this in any translation of the so-called “New Testament” where he is ever recorded as proclaiming that he had created ANYTHING.
As far as my saying “I never admitted that the word was not the Father.”, I have not. FIGURATIVELY though, I do believe that Father Yahweh [“God”] is His word. This is made quite clear in the translation that follows:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD [or “God was the word” as more accurately translated from the Greek].
Following is also a link to a number of translations that say “… and the Word was God.” Note that there is not one translation that says '… and the word was Jesus.'
No, this translation most certainly does not say “… and THE WORD WAS JESUS.” Again, the word translated as “God” is clearly in reference to Father Yahweh and not in reference to His son, Yahshua. In translation it is Father Yahweh that is given reference to as “God”. Father Yahweh's son is never given reference to as “God” in translation. In Scripture translation it is clearly made known that there is only but ONE “God”, not two or three.
Just as my word is me in this forum, Father Yahweh's word was Him as is made known FIGURATIVELY in Scripture. Following is another translation that makes known that Father Yahweh is in fact His word:
“In the beginning was the word, and the word was with Yahweh, and Yahweh was the wo
rd. This was in the beginning with Yahweh. All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being. In it was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light is appearing in the darkness, and the darkness grasped it not. And the word became flesh and tabernacles among us, and we gaze at his esteem, an esteem as of an only-begotten from the Father, full of favor and truth” (Yahchanan [John] 1:1-5,14).
SOURCEDid Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
……
Quote (Ed J @ April 14 2012,05:42) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 14 2012,05:06) Quote (Ed J @ April 13 2012,14:05) Quote (Ed J @ April 13 2012,14:02)
Rudimentary logic vs Rudimentary logic
Ding, let the match begin.
Ed J,You have the right idea about this forum! Nothing but short bouts of fighting going on here in foolish words.
The only difference between an actual boxing match and what goes on here is that here the fight never ends.
Hi Frank,All rudimentary logic needs is a better to understanding of “the big picture”.
Arguing over segmented understanding is irrelevant .God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J,This is why I am growing tired of arguing over the irrelevant segmented understanding and the backbiting that goes on in this forum. I myself would rather present “the big picture” as you have put it all in one post.
Did Jesus Preexist in Heaven?
By Servetus the EvangelicalThe institutional church has always proclaimed that Jesus preexisted in heaven. And
it has concluded that Jesus’ preexistence indicates that he was and is God.
But in modern times, the idea that Jesus preexisted has been seriously challenged.
One argument is that if Jesus preexisted as a fully developed personality, that does not
allow for human development and therefore compromises his being human.
Luke claims Jesus had a normal human development. He says of Jesus’ childhood,
“The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of
God was upon Him” (Luke 2.40). Notice that Luke also distinguishes the Child Jesus
from God, which always indicates that Jesus was not God. Then Luke adds, “And Jesus
kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man” (v. 52). How
could Jesus have increased in favor with God if he was God? William Barclay therefore
states, “one of the most difficult of all ideas [is] the idea of the preexistence of Jesus.”
Christians claim that they base their beliefs on the Bible. While the first three gospels
of the New Testament (NT) contain nothing about Jesus having preexisted, the Gospel of
John seems to have several important passages that do so. And there are notable texts in
the Apostle Paul’s letters and the book of Hebrews that do, which we will now consider.
Paul does not state explicitly anywhere in his NT letters that Jesus preexisted. Thus,
Karl-Josef Kuschel asserts, “there is no sign of any unambiguous and explicit statement
about pre-existence in the Christology outlined by Paul.” But most scholars have thought
that Paul states it implicitly. And Gerhard Kittel observes, “Christological pre-existence
sayings are a constituent part of the whole of Paulinism.”
But how did Paul conceive of Jesus having preexisted? Did he think it was a personal
subsistence or merely a personfication? There is quite a difference.
James Dunn contends, “There is no good evidence that Jesus thought of himself as a
pre-existent being” or that Paul thought Jesus either preexisted or possessed deity. Dunn
claims that much of Paul’s language of preexistence is personified Wisdom language, as
in “Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God” (1 Corinthians 1.24), and that Paul
never intended for it to be understood as literal preexistence. Dunn maintains that by the
time Paul wrote Romans, in the mid-50s, “there is no evidence that Christian thought had
so far evolved the idea of incarnation, or that the language of preexistence when referred
to Christ (1 Cor 8:6) would as yet be taken to imply his personal preexistence, or that talk
of his being ‘sent’ (Rom 8:3) was as yet understood to imply a descent from heaven.”
