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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,12:54) Hi 94,
The last verse includes these other sheep, found righteous by their actions towards Christ in his brothers, and who are pleasantly surprised to be saved in the second resurrection, according to mt25
No Nick:The last verse of the scripture that I quoted refers to the sheep that would follow Jesus from the gentile nations. You can not be a sheep unless you follow the Shepherd.
Hi 94,
Any evidence for this claim? There is no longer Jew nor gentile in Christ-all are sheep of one fold. the verse rather speaks of separation, and 1000 years is a significant separation between the folds of sheep.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,13:05) Hi 94,
Any evidence for this claim? There is no longer Jew nor gentile in Christ-all are sheep of one fold. the verse rather speaks of separation, and 1000 years is a significant separation between the folds of sheep.
No Nick:You are trying interpret the scripture that I quoted to fit your belief relative to Matthew 25 which I don't believe is correct.
You are right about there being one Shepherd and one Fold but Jesus first preached to the Jews as a Nation, and then delegated his disciples with authority to preach the gospel to all nations. There is no Jew or gentile, male or female in the spirit of Christ.
Hi 94,
Exactly.
Who are the sheep of Mt25 if they are not another fold?Mt 25
” 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”
They do not know they are saved.
They do not expect salvation.
They cannot point to the blood or the Spirit or the water as evidence[1Jn5.7f].
They are saved by their works taken as righteousness in response to the promise of Jesus that no one will give his disciples a cup of water because they belong to him and not lose their reward.Mk 9
“Mark 9:41
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.”Hi not3
James 2:13
For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.I believe far more will find mercy than will find the way of Jesus.
Ah, I've thought this too. It's not a very popular teaching from the pulpit, however. Sad but true……
Yes, here's to MERCY!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,13:41) Hi 94,
Exactly.
Who are the sheep of Mt25 if they are not another fold?Mt 25
” 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”
They do not know they are saved.
They do not expect salvation.
They cannot point to the blood or the Spirit or the water as evidence[1Jn5.7f].
They are saved by their works taken as righteousness in response to the promise of Jesus that no one will give his disciples a cup of water because they belong to him and not lose their reward.Mk 9
“Mark 9:41
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.”
Hi Nick:I understand this to mean that which commonly referred as the rapture when the sheep who have followed Jesus will go into life eternal and those who have not will suffer eternal punishement.
Perhaps what is confusing to you is that the scipture says, “before him will be gathered all nations”, but we need to try to understand this from the standpoint of John 3:16-19, and those verses I have already quoted. You can not be a sheep unless you have followed the Shepherd.
I believe that all of the illustrations in Matthew 25 relate to this.
Also, I thought that the following scipture might help:
Rev. 22:10
And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.Hi 94,
Mt 25 seems to speak clearly of those in the first resurrection facing the tribunal of reward of Christ[v1-32] and then from v 32 the second resurrection after the 1000 yr reign[rev 20] when the final judgement of those who have not already passed from death to life[jn5] occurs.Hi Nick:
I missed the last part of your post relative to the fact that these did not know that they were saved. I'll have to do a little studying before I give you my understanding. I believe that Jesus uses this to illustrate a point, but I'll get back to you on this after some prayer to God asking for understanding.
Hi 94,
Certainly v 1-13 refers to the rapture, sorry. And the necessary oil is the Spirit of God alive and active in the sons of God eagerly awaiting his return.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,13:41) Hi 94,
Exactly.
Who are the sheep of Mt25 if they are not another fold?Mt 25
” 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”
They do not know they are saved.
They do not expect salvation.
They cannot point to the blood or the Spirit or the water as evidence[1Jn5.7f].
They are saved by their works taken as righteousness in response to the promise of Jesus that no one will give his disciples a cup of water because they belong to him and not lose their reward.Mk 9
“Mark 9:41
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.”
Hi Nick:The scripture does not say that the righteous to whom Jesus is talking do not know that they are saved but what they do not know is that by doing those good deeds mentioned to his disciples they were in essence doing unto Jesus personally.
Matt.25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
25:35
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
25:36
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
25:37
THEN SHALL THE RIGHTEOUS ANSWER HIM, SAYING, LORD, WHEN SAW WE THEE AND HUNGERED, and FED THEE? OR THRISTY, AND GAVE THEE DRINK ?
25:38
* When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in ? or naked, and clothed thee?
25:39
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
25:40
AND THE KING SHALL ANSWER AND SAY UNTO THEM, VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, INASMUCH AS YE HAVE DONE IT UNTO ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE MY BRETHREN, YE HAVE DONE IT UNTO ME.Maybe this will help. I have to go for the night.
God Bless
Hi 94,
Are you hoping for salvation by works?
If so you may find mercy in the second resurrection but only if those works are done to those in Christ.
If you follow the way of Jesus it is his works not ours, that save us.William Tyndale was not so sure that John's “word” was on-to-one the equivalent of Chist pre-existing. He renders the famous verses: “In the beginning was the word [with lower case], and the word was with God, and the word was God….All things were made by it….In it was life.”
It seems strange that John 1:1-4, a handful of verses in John, and a few other NT passages should be allowed to overthrow the constant and massive biblical evidence for unitary monotheism.
John does not present Jesus as an eternal member of a Triune Godhead but as the fulfillment of God's eternal plan to bring into being the Messiah. For John, as well as for Paul, Jesus pre-existed in the mind and purpose of God, rather than literally as a timeless being.
Hi not3,
You say
“For John, as well as for Paul, Jesus pre-existed in the mind and purpose of God, rather than literally as a timeless being. “
Was the Word, being as you see it in the mind of God, truly WITH GOD?Spliting hairs (in/with) – both can mean to contain and have very similar meanings.
A man's “word” is the expression of his “mind.”
Where does God say that the word in John 1:1 is beloved?
I'm just trying to reconcile a preexistent Son with the rest of scripture. The “Word” means something different, it seems, to so many. You think it is a spirit son. David thinks it is an angel. WJ thinks it is part of the Trinity………sigh.- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