Dunn concludes, “Paul was not seeking to win men to belief in a pre-existent being.”
Regardless of whether or not Jesus preexisted, D.A. Carson logically states, “preexistence
does not entail deity.” Indeed, Second Temple Judaism regarded certain pious
men as having preexisted, yet Jews did not think this compromised their monotheism.
John Knox warns, “the more fully the logic of pre-existence is allowed to work itself
out in the story [of Jesus], the less important the [his] resurrection is bound to become.”
Most Christians have thought that Paul implicitly affirms Jesus’ preexistence in 1
Corinthians 8.9. Therein, he states, “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that though He was rich, yet for our sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty
might become rich.” The common view of this passage has been that the word “rich”
indicates Jesus’ personal preexistence, and the words “poor” and “poverty” signify him
abandoning this lofty status at his incarnation. Karl-Josef Kuschel observes, “Traditional
exegesis has always interpreted this passage in terms of pre-existence Christology and
incarnation, as have present-day exegetes right across all confessional camps.”
But Dunn says concerning this passage, “Though he could have enjoyed the riches of
an uninterrupted communion with God, Jesus freely chose to embrace the poverty of
Adam’s distance from God, in his ministry as a whole, but particularly in his death” for
our salvation. Dunn adds, “2 Cor 8.9 is as a vivid allusion to the tremendous personal cost
of Jesus’ ministry … this self-impoverishment … That Paul intended an allusion to the
preexistent Christ’s self-abasement in incarnation must be judged unlikely.”
Until Jesus was thirty years old, he probably had an emotionally rich and fulfilling
life as the eldest of four brothers and several sisters (Mark 6.3). And he must have had a
good reputation as the carpenter of Nazareth and its vicinity. But in a most profound and
untold single act of self-denial, he laid aside this comfortable lifestyle, left home, and
undertook an itinerant, public ministry of financial poverty and even forfeiture of his life.
He once told his disciples about himself, “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air
have nests; but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head” (Matthew 8.20/Luke 9.58).
Many Christians have thought that the author of the NT letter of Hebrews presents
Jesus as having preexisted. For example, he says God “through” Jesus “made the world”
(Hebrews 1.2). And he further explains of Jesus, “He comes into the world” by God
giving him “a body” (10.5). Yet this author also relates that at Jesus’ heavenly ascension,
“He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty [God] on high; having become as much
better than the angels” (1.3-4). But if Jesus preexisted as God, he always was better than
the angels and therefore could not later have become so. Dunn concludes that “the author
of Hebrews has no place in hi
s thinking for pre-existence as an ontological concept.”
One thing seems to rule out the actual preexistence of Jesus in this letter of Hebrews.
For him to be Savior and High Priest, he had to be like us in every way except sin. The
author of Hebrews explains concerning Jesus, “He had to be made like His brethren in all
things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest” (Hebrews 2.17). Again,
this requires that Jesus did not literally preexist, since the rest of us humans did not. It
thus seems that God created the world “through” Jesus simply by having him in mind
SOURCEQuote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,23:54) Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,13:02) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,07:20) Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,12:16) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,06:16) Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,10:32) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,05:20) Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2012,15:07) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 12 2012,05:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2012,10:12) Hi FRank,
The Word was of the Spirit and only became flesh in Jesus at the Jordan making him Jesus Christ, the Word.
Nick,Father Yahweh's word was revealed in the flesh long before Yahshua came on the scene. Remember that Yahshua is the prophet like unto Moshe.
Frank,Jesus is greater than Mosses even though he is also a prophet like him.
kerwin,I made no mention that one was greater than the other.
Frank,Jesus is the Way; Abraham is not; who is the greater?
kerwin,I made no mention of Abraham in my post. I did make mention of Moshe though.
Both Abraham and Moshe were also the way to Yahweh in their time periods just as Yahshua is the way in this last time period.
You asks who is the greater of the prophets, right? Note what is said in the following:
Concerning Moshe:
Now Yahshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moshe had laid his hands on him. So the Ysrylites listened to him and did what Yahweh had commanded Moshe. Since then, no prophet has risen in Ysryl like Moshe, whom Yahweh knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders Yahweh sent him to do in Egypt–to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land (Deuteronomy 34:9-11).
Concerning Yahchanan the Immerser
I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than Yahchanan; yet the one who is least in the Kingdom of Yahweh is greater than he (Lukyah 7:28).
I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than Yahchanan the Immerser; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Yahweh he is greater than he (Mattithyah 11:11).
Note also that Yahshua said that the apostles, his students [“disciples”], and those who come after them would do greater works than he had done:
I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father (Yahcahnan 14:12).
Frank,Jesus is the Way they do greater works than he, himself.
kerwin,YOUR “Jesus” is not the way that I will ever go!
Frank,That is sad for all that go through him will be like God in true righteousness and holiness. That is why those who love sin will not come into the light.
God promises those that enter the new covenant they will stop sinning if they persevere.
kerwin,I certainly have no desire whatsoever to be like YOUR “God”.
One stops sinning when they repent and begin to obey Father Yahweh instruction (torah, law, commandment, precept, charge, teaching).
Father Yahweh's Instruction (Torah, Law, Commandment, Teaching)
Frank,I do not know who your God is but my God is the source of love; the sum of the law; God's Word.
I also do not know what method you believe you can use to obey God's command to love. There is only one way to love and that is to believe God's promise of righteousness; the Spirit of Love, that loves as he does.
I do know that you either love or you do not love and therefore when you sin you are not living by the Spirit; for the Spirit is in conflict with sinful desires and there is no sin in it. It is by the Spirit those that believe strive to live through faith and as their faith matures more and more they will do so until God becomes all in them; just as he is in his Son.
Quote (kerwin @ April 14 2012,09:16) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,23:54) Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,13:02) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,07:20) Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,12:16) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,06:16) Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,10:32) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,05:20) Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2012,15:07) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 12 2012,05:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2012,10:12) Hi FRank,
The Word was of the Spirit and only became flesh in Jesus at the Jordan making him Jesus Christ, the Word.
Nick,Father Yahweh's word was revealed in the flesh long before Yahshua came on the scene. Remember that Yahshua is the prophet like unto Moshe.
Frank,Jesus is greater than Mosses even though he is also a prophet like him.
kerwin,I made no mention that one was greater than the other.
Frank,Jesus is the Way; Abraham is not; who is the greater?
kerwin,I made no mention of Abraham in my post. I did make mention of Moshe though.
Both Abraham and Moshe were also the way to Yahweh in their time periods just as Yahshua is the way in this last time period.
You asks who is the greater of the prophets, right? Note what is said in the following:
Concerning Moshe:
Now Yahshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moshe had laid his hands on him. So the Ysrylites listened to him and did what Yahweh had commanded Moshe. Since then, no prophet has risen in Ysryl like Moshe, whom Yahweh knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders Yahweh sent him to do in Egypt–to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land (Deuteronomy 34:9-11).
Concerning Yahchanan the Immerser
I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than Yahchanan; yet the one who is least in the Kingdom of Yahweh is greater than he (Lukyah 7:28).
I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than Yahchanan the Immerser; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Yahweh he is greater than he (Mattithyah 11:11).
Note also that Yahshua said that the apostles, his students [“disciples”], and those who come after them would do greater works than he had done:
I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father (Yahcahnan 14:12).
Frank,Jesus is the Way they do greater works than he, himself.
kerwin,YOUR “Jesus” is not the way that I will ever go!
Frank,That is sad for all that go through him will be like God in true righteousness and holiness. That is why those who love sin will not come into the light.
God promises those that enter the new covenant they will stop sinning if they persevere.
kerwin,I certainly have no desire whatsoever to be like YOUR “God”.
One stops sinning when they repent and begin to obey Father Yahweh instruction (torah, law, commandment, precept, charge, teaching).
Father Yahweh's Instruction (Torah, Law, Commandment, Teaching)
Frank,I do not know who your God is but my God is the source of love; the sum of the law; God's Word.
I also do not know what method you believe you can use to obey God's command to love. There is only one way to love and that is to believe God's promise of righteousness; the Spirit of Love, that loves as he does.
I do know that you either love or you do not love and therefore when you sin you are not living by the Spirit; for the Spirit is in conflict with sinful desires and there is no sin in it. It is by the Spirit those that believe strive to live through faith and as their faith matures more and more they will do so until God becomes all in them; just as he is in his Son.
kerwin,I am no mere “God” worshiper. Father Yahweh is Love and the source of it:
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2012,09:59) Yes Frank,
The theologians do not understand the WORD in Christ.
Nick,I made no mention of any theologians!
Hi Frank,
Your articles do quote their opinions.
But theologians are straightened by their carnal minds as it does not require rebirth from above to join their ranks.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2012,10:22) Hi Frank,
Your articles do quote their opinions.
But theologians are straightened by their carnal minds as it does not require rebirth from above to join their ranks.
Bye Nick,This is not MY article. I was simply posting this article in hope that someone might come to understand from a Christian perspective that Yahshua did not pre-exist his birth as an actual being and was not LITERALLY his and our Father Yahweh's word and is not Yahweh [“God”] or “a god”.
FYI, a theologian is simply by definition in our English language one who studies religion and this can refer to any particular or specific religion or the study of all religious views.
I have never appreciated anything that you have ever said in opposition to my posts and I certainly believe that I ever will. As I have told you a number of times before, if you do not approve of what it is that I post, I would ask that you simply do not read (ignore) my post or respond to them. How hard is it for you to simply ignore what it is that I post and not respond to them if you do not approve of what it is that I post?
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 14 2012,10:08) kerwin, I am no mere “God” worshiper. Father Yahweh is Love and the source of it:
Shalom Frank,It would sure be nice if you knew how to spell their names correctly (GOD and God's only begotten son)! (Link)
B'shem, YHVH (YÄ-hä-vā)
עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34)Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 14 2012,11:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2012,10:22) Hi Frank,
Your articles do quote their opinions.
But theologians are straightened by their carnal minds as it does not require rebirth from above to join their ranks.
Bye Nick,This is not MY article.
Hi Frank,That's the reason why nobody reads them.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ April 14 2012,11:33) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 14 2012,11:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2012,10:22) Hi Frank,
Your articles do quote their opinions.
But theologians are straightened by their carnal minds as it does not require rebirth from above to join their ranks.
Bye Nick,This is not MY article.
Hi Frank,That's the reason why nobody reads them.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J,How is it that you think you know if anyone reads my posts or not? Do you fancy yourself as a clairvoyant or what?
FYI, I know for a fact that some do actually read my posts and the articles that I have presented here, since I have been told by some here in this thread that they have read them and also in private messages. In fact, a few people that have yet not posted in any of the threads that I have posted in here even mentioned and said things concerning you to me in private messages here.
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (jammin @ April 14 2012,12:07) sorry frank but you are confused LOL
take your vitamins
jammin,It is quite obvious to me and all here that you are!
you said:I am never proclaimed that Scripture says that the word in Yahchanan [John] 1:1 is the Father
now you said:I never admitted that the word was not the Father.
——-
you should take some vitamins LOL
you are confusedthe bible says that the father and the son have the same nature, GOD.that is what the bible says.
the father is GOD by nature.
the son is also GOD by nature.phil 2.5-6 Let Christ himself be your example as to what your attitude should be. For he, who had always been God by nature,
sorry boy but you need to study hard LOL
Quote (Ed J @ April 14 2012,11:29) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 14 2012,10:08) kerwin, I am no mere “God” worshiper. Father Yahweh is Love and the source of it:
Shalom Frank,It would sure be nice if you knew how to spell their names correctly (GOD and God's only begotten son)! (Link)
B'shem, YHVH (YÄ-hä-vā)
עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34)
Ed J,I do spell their names correctly in accordance with the English language that I speak and according to how their names are transliterated/transcribed into our English language. BTW, I did not ever bother to click on you foolish link!
Yahweh Is Our Heavenly Father And Creator's Name
Baal Gad
The LORD GodQuote (jammin @ April 14 2012,12:31) you said:I am never proclaimed that Scripture says that the word in Yahchanan [John] 1:1 is the Father now you said:I never admitted that the word was not the Father.
——-
you should take some vitamins LOL
you are confusedthe bible says that the father and the son have the same nature, GOD.that is what the bible says.
the father is GOD by nature.
the son is also GOD by nature.phil 2.5-6 Let Christ himself be your example as to what your attitude should be. For he, who had always been God by nature,
sorry boy but you need to study hard LOL
jammin,Is that the best that you can do is to repeat a post that I have already responded to as follows:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….st=1770
Frank
You wrote
Quote kerwin, I am no mere “God” worshiper. Father Yahweh is Love and the source of it:
Then you know there is but one command that in obeying you obey the whole law and prophets of God; and that command is love. It is obeyed by living by the Spirit of God; which is both received and lived according to; by faith. In this way one worships God by the Spirit of love.
God personalizes his Word; which is love; as does Jesus; though God is the Source.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2012,04:54) Hi KW,
Does the striving of men really assist the work of God?
Be still and know that I am God
Nick,1 Corinthians 9:25
King James Version (KJV)25And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
You are correct that the striving is not through human effort but by faith; which bears the fruit of love.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
